Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

[NadalDramaQueen]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

The third statement wasn't an assertion; it was an opinion.

Of course, I shouldn't have been so naive to think that you have posted anything other than your own personal opinions. The problem is that you think they are meaningful, which they aren't.

Everyone is trying to discuss what is happening with Armstrong, the USADA, and the case in general, and you just keep piping in and inserting opinions about how Armstrong is an obvious cheat and the like.

We all know what you think, so if you would like to actually participate in the discussion, then please do so.

[NamRanger]

Ah this is so silly.


The reason why Lance Armstrong gave up was because when the Federal Government gave up, now the USADA is stepping up in order to try and get him on some bogus charges. They don't have any real physical evidence, and the majority of their evidence is pure hearsay. The man gave up because he's tired of getting harassed. He has never failed a single drug test over his entire career, and no one has ever proven from past samples that he has ever cheated. This is just a case of either Lance Armstrong either had pretty much the best doping system in the world (because everyone was out to get him), or he really was just that good.


And the reason why the USADA got 10 people, mostly former teammates, to testify is because they all cut deals with them so that those cyclists wouldn't have to go to jail/be banned from the sport/have much less severe punishments for testifying against Lance Armstrong, who to date has never failed a test. They've got no real physical evidence, and they never have on Lance Armstrong. No one has.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

They've got no real physical evidence, and they never have on Lance Armstrong. No one has.

That seems to be the case.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by smoledman

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty in America? So suddenly we're like some Eastern third-world dictatorship where it's guilty and off with his head.

That applies in a courtroom, not in the sporting world. You also insist that Barry Bonds wasnt cheating?

[Underhand]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

This is just a case of either Lance Armstrong either had pretty much the best doping system in the world (because everyone was out to get him),

Like Marion Jones? Too bad his "doctor" ratted on her. I wonder who will do the same for Phelps.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

That applies in a courtroom, not in the sporting world. You also insist that Barry Bonds wasnt cheating?

Bonds did fail a blood test.

[bad_call]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Ah this is so silly.


The reason why Lance Armstrong gave up was because when the Federal Government gave up, now the USADA is stepping up in order to try and get him on some bogus charges. They don't have any real physical evidence, and the majority of their evidence is pure hearsay. The man gave up because he's tired of getting harassed. He has never failed a single drug test over his entire career, and no one has ever proven from past samples that he has ever cheated. This is just a case of either Lance Armstrong either had pretty much the best doping system in the world (because everyone was out to get him), or he really was just that good.


And the reason why the USADA got 10 people, mostly former teammates, to testify is because they all cut deals with them so that those cyclists wouldn't have to go to jail/be banned from the sport/have much less severe punishments for testifying against Lance Armstrong, who to date has never failed a test. They've got no real physical evidence, and they never have on Lance Armstrong. No one has.

me thinks the USADA must reveal physical evidence or be charged themselves with continued harassment.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by Underhand

Like Marion Jones? Too bad his "doctor" ratted on her. I wonder who will do the same for Phelps.

Marion Jones died of extremely suspicious circumstances. Lance Armstrong to date has had no real health issues despite the fact that during the 90s and early 2000s cyclists were pumping dangerous levels of drugs into themselves that could easily affect them at the age Armstrong is at.


The USADA refuses to reveal their supposed physical evidence that damns Armstrong. If they are so sure of the evidence, they should just release it. Otherwise, it's going to give Armstrong a very strong case against them in the court of public opinion.


This isn't like he just glides under the radar. The French Government, the WADA, the United States Federal Government, among various other anti-doping agencies, all cooperated together to ensure that Lance Armstrong was clean. No one to date has even gotten close to nailing him; Armstrong has defended his name against all sorts of accusations of physical evidence, hearsay, testimonies, etc. etc. etc. I am uncertain whether he cheated or not, but it's gotten pretty ridiculous that various agencies continue to still go after him despite the fact that they have failed to get him on any charges over a span of 2 decades.


As Benhur said, it's kind of hilarious that they are specifically targeting Lance Armstrong for over 2 decades, have failed every single time, and continue to quite literally harass him with court litigation for years on end with bogus charges and accusations, and yet no one has ever proven in court that Armstrong cheated. Ever. No one. The French have for example stated they had a sample that proves that Armstrong cheated; what happened? Nothing. The evidence wasn't strong enough to stick. The Fed Govt in the U.S. went after Armstrong, they dropped the case because they didn't have one. The WADA investigated Armstrong multiple times, they never got him on anything. And yet now the USADA comes out of nowhere, and says "AH HAH, WE GOT YOU!" and refuses to release their supposed strong physical evidence (that is in no way in relation to his multiple Tour De France wins, it is only 2009-2010).

