Gonzales VS Rosewall: The Ultimate Battle Fight 2 - More Impressive Career?

[Mustard]

The 1963 US Pro was the tournament where Gonzales came out of an 18 month retirement having negotiated a guaranteed $5,000 fee. The tournament was back at Forest Hills for the first time since Segura's 1951 triumph, yet was a financial disaster and none of the other players were paid a dime.

This was kind of ironic considering how angry Gonzales regularly was about newly turned professionals being paid more than him.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I also must contradict you when you say that Hoad was dominating Rosewall on clay. I just cannot trust your 16:7 balance of Hoad on clay for 1957.

When was this? I ask because Lew Hoad was still an amateur until after he retained his Wimbledon title in 1957 by demolishing Ashley Cooper.

[BobbyOne]

Mustard,

Four pros including rookie pro Hoad played a tour in Europe, Africa,and Asia from August, 1957 onward, in Europe partly on clay.

[TomT]

I voted for Rosewall, but only because I've seen more videos of him, and because (being younger than Gonzalez) he was still playing and doing well in majors when I first started playing.

Both of these guys, amazingly, were top 10 players for 20 years or so. Gonzalez was the consensus best in the world for more years than Rosewall. But then Rosewall was either the best or co-best for almost as many years -- because of Laver, who, imo, has to be considered right along with these guys.

Both Gonzalez and Rosewall were still beating top 10 pros when they were in their 40's. Just amazing to me.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Nice thread NN. I always like to hear what people have to say about past tennis greats. Wish there was more clear video on them. I love watching their games and technique with the wooden rackets.

By the way, I did have the opportunity to watch some top pro players, up close, using the wooden rackets during the early and mid '70s. I remember seeing Cliff Drysdale in a World Team Tennis match in Miami (I forget the specific year, maybe 1975?), and marveling at his shots. That guy could really stroke the ball. I think he played Rosewall in some Grand Masters matches when they were both off the tour. Not sure what the head to head was.

[BobbyOne]

TomT,

I appreciate you as true expert and real fan of tennis.

A poster recently doubted recently Drysdale's status as great player...

Rosewallrysdale 11:4 in head-to-head.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TomT,

I appreciate you as true expert and real fan of tennis.

A poster recently doubted recently Drysdale's status as great player...

Rosewallrysdale 11:4 in head-to-head.

I'm a fan, certainly no expert. Rosewall was 7 years older than Drysdale. I guess my point was that, having seen Drysdale play in person up close, and being amazed at how well he hit the ball, then if Rosewall could beat him ... well, he had to be some kind of great player to do that.

[BobbyOne]

TomT,

Your modest attitude honours you, but for me every person is an expert who praises Rosewall and Gonzalez and who appreciates Drysdale's game.

In comparison many so called experts tend to denigrate both Pancho and Muscles. For instance Tennis Channel in their recent rankings put Rosewall at place 14 and Gonzalez at place 22 which was a heavy scandal. Another example was famous Harry Hopman who ranked Rosewall behind of Emerson (maybe because Harry hated those Aussies who turned pro).

Yes, Rosewall was much older than Drysdale when they met. Muscles was 33 plus when they first met.

That Miami WTT match must have been in 1974 or 1976 because Rosewall did not play WTT in 1975.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TomT,

I appreciate you as true expert and real fan of tennis.

A poster recently doubted recently Drysdale's status as great player...

Rosewallrysdale 11:4 in head-to-head.

Rosewall had trouble with 2hb's.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by TomT

I'm a fan, certainly no expert. Rosewall was 7 years older than Drysdale. I guess my point was that, having seen Drysdale play in person up close, and being amazed at how well he hit the ball, then if Rosewall could beat him ... well, he had to be some kind of great player to do that.

I've seen both Rosewall and Drysdale play live, up close. Drysdale had a big serve and his backhand was, arguably, as great as Rosewall's. Certainly one of the great groundstrokes of his day. But, his forehand was not at that level. Rosewall had a better forehand, better net play, and better mobility.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TomT,

Your modest attitude honours you, but for me every person is an expert who praises Rosewall and Gonzalez and who appreciates Drysdale's game.

In comparison many so called experts tend to denigrate both Pancho and Muscles. For instance Tennis Channel in their recent rankings put Rosewall at place 14 and Gonzalez at place 22 which was a heavy scandal. Another example was famous Harry Hopman who ranked Rosewall behind of Emerson (maybe because Harry hated those Aussies who turned pro).

Yes, Rosewall was much older than Drysdale when they met. Muscles was 33 plus when they first met.

That Miami WTT match must have been in 1974 or 1976 because Rosewall did not play WTT in 1975.

Thanks. Yeah, I agree that it's pretty much a scandal to put Rosewall and Gonzalez at 14 and 22, respectively.

Regarding the Miami WTT match. I don't think Rosewall was there. Just Drysdale. I think I remember Jeanie Evert (Chris's sister) and Rosie Casals being there, and thinking, jeez, I probably will never be able to hit the ball as well as these women, much less Drysdale.

It was really a lot of fun to see them play, indoors on carpet, and so close.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I've seen both Rosewall and Drysdale play live, up close. Drysdale had a big serve and his backhand was, arguably, as great as Rosewall's. Certainly one of the great groundstrokes of his day. But, his forehand was not at that level. Rosewall had a better forehand, better net play, and better mobility.

