Serve speed guns/radar

[LeeD]

So, let's take a Formula 1 car. It's track speed is about 180 on the fastest tracks. So is that the top speed of a Formula 1 car, 180?
We know they can easily exceed 275 if geared correctly and the straightway is long enough.
At Darlington, Talledega, and Daytona, the fastest NASCAR's go just around 210 on the banking. Is that the fastest a NASCAR can go?

[Andres]

Useless to use an analogy in this case. Why even bother using a racing analogy? We're talking about humans. Comparing apples and oranges.

I already said I agreed with you, Lee.

[Andres]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Well, that 139mph was at Davis Cup, and so was Goran's actually. It's just that Sampras never hit over 128mph until those new guns came in, and when he did the fastest serve he ever hit in 2-3 years of new guns on the ordinary tour was 136mph-137mph, so it's hard to see where the top serve of 145mph could come from.

Found the match I was talking about.
Sampras vs. Safin, USO 1998
Two minutes into the match, 1st serve on his second service game, he cranks up a 130 mph serve after Safin hitting 132 mph.

I'll keep editing this message as soon as I see new serves over 128

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBiU55zOHck

130 mph, 2:15

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by NonP

I actually don't think Pete and Rafa are that far apart in top-end speeds. IMO Pete's would top out around low 140s. Maybe mid-140s would be doable, but they'd be very rare.



Probably not. As I just said on the other thread, the new racquets and strings do most likely help increase average serve speeds, but not so much in the top range. Of course there's also the fact that he's no longer 24 years old.



It's really hard to know which ones are more "accurate," unless somebody can go back and research the radar at every one of the events. It's important to keep in mind that the radar guns aren't uniform across the tour even today. Never have been, and probably never will be. The outliers at Davis Cup and Queen's are the ones we only know of, there could well be others in use right now that we still have no clue about. The one that captured Samuel Groth's new "record" comes to mind (provided that it wasn't a radar malfunction).



Yes, there's no doubt that the new guns came into wide use around this time frame.



This sounds about right, though, again, I'd shave off a couple mph. Boris could approach 150, but not IMO top it.



And everything here is pretty much bang on. Krajicek probably had the bigger bomb down the T (arguably the best ever), but Goran was the king out wide, especially on the deuce court.

BTW I love that Goran video you referenced. Apart from the serve he was playing with so much abandon and confidence in that match, and moving awfully well for a 6'4"er. It's a shame he didn't play with the same confidence more often at the majors. Or maybe not, we don't wanna spoil his 2001 Wimbledon run in any way.

I don't think the issue is so much the accuracy of the radar guns as it is where the speed is measured. My understanding is that until fairly recently, the speed was measured as the ball crossed the net and now it's measured immediately after contact. That would make a significant difference.

[LeeD]

Andres, you got a point.
BobGibson, human.
Most games, his fastest speeds were clocked in the higher 90's. For the spring of one year, lower 100's. But would his pitches go faster in practice?
JaMarcus's longest every game throw was about 80 yards. He could throw 110 in practice, from goal line to goal post. How far can JaMarcus throw?

[LeeD]

And how can we account for ColinDibley serving at 149 in 1977? VictorAmaya 144. StanSmith 124. RaulRameriz 132. Seems accurate, having seen all those guys at courtside.

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by Andres

Disagreed on Sampras. In fact, he was hitting 135 mph in 1998, USO 4th round, against Safin. No Getronic guns. I found the match on Youtube, lemme link you to that particular serve

He hit 135mph in 1998?

Wow, I never knew that. Well that changes everything I suppose.

But were there changes to the speed guns in the 90's? I mean 1 minute Goran, Sampras Becker and even Lendl in 1991-1992 are serving 118mph-125mph on average and mid 90's Goran's 136mph is the world record, then in the late 90's Sampras is suddenly hitting 135mph (7mph faster than his lifetime best of 128mph in 1994) and Scud and Rusedski are serving 140mph+? What happened in that 3 year period?

[bjk]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Out to lunch.
BobGibson had a faster fastball than NolanRyan, for sure, and Nolan was clocked at 99.
A young RandyJohnson just exceeded the 100 barrier, but not the older RandyJohnson with the SFGiants.
You guys are out to lunch. You only quote tournament speeds. THINK, which you don't do. In a tournament, the player is trying for placement AND percentage, both of which slow the ball speeds down. All players can serve FASTER than their tournament recorded speeds.
Just like you and me. NOBODY sees our best days. EVERYONE sees our worse days...

Your examples are all at least 20 years old. Gibson is close to half a century old. Anecdata fail.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Andres

Found the match I was talking about.
Sampras vs. Safin, USO 1998
Two minutes into the match, 1st serve on his second service game, he cranks up a 130 mph serve after Safin hitting 132 mph.

I'll keep editing this message as soon as I see new serves over 128

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBiU55zOHck

130 mph, 2:15

That 132mph serve by Safin at about 1:50 looked more like one of Roddick's 145mph serves. And, before that, Safins ace out wide was called at 118mph. WHAT A JOKE! David Ferrer hits bigger than that today, and there's no comparison between that Safin ace and any serve Ferrer has ever hit, ever.

[NonP]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I don't think the issue is so much the accuracy of the radar guns as it is where the speed is measured. My understanding is that until fairly recently, the speed was measured as the ball crossed the net and now it's measured immediately after contact. That would make a significant difference.

Yes, that was indeed the case until the turn of the century. Whatever differences between the relatively recent radar guns are probably marginal at best. The phased-array radar, though, does time the ball in more dimensions than the IBM radar guns, so in that sense this new technology is more accurate, if not widely used (yet).

[NLBwell]

Originally Posted by Andres

And of course, there's no use of having a 160 mph serve if you can't bring it to the court in matchplay.