[Benhur]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Ah this is so silly.

He has never failed a single drug test over his entire career, and no one has ever proven from past samples that he has ever cheated.

This is from 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by Benhur

This is from 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm

Those were thrown out because the way they did the testing was extremely faulty. The WADA found issues with that method of testing and it was proven that method of testing produced false positives on other athletes.


http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=2464102


The WADA themselves said that it was a bad method of testing, and was in no way shape or form even remotely objective, scientific, etc. Only Dick Pound himself didn't like it, because he was attempting to get Armstrong on really bogus charges. The UCI investigation pointed out that there was no way you could ever say that this was a 100% positive test, and that they recommended a separate tribunal investigate whether or not the proper procedures were followed. Dick Pound (head of the WADA) proceeds to say "that's bs" and whines and crys like a baby but does nothing about it and does not continue to pursue. Mainly because he along with the French Anti Doping Agency had no case.


My history is abit hazy on that particular investigation, but if I remember correctly, there was something about the pristine condition of the presence of the synthetic EPO within the samples that was very strange. Over time, synthetic EPO is supposed to degrade according to what I read during the investigation, and apparently the synthetic EPO that was present in the samples was supposedly somehow at 100% or 99.9% or something like that. Which would mean that it was added very recently (as recently as the day before the test was conducted).

[FastFreddy]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

They do? The best I can find is samples from 2009 and 2010 that say the blood is "consistent with" doping. They don't prove anything even about 2009 and 2010, let alone about the years he actually won.

As is every athlete’s right, if Mr. Armstrong would have contested the USADA charges, all of the evidence would have been presented in an open legal proceeding for him to challenge. He chose not to do this knowing these sanctions would immediately be put into place,” USADA added in a statement.

“The evidence against Lance Armstrong arose from disclosures made to USADA by more than a dozen witnesses who agreed to testify and provide evidence about their first-hand experience and/or knowledge of the doping activity of those involved in the USPS Conspiracy as well as analytical data. As part of the investigation Mr. Armstrong was invited to meet with USADA and be truthful about his time on the USPS team but he refused.”

“Numerous witnesses provided evidence to USADA based on personal knowledge acquired, either through direct observation of doping activity by Armstrong, or through Armstrong’s admissions of doping to them that Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO, testosterone and hGH through 1996. Witnesses also provided evidence that Lance Armstrong gave to them, encouraged them to use and administered doping products or methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from 1999 through 2005. Additionally, scientific data showed Mr. Armstrong’s use of blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions during Mr. Armstrong’s comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour de France.”

The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.

(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.

(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule vio

[Mustard]

The USADA have destroyed cycling as a sport. Lance Armstrong won those 7 Tour de France titles, not to mention that he has passed every drug test he has ever taken, and that was a LOT of drug tests.

[WARPWOODIE]

Some where out there, Greg Lemond is thinking/saying...., I told you so.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by Mustard

The USADA have destroyed cycling as a sport. Lance Armstrong won those 7 Tour de France titles, not to mention that he has passed every drug test he has ever taken, and that was a LOT of drug tests.

Very good sense of humor you have.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by FastFreddy

As is every athlete’s right, if Mr. Armstrong would have contested the USADA charges, all of the evidence would have been presented in an open legal proceeding for him to challenge. He chose not to do this knowing these sanctions would immediately be put into place,” USADA added in a statement.

“The evidence against Lance Armstrong arose from disclosures made to USADA by more than a dozen witnesses who agreed to testify and provide evidence about their first-hand experience and/or knowledge of the doping activity of those involved in the USPS Conspiracy as well as analytical data. As part of the investigation Mr. Armstrong was invited to meet with USADA and be truthful about his time on the USPS team but he refused.”

“Numerous witnesses provided evidence to USADA based on personal knowledge acquired, either through direct observation of doping activity by Armstrong, or through Armstrong’s admissions of doping to them that Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO, testosterone and hGH through 1996. Witnesses also provided evidence that Lance Armstrong gave to them, encouraged them to use and administered doping products or methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the period from 1999 through 2005. Additionally, scientific data showed Mr. Armstrong’s use of blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions during Mr. Armstrong’s comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour de France.”

The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.

(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.

(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule vio

All that doping and unable to produce a single failed blood teat from hundreds of samples.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by Bobby Jr

This is very very cunning by Armstrong. He can now say he never fought the charges and maintain more moral high ground amongst his supporters than if he got convicted of any of the charges at all.