Wow, you're fortunate to have been able to see those guys. Rosewall was a real shotmaker, eh? Was he the guy they called the Doomsday Stroker?

[TomT]

By the way, I've been trying to find the quote from Gonzalez where he had some very nice things to say about Rosewall's game. One thing I remember was that he said Rosewall was quite capable of hitting the ball with a LOT of pace.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by TomT

Wow, you're fortunate to have been able to see those guys. Rosewall was a real shotmaker, eh? Was he the guy they called the Doomsday Stroker?

They called him the Doomsday Stroking Machine. I love that name. I believe it means that he could hit groundstrokes until Doomsday.

[BobbyOne]

TomT,

Yes, Rosewall was called the Doomsday Stroking Machine, at least Bud Collins probably gave him that title. More familiar were Muscles and The Little Master.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by pc1

They called him the Doomsday Stroking Machine. I love that name. I believe it means that he could hit groundstrokes until Doomsday.

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TomT,

Yes, Rosewall was called the Doomsday Stroking Machine, at least Bud Collins probably gave him that title. More familiar were Muscles and The Little Master.

Gotta love Bud Collins. Remembering his comments brings back a lot of fond memories from those years when I was a tennis bum.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by TomT

Gotta love Bud Collins. Remembering his comments brings back a lot of fond memories from those years when I was a tennis bum.

Bud Collins is a great historian of the game and I loved his commentary. I vaguely remember a match which was tied in games in the final set. Collins made the comment "We hoped the match would be closer" or at least words to that effect. I almost fell off my chair laughing.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by pc1

Bud Collins is a great historian of the game and I loved his commentary. I vaguely remember a match which was tied in games in the final set. Collins made the comment "We hoped the match would be closer" or at least words to that effect. I almost fell off my chair laughing.

Yeah. I also enjoyed Vic Braden's comments in the second video provided by the OP ... about once having the job of consoling people who Gonzalez might have slighted. I remember him commenting on Harold Solomon's game, saying something to the effect that if you can learn to hit, say, 500 balls in a row back to the center of the court then you can have a house full of MONEY!

But, apologies, I've been getting a bit off topic.

After having thought about it a bit more, I think I would have to vote for Gonzalez. Ok, I changed my mind. Is that a big deal? This is, at least somewhat, I suppose, a learning experience for those of us who have never really researched this stuff.

But I still prefer the way Rosewall played. Maybe just because Gonzalez was, in his prime, just too good to even identify with. I don't know. In fact, I have no idea ... but it's fun remembering these great players.

Need more videos. Would love to see more of Budge's and Kramer's playing.

[BobbyOne]

TomT,

I respect your opinion but tell me why you switched over to Gonzalez? At least the achievements of both players as Nathaniel Near has brought them on the top of this thread suggest that Rosewall has the edge (most impressive the 23 big titles of Muscles).

But I concede that Gonzalez is clearly ahead in hth and that he won those big world series which are fantastic.

Gonzalez rather won with his great service (arguable the best at all), Rosewall rather won by accuracy and touch.

As earlier written I believe that both players deserve a place in the top four all-times.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TomT,

I respect your opinion but tell me why you switched over to Gonzalez? At least the achievements of both players as Nathaniel Near has brought them on the top of this thread suggest that Rosewall has the edge (most impressive the 23 big titles of Muscles).

But I concede that Gonzalez is clearly ahead in hth and that he won those big world series which are fantastic.

Gonzalez rather won with his great service (arguable the best at all), Rosewall rather won by accuracy and touch.

As earlier written I believe that both players deserve a place in the top four all-times.

I switched because of Gonzalez's edge in hth, because he was the consensus best for more years, and because of his impact on tennis.

With that said, I actually like Rosewall's game better. What a joy to watch, as they all were of course. But Rosewall especially ... for me at least.

There's no deciding these issues I think, but it's good to have discussions about them as they provide interesting insights. I have this vision of the great players of the '50s and '60s as being some sorts of court magicians. I suspect that if I see videos of the great players of the '30s and '40s then I'll think the same about them.

Of course I have to keep in mind that it was a somewhat different game due to the equipment. The thing is that I played almost all of my tennis in the mid '70s, so I can identify with that era, and also somewhat with immediately preceding eras of wood racket tennis.

I recently took some of my old wood rackets to the courts for some practice hitting. Interestingly (or maybe not) I found that I was able to hit just as well, just as hard, with them as with my modern rackets. The only difference that I noticed was that the modern rackets felt a little better.

[BobbyOne]

TomT,

Thanks for the explaining.

Regarding hth it's maybe only the first glimps that Gonzalez "owned" Rosewall.

In Rosewall's favour we could say that in their first series Muscles was too poung for the pro king and that these two giants of tennis mostly played indoors where Gonzalez was the undisputed master and indoors was Rosewall's "worst" surface (even though he won there his most big titles).

Regarding more years of Pancho I would like to say (as I have already done in another thread that Muscles was arguably No.1 or Co.-No.1 for nine years. But I concede that Pancho dominated more clearly when being No.1.

By the way, it might be of interest that only Gonzalez, Laver, Roche, Connors and Borg of the top opponents of Rosewall have a positive balance against the Little Master.

You are right that Gonzalez did more of popularizing our sport, especially in the U.S.