Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

NonP, I'm sorry for "liar" but I have clearly shown that you have changed your mind within of a few minutes (I have quoted your words). I use to read the words of posters very carefully...

Your high opinion of unfeeling Haydn shows me that you have not been impressed by classic music that much. You probably have not "understood" Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert...

The next changing of your mind: You yet have insinuated I should change my opinion. Every reader can read your words clearly.


You have not understood my admiration for Rosewall. I never admired Muscles alone. I also admire Laver, Gonzalez,Roche, Tilden, Vines, Nüsslein, Kovacs, Segura, Gimeno and others. I specially admire those who are underrated by the fans and experts.

Then you must admire Kodes and Stolle who are underrated
Kodes equals Vines while Stolly doubles Roche whom he baggeled in the RG final that, of course, Stolle won

[pc1]

Originally Posted by NonP

Rafa should be in there if we're going to include anyone other than the Magnificent Seven (Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Sampras & Federer).

Nole I agree is not there yet. I frankly must say, as a fan, that his peak tends to be overrated these days. I'm fairly confident that Pete & Fed had a higher gear than Novak, and that if they were to play each other in that fantasy matchup series Nole would have a losing record, however slight the margin might be. And trust me, I was one of his biggest supporters long before most of us had even heard of him.



I haven't changed my tune a bit. I clearly made an additional point or two after the comment you referred to.



Actually Hadyn is not one of my favorites, and Bach is hands down the GOAT in my book, with Mozart and Beethoven right behind (though I find much of Wolfgang's oeuvre too polite and innocuous). Schubert is somewhere in the top 10 but not in the same exalted group. Still I'd never say a composer's of Haydn's importance and invention was some kind of a second-rate mug. Same thing with Wagner whose music often bores me to tears.



When you try to persuade the implicit purpose is to change the audience's opinion. When it became clear that you would not change yours I simply suggested that we agree to disagree. There was nothing muddled about my position.



That's not what I was talking about. Anyway it's best not to get into it here, as this "discussion" has taken on a life of its own where it shouldn't have.

It's hard to say with Djokovic because his great year of 2011 was superior to any year Sampras has had. It's up there with any year in the Open Year. Do I think Djokovic is as skilled as Sampras? Maybe not but one major thing that Djokovic has over almost anyone in the Open Era is his unbelievable backhand. He can do far more off the backhand than Sampras, Federer, Becker, Lendl and I believe Nadal in my opinion. To me that is huge because obviously hitting the backhand is a major part of your groundies. I think one of the great reasons that Djokovic is so mobility is that he doesn't have to cheat to cover his backhand as many players do to hit an offensive shot but he can do that easily with his backhand. I've seen Federer, despite his excellent mobility get burnt by shots to the open forehand side because he's moved over to his backhand side to hit his excellent backhand.

Djokovic can attack off shots to the backhand that most players would have to play defensively. I've seen very few in the Open Era that can do that as well as Djokovic. I think Connors, Borg, Rosewall and Laver did it on the same level but very few.

[kiki]

Budge won the big thing he must be included
It amazes me he is not

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

Budge won the big thing he must be included
It amazes me he is not

He's up there but I feel he's vastly overrated because so many in the past have called him the GOAT and I don't see it judging by his record. I guess if I have Segura there I should put Budge there. Actually Riggs should be there also. I'll change it.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by pc1

It's hard to say with Djokovic because his great year of 2011 was superior to any year Sampras has had. It's up there with any year in the Open Year. Do I think Djokovic is as skilled as Sampras? Maybe not but one major thing that Djokovic has over almost anyone in the Open Era is his unbelievable backhand. He can do far more off the backhand than Sampras, Federer, Becker, Lendl and I believe Nadal in my opinion. To me that is huge because obviously hitting the backhand is a major part of your groundies.

I can see NonP's point .... while Novak's 2011 is superior to any year sampras had, I think NonP was referring to more to match wise peak ... and let's not forget that one point could've shifted Novak's 2011 from an ATG season to just a very very good season ... ( fed had MPs vs him @ the USO )

Originally Posted by pc1

I think one of the great reasons that Djokovic is so mobility is that he doesn't have to cheat to cover his backhand as many players do to hit an offensive shot but he can do that easily with his backhand.

that is true ..

Originally Posted by pc1

I've seen Federer, despite his excellent mobility get burnt by shots to the open forehand side because he's moved over to his backhand side to hit his excellent backhand.

very rarely happened at the peak of his powers .... players used to fear going to the FH wing ... only post-prime federer with major decline in movement to his right, that is the case

Originally Posted by pc1

Djokovic can attack off shots to the backhand that most players would have to play defensively. I've seen very few in the Open Era that can do that as well as Djokovic. I think Connors, Borg, Rosewall and Laver did it on the same level but very few.

agassi, safin, nalbandian, kafelnikov,wawrinka, korda, davydenko ... I honestly wouldn't include borg in that list ...

[abmk]

Originally Posted by FedericRoma83

Blah blah blah.

oh my, what a retort ! I'm astounded and speechless !

but I can still muster up this ...

rosewall's competition in the pros from 61-63 was weak >>> deal with it

[abmk]

Originally Posted by NonP

FWIW I've got Tilden, Laver and Sampras all with 7 year-end no. 1 spots, and Fed with 6. And we know Fed spent pretty much the same amount of time at the top as Pete (I know a few people will make a silly point about the ATP rankings, but that's because they fail to understand the ATP ranking system is just one out of many algorithms). Hardly any significant difference here.

