Manuel Santana vs. Dennis Ralston, W final 1966 - Page 4

pc1 · 09-01-2012, 12:46 PM

I think there is a very good chance Gonzalez would have won a huge amount of Wimbledons also. I believe from the early 1950's to the mid 1960's he probably would have been one of the top seeds.

BobbyOne · 09-01-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

I think there is a very good chance Gonzalez would have won a huge amount of Wimbledons also. I believe from the early 1950's to the mid 1960's he probably would have been one of the top seeds.

Jack Kramer gives Gonzalez six Wimbledons, among them strangly enough for 1963. I would give Pancho about 8 Wimbledons.

Kramer, even though he never was a Rosewall follower, gives Muscles 4 Wimbledons.

pc1 · 09-01-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Jack Kramer gives Gonzalez six Wimbledons, among them strangly enough for 1963. I would give Pancho about 8 Wimbledons.

Kramer, even though he never was a Rosewall follower, gives Muscles 4 Wimbledons.

Kramer said a lot of things I was surprised about with Rosewall.

It's kind of hard for Pancho Gonzalez to win Wimbledon in 1963 considering that he was retired so I agree with you that it was very odd but I think he may have been a factor in later years even if he wouldn't be the favorite.

Kramer, if memory serves gave himself about 20+ majors if he was allowed to play the majors. The number 25 comes to mind.

kiki · 09-01-2012, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Kramer said a lot of things I was surprised about with Rosewall.

It's kind of hard for Pancho Gonzalez to win Wimbledon in 1963 considering that he was retired but I think he may have been a factor in later years even if he wouldn't be the favorite.

Kramer, if memory serves gave himself about 20+ majors if he was allowed to play the majors. The number 25 comes to mind.

Kramer invented the big game.Kramer invented modern tennis, modern Agency of Representatives, the Masters,the ATP ranks, the % tennis that Borg developed to unexplored limits,...is there something that Jack Kramer did not invent??? oh¡ yes, the concept of modesty...

BobbyOne · 09-01-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Kramer said a lot of things I was surprised about with Rosewall.

It's kind of hard for Pancho Gonzalez to win Wimbledon in 1963 considering that he was retired so I agree with you that it was very odd but I think he may have been a factor in later years even if he wouldn't be the favorite.

Kramer, if memory serves gave himself about 20+ majors if he was allowed to play the majors. The number 25 comes to mind.

In his famous book he gives himself 10 major titles for Wimbledon and US Open.

I doubt that he could have reached the amount of Tilden, Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver for the four majors because I don't give him five French Open titles. Gonzalez and Segura would have been tough opponents at Paris as Segura showed who beat Kramer in the 1950 US Pro on clay.

I believe that Pancho would not have won the 1963 Wimbledon even if he would not have retired at the end of 1961 because Rosewall was so strong in 1963 especially on grass (see his clear win against Laver in the US Pro).

Sure, not always wins the top seed but Muscles would have been the favourite at least. On the other hand Rosewall could have surprised in years when he was second to Laver because Rosewall used to win majors when not being the favourite (US Pro 1965, French Pro 1965, French Open 1968, US Open 1970, AO 1971, AO 1972, Wembley 1957...).

BobbyOne · 09-01-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki

Kramer invented the big game.Kramer invented modern tennis, modern Agency of Representatives, the Masters,the ATP ranks, the % tennis that Borg developed to unexplored limits,...is there something that Jack Kramer did not invent??? oh¡ yes, the concept of modesty...

You are right. Kramer thought he was the GOAT.

Frank Silbermann · 09-01-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki

Kramer invented the big game.Kramer invented modern tennis, modern Agency of Representatives, the Masters,the ATP ranks, the % tennis that Borg developed to unexplored limits,...is there something that Jack Kramer did not invent??? oh¡ yes, the concept of modesty...

If he but not the other pros were allowed to play them, then yeah maybe.

kiki · 09-02-2012, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

You are right. Kramer thought he was the GOAT.

Great tactician, great strategist and leader but also a big head.I have him in my top 15 ever, anyhow.

Limpinhitter · 09-02-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki

Great tactician, great strategist and leader but also a big head.I have him in my top 15 ever, anyhow.

Great serve and one of the all time great forehands.

kiki · 09-03-2012, 01:27 PM

While Kramer is not a nice guy or a modest guy, I don´t think there has ever been anybody more influential on the game and he took it to unexplored levels, while playing AND MANAGING the pro tour and later on, settled the ATP and Masters...while before he hadrevolutioned the game with both S&V Big game and % tnnis, which was the same back then...Maybe Tilden and Borg have had such effect in different times, but none of them has given such a complete package of changes and influences on the overall game...He is the GOAT in almost 70%...that, we must credit him, whether we like him or not...

kiki · 09-03-2012, 01:46 PM

...In other words: No kramer, No Federer....did Jack Kramer ALOS pattented the concept of NationalFederelism?

kiki · 09-03-2012, 02:03 PM

ROME 71:Smith,Ashe and Roche
BARCELONA 72: Gimeno,Nasty at his peak and Manolo Orantes, 2 spaniards in their won field...

So much for Kodes haters¡¡¡ so much for other pro´s enhancers¡¡¡

BobbyOne · 09-03-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki

ROME 71:Smith,Ashe and Roche
BARCELONA 72: Gimeno,Nasty at his peak and Manolo Orantes, 2 spaniards in their won field...