Now... let's see if his corporate supporters, Nike etc, will continue their associations with him.

Not cunning at all, as his numerous protests already made him seem suspicious, rather than allowing his allegedly "clean" test results do the talking for him. Moreover, the moment his titles are officially removed, he's an official wrongdoer in the history of that sport. Add more ex-teammates and others coming forward, and the assbrained hype of Armstrong being some "greatest athelete ever" goes down the toilet, as it should.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Marion Jones died of extremely suspicious circumstances. Lance Armstrong to date has had no real health issues despite the fact that during the 90s and early 2000s cyclists were pumping dangerous levels of drugs into themselves that could easily affect them at the age Armstrong is at.

Marion Jones is not dead. I think you're confusing Jones with Florence Griffith-Joyner.

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Very good sense of humor you have.

I don't see how anyone can take the Tour de France seriously again if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his 7 titles, even more so when you take account that he has never failed a drugs test.

We've seen this sort of hypocrisy over doping in athletics, where Ben Johnson was stripped of 100m gold at the 1988 Seoul Olympics after testing positive for stanozolol, and retrospectively had his 1987 World Championship taken away too (even though he passed a drugs test after that race), while Carl Lewis, who failed 3 drug tests at the 1988 Olympic trials, is still seen as an Olympic hero and has all his medals, even those that Johnson won on the track. Johnson has been ostracised ever since, yet we know he was a better sprinter than Lewis, doped or not.

What's happened to Armstrong is even worse because he's never tested positive.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Marion Jones is not dead. I think you're confusing Jones with Florence Griffith-Joyner.



I don't see how anyone can take the Tour de France seriously again if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his 7 titles, even more so when you take account that he has never failed a drugs test.

We've seen this sort of hypocrisy over doping in athletics, where Ben Johnson was stripped of 100m gold at the 1988 Seoul Olympics after testing positive for stanozolol, and retrospectively had his 1987 World Championship taken away too (even though he passed a drugs test after that race), while Carl Lewis, who failed 3 drug tests at the 1988 Olympic trials, is still seen as an Olympic hero and has all his medals, even those that Johnson won on the track. Johnson has been ostracised ever since, yet we know he was a better sprinter than Lewis, doped or not.

What's happened to Armstrong is even worse because he's never tested positive.

Slipped my mind, was busy typing while cracked up on coffee.


Not only has Armstrong never tested positive, he has also proven that people have attempted to sabotage past samples from 1999 (read the UCI report). Look, I can't be sure if he doped or not. I do have my suspicions. However, this is pretty much an all out witchhunt at this point. They can't prove anything, so they just go after Armstrong over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again until he just gets feds up with it and quits. The UCI still stands by Armstrong and refuses to strip him of his titles until the USADA proves beyond a shadow of a doubt Armstrong doped within the span of his various tour titles. The only evidence that the USADA supposedly has is from 2009-2010, which has no bearing on Armstrong's results at the Tour De France when he won it 7 times.

[TennisLovaLova]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Marion Jones is not dead. I think you're confusing Jones with Florence Griffith-Joyner.



I don't see how anyone can take the Tour de France seriously again if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his 7 titles, even more so when you take account that he has never failed a drugs test.

We've seen this sort of hypocrisy over doping in athletics, where Ben Johnson was stripped of 100m gold at the 1988 Seoul Olympics, and retrospectively had his 1987 World Championship taken away too (even though he passed a drugs test after that race), while Carl Lewis, who failed 3 drug tests at 1988 Olympic trials, is still seen as an Olympic hero and has all his medals, even those that Johnson won on the track. Johnson has been ostracised every since, yet we know he was a better sprinter than Lewis, doped or not.

What's happened to Armstrong is even worse because he's never tested positive.

The french tested armstrong and his sample a was positive in 2000.

What happens now for lance's foundation? I guess no one in the corporate world is happy to finance someone officially banned and proven guilty of ped use... What a mess

[FastFreddy]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

All that doping and unable to produce a single failed blood teat from hundreds of samples.

Lance is a cheater and a FRAUD next they need to go after him like Landis today is San Diego court and repaid all the money given to his foundation or go to jail like Landis. He should also repay the goverment for using funds to buy drugs when he rode for USPS. Dude if you know anything about cycling and sports science you would know Lance forked over alot of money and worked with DR Ferrari and got a major drug tuneup!! Lance use to say never give up not he tells us enuff is enuff he is a quitter.