Are you giving 1999 to sampras and 2003 to fed ? based on level on play in select tournaments ?

even leaving aside the ATP algorithms, any other fair system considering the whole year would probably give those to agassi and roddick ..... (fed would be closer to roddick than sampras to agassi )

[kiki]

Originally Posted by abmk

I can see NonP's point .... while Novak's 2011 is superior to any year sampras had, I think NonP was referring to more to match wise peak ... and let's not forget that one point could've shifted Novak's 2011 from an ATG season to just a very very good season ... ( fed had MPs vs him @ the USO )



that is true ..




very rarely happened at the peak of his powers .... players used to fear going to the FH wing ... only post-prime federer with major decline in movement to his right, that is the case



agassi, safin, nalbandian, kafelnikov,wawrinka, korda, davydenko ... I honestly wouldn't include borg in that list ...

Vrinka Vrinka waaaawrinka!!!!

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

NonP, You are a little liar: You yet answered: "Thus the more it's reason that Beethoven did not "invent" Jazz" as a reply to my words that Stravinsky did not called it Boogie-Woogie because that term was not known in Beethoven's time. Please stay honest!

Why should I change my mind about Betthoven#s invention. I'm old enough and have heard enough classic and Jazz mucic to be able to differ between "jazziness" and "jazz"...

the only two musical genious of the 20 century were miles Davis and Jimmy Page.They are in the same league as Beethoven and Mozart since music was never the same after their work.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NonP

Rafa should be in there if we're going to include anyone other than the Magnificent Seven (Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Sampras & Federer).

Your Magnificent Seven are 7 of my top 9. I also include Nadal and Budge.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

Your Magnificent Seven are 7 of my top 9. I also include Nadal and Budge.

and, of those magnificient seven, Rosewall was the only one never to win the biggest trophy...

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

Anyway here's some players I believe at least have some reasonable reasons to be in the top ten of all time.

Tilden
Vines
Kramer
Segura
Gonzalez
Sedgman
Rosewall
Hoad
Laver
Connors
Borg
McEnroe
Lendl
Sampras
Federer
Budge
Riggs

Many on this list can easily be argued for the best ever.

Nadal may belong already but I prefer to err on the side of caution. Not sure about Novak Djokovic yet in the top ten. His peak is one of the best but again I prefer to wait.

Perry, Emerson,Newcombe,Cochet...while I am amused at your passion for Riggs,Segura and Vines, I think those 4 could be also regarded as candidates...

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by kiki

and, of those magnificient seven, Rosewall was the only one never to win the biggest trophy...

If you're talking about Wimbledon then Gonzales never won it either. However he has more of an excuse for not doing so than Rosewall.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

Perry, Emerson,Newcombe,Cochet...while I am amused at your passion for Riggs,Segura and Vines, I think those 4 could be also regarded as candidates...

I probably could have put Perry, Newcombe and Cochet in. I like Newcombe a lot as you know. I'm not a big supporter of Riggs or Segura but I do believe they have a case for top ten. A lot of players have a case for top ten but I couldn't put everyone in. Another is Agassi but I don't really think he's top ten.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

If you're talking about Wimbledon then Gonzales never won it either. However he has more of an excuse for not doing so than Rosewall.

This is all right.I never linked Gonzales to traditinal gran slam titles, albeit he won twice at FH.

[kiki]

Perry looks underrated to me.He had an all time big FH, great footwork and great fighting spirit.He was also a schrewd tactician.Some consider him to be the best player of the 30´s and, although I rate Budge a bit above him, he deserves recognition.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by NonP

Rafa should be in there if we're going to include anyone other than the Magnificent Seven (Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Sampras & Federer).

Nole I agree is not there yet. I frankly must say, as a fan, that his peak tends to be overrated these days. I'm fairly confident that Pete & Fed had a higher gear than Novak, and that if they were to play each other in that fantasy matchup series Nole would have a losing record, however slight the margin might be. And trust me, I was one of his biggest supporters long before most of us had even heard of him.



I haven't changed my tune a bit. I clearly made an additional point or two after the comment you referred to.



Actually Hadyn is not one of my favorites, and Bach is hands down the GOAT in my book, with Mozart and Beethoven right behind (though I find much of Wolfgang's oeuvre too polite and innocuous). Schubert is somewhere in the top 10 but not in the same exalted group. Still I'd never say a composer's of Haydn's importance and invention was some kind of a second-rate mug. Same thing with Wagner whose music often bores me to tears.



When you try to persuade the implicit purpose is to change the audience's opinion. When it became clear that you would not change yours I simply suggested that we agree to disagree. There was nothing muddled about my position.



That's not what I was talking about. Anyway it's best not to get into it here, as this "discussion" has taken on a life of its own where it shouldn't have.

NonP, I agree only in one point: regarding Mozart. It's regrettable that you underrate Schubert whose music is the most moving I know.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by abmk

oh my, what a retort ! I'm astounded and speechless !

but I can still muster up this ...

rosewall's competition in the pros from 61-63 was weak >>> deal with it

abmk, Yes, only a devilish person can claim that Rosewall's competition from 1961 to 1963 was weak. Muscles faced and beat Gonzalez, Laver, Segura, Sedgman, Hoad, Trabert, Gimeno, Anderson, Cooper and Olmedo. All of them in Hall of Fame....

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

the only two musical genious of the 20 century were miles Davis and Jimmy Page.They are in the same league as Beethoven and Mozart since music was never the same after their work.

kiki, And Spadea and Fromberg are in the same league as Budge and Gonzalez.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

and, of those magnificient seven, Rosewall was the only one never to win the biggest trophy...

but keeps the best record of all (with the only exception of Laver, arguably).