So much for Kodes haters¡¡¡ so much for other pro´s enhancers¡¡¡

Smith and Ashe were not great claycourters and Roche was injured at that time.

Dan Lobb · 09-03-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Jack Kramer gives Gonzalez six Wimbledons, among them strangly enough for 1963. I would give Pancho about 8 Wimbledons.

Kramer, even though he never was a Rosewall follower, gives Muscles 4 Wimbledons.

Kramer rates Perry (yes, Fred Perry) and Riggs ahead of Hoad and Rosewall and Laver and Sedgman. Weird or what?
Jack Kramer's listings should not be taken too seriously.
He rated Perry so high just to give his favourites, Budge and Vines, a boost in the standings.

BobbyOne · 09-04-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Kramer rates Perry (yes, Fred Perry) and Riggs ahead of Hoad and Rosewall and Laver and Sedgman. Weird or what?
Jack Kramer's listings should not be taken too seriously.
He rated Perry so high just to give his favourites, Budge and Vines, a boost in the standings.

I agree totally. Perry is overrated.

pc1 · 09-04-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Great serve and one of the all time great forehands.

Great volley also. There are those who argue that Kramer at his best over a period of years was the best ever. I don't think so but a number of people do.

urban · 09-05-2012, 09:24 AM

Now, Perry was an alltime great player, no doubt. We had a discussion here on the question, who of the giants of the 30s, Perry, Vines, Budge, was indeed the greatest. Perry was at least the best athlete, and probably the hardest to beat in the mental department. He hit his peak still an amateur, but here at Wim and DC, his record outshines the other two. Maybe Vines and Budge had better stroke production, but in a vital Davis Cup match, at 2-2, and in the fifth set i would pick Perry. To cite a line by Rex Bellamy: Vines or von Cramm for my pleasure, Perry for my life!

Dan Lobb · 09-05-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban

Now, Perry was an alltime great player, no doubt. We had a discussion here on the question, who of the giants of the 30s, Perry, Vines, Budge, was indeed the greatest. Perry was at least the best athlete, and probably the hardest to beat in the mental department. He hit his peak still an amateur, but here at Wim and DC, his record outshines the other two. Maybe Vines and Budge had better stroke production, but in a vital Davis Cup match, at 2-2, and in the fifth set i would pick Perry. To cite a line by Rex Bellamy: Vines or von Cramm for my pleasure, Perry for my life!

Perry was the fittest player of his era, and trained with soccer players, running up and down stadium steps.
This fitness accounts for his 1936 win over Budge at Forest Hills, where Budge admitted that he ran out of gas.
Perry did not measure up to Vines or Budge in hth pro play, as his backhand was not competitive.
Vines Davis Cup record was abysmal, so this is not a good comparison.

kiki · 09-08-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Perry was the fittest player of his era, and trained with soccer players, running up and down stadium steps.
This fitness accounts for his 1936 win over Budge at Forest Hills, where Budge admitted that he ran out of gas.
Perry did not measure up to Vines or Budge in hth pro play, as his backhand was not competitive.
Vines Davis Cup record was abysmal, so this is not a good comparison.

Perry was raised in a very doggy environment and his dad was a LP MOP.I remember listening to him at Wimbleodn, through the BBC World Service.He had a crush on Connors, maybe both had a similar ground...

Limpinhitter · 09-16-2012, 09:40 AM

Funny how Dennis Ralston and Manuel Santana have long been forgotten in this thread.

09-03-2012, 01:27 PM	#70
kiki G.O.A.T. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10,500	While Kramer is not a nice guy or a modest guy, I don´t think there has ever been anybody more influential on the game and he took it to unexplored levels, while playing AND MANAGING the pro tour and later on, settled the ATP and Masters...while before he hadrevolutioned the game with both S&V Big game and % tnnis, which was the same back then...Maybe Tilden and Borg have had such effect in different times, but none of them has given such a complete package of changes and influences on the overall game...He is the GOAT in almost 70%...that, we must credit him, whether we like him or not... __________________ " I have watched plenty of matches of the 70´s and 80´s" ABMK, the historian

09-03-2012, 01:46 PM	#71
kiki G.O.A.T. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10,500	...In other words: No kramer, No Federer....did Jack Kramer ALOS pattented the concept of NationalFederelism? __________________ " I have watched plenty of matches of the 70´s and 80´s" ABMK, the historian

09-03-2012, 02:03 PM	#72
kiki G.O.A.T. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10,500	ROME 71:Smith,Ashe and Roche BARCELONA 72: Gimeno,Nasty at his peak and Manolo Orantes, 2 spaniards in their won field... So much for Kodes haters¡¡¡ so much for other pro´s enhancers¡¡¡ __________________ " I have watched plenty of matches of the 70´s and 80´s" ABMK, the historian

09-05-2012, 09:24 AM	#77
urban Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,735	Now, Perry was an alltime great player, no doubt. We had a discussion here on the question, who of the giants of the 30s, Perry, Vines, Budge, was indeed the greatest. Perry was at least the best athlete, and probably the hardest to beat in the mental department. He hit his peak still an amateur, but here at Wim and DC, his record outshines the other two. Maybe Vines and Budge had better stroke production, but in a vital Davis Cup match, at 2-2, and in the fifth set i would pick Perry. To cite a line by Rex Bellamy: Vines or von Cramm for my pleasure, Perry for my life! Last edited by urban : 09-05-2012 at 09:27 AM.

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