Better serve: McEnroe or Federer

[AnotherTennisProdigy]

^^
Agreed. During the Olympic semi vs Delpo the only thing keeping Fed in the match was his serve.

[TheFifthSet]

yup, agreed. its not krajicek or sampras's serve but it's pretty prolific.

[namui]

McEnroe's serve has never been off. Its deception is one of a kind. So on effectiveness, I vote for his. But on efficiency, Fed's serve, belonging to the modern era, is clearly faster and probably more heavy. Overall, I vote "close".

[timnz]

Originally Posted by Smasher08

Good poast, but do remember that Fed didn't have racket technology completely change on him when he was 23. Had rackets stayed wood, J-Mac would've won a lot more than 7.

McEnroe himself benefited from the arrival of graphite. He switched to graphite around April of 1983 - and immediately beat Lendl (narrowly though - 5th set tie breaker) in his first tournament with it - the WCT finals. He then had his great 1984 year - I don't think he would have had that year if not for the new racket. (Obviously his skill and talent was a big part of that - but I dont' know if it would have been as dominating without that new racket).

[Gut Check]

Originally Posted by gennosuke

1. Tradition. Back then, the equipment didn't allow for consistent agression from the baseline, so you had to aproach if you wanted to be aggressive.

2. I never said he'd win more if he stayed back. However, looking at SnV guys even as late as the 90s, their holding stats are lower than baseliners. SnV is risky, if you are a little sloppy, you miss the volleys.

You are over reaching. The simple answer is that Mac, even with his clever use of modest baseline abilities (limited largely by the same grip that was so effective for him in other aspects of the game) was always going to win more points and hold more often by taking the net than hanging back. Mac isn't stupid. If he thought he'd hold more often playing the baseline, that's what he would have done.

[abmk]

its close, but I'll take federer's ...

[abmk]

Originally Posted by TheFifthSet

I'd say it's pretty debatable. And for the poster that said otherwise, Federer sure does rely A LOT on his serve - 2007-2009 Wimby final, 2012 Olympic Semi can vouch for that.

add the wimbledon 2012 semi as another example. Djoker couldn't even make a dent on his 2nd serve ......

[TheFifthSet]

Originally Posted by abmk

add the wimbledon 2012 semi as another example. Djoker couldn't even make a dent on his 2nd serve ......

yeah he really put on a clinic there, 26/36 points won on his second serve, amazing....

[Smasher08]

Originally Posted by timnz

McEnroe himself benefited from the arrival of graphite. He switched to graphite around April of 1983 - and immediately beat Lendl (narrowly though - 5th set tie breaker) in his first tournament with it - the WCT finals. He then had his great 1984 year - I don't think he would have had that year if not for the new racket. (Obviously his skill and talent was a big part of that - but I dont' know if it would have been as dominating without that new racket).

Sorry, I disagree completely with you here. Mac's game was based on touch -- his continental finesse game was a product of the wood era. He caused Borg to retire while still playing with wood. And it took a couple of years for players like Lendl to figure out that their new sticks would allow them to go for huge shots right off the bat.

At first players kept playing their wood games with the new sticks, then by 1985 it changed. Touch games were suddenly obsolete and the power game arrived.

Mac's talent and playing style would've enabled him to dominate in 84 no matter what the material of his stick. His 200G didn't fundamentally change the style of his game.

[Wilander Fan]

Tough one. Mac's was more of a weapon and Fed can get a little too cute with all his variety. They were both similar in that they were location servers but Fed has better accuracy and deception as well as consistency but Mac also had unreal movement.

I dont think Mac would be as effective today with his serve as he was then simply because he relied so heavily on his slice wide and HCs today have taken the bite out of the slice. OTOH, Fed would probably be even better in the 80s since his serve would set up so many volley winners.

[Start da Game]

federer's first serve is miles ahead, the second serve is debatable......

[Wilander Fan]

Also, its difficult to think of another great player that would have been so negatively effected by the modern game. Although clearly one of the GOAT, peak Mac would struggle to be a top 100 player today.

I dont think Lendle started beating on Mac due to technology. That heavy little addidas spoon he used to hit with was barely better than a wooden racket. Lendl started getting serious about conditioning and his game in general while Mac started spending more time hanging out with rock bands and actresses. His conditioning suffered and he just got slow. There were plenty of If you want to know what has happened to Novak's tennis, you just need to see that he is making cameos in movies now.

[Wilander Fan]

For instance, Fed's slow slice wide at the USO on match point skids out 20 years ago for a weak pop up. Last year it sits up and gets slammed back for a return winner.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by AnotherTennisProdigy

Here are some serving stats-

Federer-

First serve - 63%
First serve points won - 78%
Second serve points won - 60%
Service games won - 91%
Service points won - 71%

McEnroe

First serve - 52%
First serve points won - 67%
Second serve points won - 42%
Service games won - 70%
Service points won - 55%

The stats are favoring Fed even though I voted McEnroe. It seems that McEnroe struggles much more with his second serve than Federer does.

Regarding points won on serves, you don't suppose that has anything to do with the rest of Federer's game?

[DeShaun]

Originally Posted by Ramon

Regarding points won on serves, you don't suppose that has anything to do with the rest of Federer's game?

That would be McEnroe's problem. Uless the serve exists apart from its supporting constituents? Everybody's serve is integrated with and dependent on the rest of his game. It should be long and arduous to keep them apart.