Taylor Dent hit a serve around 150 (don't remember # exactly) against Agassi and still lost the point.

[LeeD]

Yeah, it's better to have a 93 mph serve as your fastest, because that's about the average of some former No1's in the world....Connors, Agassi, McEnroe.

[NLBwell]

^
??????????
What does that mean?

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by NonP

Yes, that was indeed the case until the turn of the century. Whatever differences between the relatively recent radar guns are probably marginal at best. The phased-array radar, though, does time the ball in more dimensions than the IBM radar guns, so in that sense this new technology is more accurate, if not widely used (yet).

In 1959, Gonzales was measured at 112 mph, and Hoad at 110 mph. These were the two hardest hitters of their era, harder than Laver or Emerson, so how do you explain the discrepancy?
The answer is where the ball is measured, because it is fastest right off the raquet face, where it is measured today, and slows down by the time it reaches the returner at the opposite baseline.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

In 1959, Gonzales was measured at 112 mph, and Hoad at 110 mph. These were the two hardest hitters of their era, harder than Laver or Emerson, so how do you explain the discrepancy?
The answer is where the ball is measured, because it is fastest right off the raquet face, where it is measured today, and slows down by the time it reaches the returner at the opposite baseline.

If memory serves (no pun), you are referring to forehand speeds, not serve speeds. In any event, what you are saying is consistent with what NonP is saying - they changed the location to measure serve speeds from when the ball passed over the net to immediately after contact. NonP seems to think that change occurred around 2000. I thought it was a little later than that. But, there seems to be no dispute that a change was made.

[PrinceMoron]

Originally Posted by LeeD

The Pistol hit with huge amounts of top/slice spin, so his ball speed was never as fast as the pure flat hitters, but it was more effective with the spin.
ColinDibley hit 149's back in 1977, while tall guys known for big serves, like StanSmith, around 124. VictorAmaya was at the 144 range...at 6'6" and maybe 210 lbs., a serving behemoth.
JohannKriek, at 5'8" or so, hit into the 127's, with huge spin similar to Pete's.
KevinCurran at 6'3" hit into the 138's.
The new guys don't hit harder, no do they volley any better than those guys. The new guys are much fitter, change directions better, run faster, and hit much stronger groundstrokes.

And Steve Denton did it with that moustache into the wind.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

If memory serves (no pun), you are referring to forehand speeds, not serve speeds. In any event, what you are saying is consistent with what NonP is saying - they changed the location to measure serve speeds from when the ball passed over the net to immediately after contact. NonP seems to think that change occurred around 2000. I thought it was a little later than that. But, there seems to be no dispute that a change was made.

No, these were reputed to be "cannonball" first serves in the tests, using 1959 equipment. Reported in SI, 1959 and 1960.

[LeeD]

I doubt they changed the position, or if they did, it'd make little difference.
ColinDibley was known for the biggest serve in the '70's. He's almost 6'4", super long gangly arms, had almost no game like Dr.Ivo, and the serve allowed him to stay on the tour for a few years.
VictorAmaya was a lefty, 6'6" tall, and as strong as Phillipousis/Kraijeck/Raonic.
Those guys would be in the top 15 in service speeds today. You can teach 6'6".
The fact that most "normal" pros, from Kriek through Stockton, Rameriz, all served in the lowest 130's, or high 120's, makes it seem reasonable.
I'd say Milos and Dr.Ivo, with Andy, still have the highest serve speeds, but the old farts weren't all that far behind.
Most of you have played tennis with wood rackets. Some of you actually got to a decent level. You know the actual speed between wood and HeadPros or YonexGreens was only about 5 mph.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I doubt they changed the position, or if they did, it'd make little difference.
ColinDibley was known for the biggest serve in the '70's. He's almost 6'4", super long gangly arms, had almost no game like Dr.Ivo, and the serve allowed him to stay on the tour for a few years.
VictorAmaya was a lefty, 6'6" tall, and as strong as Phillipousis/Kraijeck/Raonic.
Those guys would be in the top 15 in service speeds today. You can teach 6'6".
The fact that most "normal" pros, from Kriek through Stockton, Rameriz, all served in the lowest 130's, or high 120's, makes it seem reasonable.
I'd say Milos and Dr.Ivo, with Andy, still have the highest serve speeds, but the old farts weren't all that far behind.
Most of you have played tennis with wood rackets. Some of you actually got to a decent level. You know the actual speed between wood and HeadPros or YonexGreens was only about 5 mph.

You are presuming that the practice of measuring serve speed at the net in the 90's was what was practiced in the 80's and 70's. I don't know that to be true, or whether there was any uniform method of measuring serve speed in any of those decades.

[LeeD]

Don't think it really affected the speeds.
In the '90's, Phillipousis and Kraijeck has serves into the highest 130's, and both hit first serves with some spin, not dead flat. Goran hit with a little spin also. In the '80's, Tanner's serve were indeed tough, but not as fast as the fastest because he also hit with some spin. Rudseski always was noted to hit into the 140's in the '90's, and he hit really flat when going up the T in ad court.
We know Sampras hit with heavy spin, into the lowest 130's. I'd bet, had he flattenned it out, it'd go into the 140's, but he never did.
Speeds seem very consistent thru the years.
In 1977, LowellBarnhardt won the amateur division at GoldenGateway. His 129 + a fraction was hit with heavy spin. He was known to hit the fastest serves at GoldenGatePark in SanFrancisco, even throwing in the A level players. One of the top 5 A players, PeterPearson, who qualified for the first round, probably realistically served around 100. He played BobbyLutz, who's serve certainly seemed at least 30 mph faster than Peters.
As I say, the modern players are more fit, run baseline to baseline faster, hit much harder groundstrokes, have weaker volleys, and about the same service speeds.