What do you do with your doubles partners that always serve wide?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by AR15

I've found very few 3.5's in my area that can't hit a decent return off an "average" serve to their backhand. If my serving partners were getting these backhand points for us, I wouldn't be complaining.

For women, serving to the BH on the assumption that the BH is the weaker wing is folly.

I know so many women who have BHs that are stronger than their FHs. Hint: These women can be found on the ad side, because then they do not have to hit Xcourt FHs that get by the net player's FH.

Anyway, my BH was stronger than my FH for many years. Thankfully, many servers never seemed to figure this out. They would keep pounding on my BH, completely unaware I would hand them the match if they made me hit FHs.

FWIW, I do not think this holds for men. I see a lot of wonky BHs from the guys compared to their FHs. Trouble is, there is no way I can reliably serve to a guy's BH if he is determined to run around it.

[Mike Y]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I dislike it very much when servers serve from the center hash when we are not in Aussie or I formation. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

The reason is that they often tell me to stand closer to the alley so they do not hit me. I am in their way because they are at the center hash. Yeah, I get it. But this is not singles. You are supposed to be setting me up for a poach, and I cannot poach or pressure the returner if you park me in the alley.

If the server stands halfway between center hash and doubles sideline, they should be able to serve up the T, IMO. That is my normal serve position in doubles. I change it up (doubles alley) when I have a returner who hates the slice out wide and I want to make them pull their hair out in chunks.

That's strange, I've never heard of anyone worrying about getting hit at the net when their partner is serving. When my partner is serving at the T, I'll stand inside the service box a few feet away from the doubles alley, then take a couple of steps toward the center of the court (or more) when the serve passes me.

[spot]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Spot, I disagree that the returner should slide more to their left. Sure, it takes away more of the DTL, but allows the returner more court to avoid the net man down the middle, with a dipping shot for example, that is hard for the server to volley. I think the way I have it drawn up is the higher percentage play - at least for me it is. The fact that the way I have it leaves relatively little for the server to cover is a good thing in my book! The more posible returns the net person can handle the better.

Orange- in your diagram you are giving the returner a full 1/3 of the baseline to hit to. If you hit to my forehand and I have 1/3 of the baseline to hit to then in my book that is a trivially easy shot. I think on wide balls most net teams set up where you diagram and don't slide over far enough so that is going to be my go to shot every single time.

[spot]

Cindy- I agree that women dramatically more often have a stronger backhand than forehand because they have 2 hands on the racquet. Thats why I say that I like my partners to serve to the backhand until they show that they can attack off of that side. If their backhand is a better shot than their forehand then I'll all for serving up the middle as often as possible.

[NTRPolice]

Sigh.

In a generic point where players are normally positioned on the court a serve out wide leaves the smallest potential for an easy winner on the serve return. I cant see how any of you are even arguing this.

If you serve the T (since when does the middle of the box count as the T? lol) you have 3 potential areas for a winner.

-Down the middle: yes, its quite easy to rip the ball down the middle for a winner amongst the confusion burning the net guy and beating the server who is standing unusually wide)

-Down the line: small target, but definitely hittable. If the net person even takes one step and to the net, your target DTL becomes huge.

-Angle: Small target, but very easy to push the ball wide and set up a put away for your net person.

vs.

Hitting a winner DTL from a serve out wide requires you to take the ball EXTREMELY late to make your target "larger" and requires an unnatural change to the path of the swing/ball. Remember, this isnt singles so its hard to get away with bad angles.

It's impossible to hit a winner down the middle off an out wide serve in any normal circumstance.

The only immediate winner there is cross court in a sharp angle. That shot is very hard to hit without them getting their racket on the ball.





You also need to consider that when you have left handed players everything goes out the window. Sometimes when a lefty and a righty play together, you have their forehands DTL. Sometimes they play with forehands down the middle.

Watch a game of all righties. They serve out wide. I cant believe you tried to pull that crap on me "oh serving down the T LOLS" when you're talking about left handed players.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Mike Y

That's strange, I've never heard of anyone worrying about getting hit at the net when their partner is serving. When my partner is serving at the T, I'll stand inside the service box a few feet away from the doubles alley, then take a couple of steps toward the center of the court (or more) when the serve passes me.

I like to set up in the exact middle of the service box when my partner is serving. Once I discern where the serve is going, I take one step forward and on the diagonal to mirror the ball and split.

If my partner wants me a few feet away from the doubles alley, then I cannot get in front of a T serve in one step, which makes it more difficult for me to get into the correct position while in good balance. Better would be for them to slide over from the hash so they can hit all spots without hitting me.

[Cindysphinx]

NTRPpolice,

Let's keep it simple. Let's also remembers that doubles strategy is not about hitting winners off of the return from the baseline. It is about getting the opponents to hit a weak shot that can be exploited.

Let's assume four right-handed players, with the serve coming in the deuce court.

Server hits an average (for level) first serve out wide. What happens?

Server's partner mirrors the ball, so she slides somewhat to the alley on her left. This leaves the server covering a large amount of court -- the middle, the gentle or wicked crosscourt, and the lob over the partner. Returner is happy and relaxed and not under much pressure from the net player. Not great.

Now let's say instead that the server hits down the T. The server's partner mirrors the ball, so she slides toward the center. This leaves the returner to hit the wicked crosscourt or the change-of-direction BH to the net player's alley. These are both much more difficult shots. If the returner isn't right on target, the ball is poachable.

That, as I understand it, is the reasoning behind serving up the T. Do you still disagree?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by spot

Cindy- I agree that women dramatically more often have a stronger backhand than forehand because they have 2 hands on the racquet. Thats why I say that I like my partners to serve to the backhand until they show that they can attack off of that side. If their backhand is a better shot than their forehand then I'll all for serving up the middle as often as possible.

By ladies 4.0, most people are solid off of both wings, meaning they do not have a glaring deficiency that can be exploited.

For that reason, I prefer to focus on my own game. I hit my favorite serves and favorite shots and favorite strategies. If I notice a weakness, I will go there, but I am not seeing many women who are so lopsided that it makes much difference in the match.

[spot]

In a generic point where players are normally positioned on the court a serve out wide leaves the smallest potential for an easy winner on the serve return. I cant see how any of you are even arguing this.

You are just delusional. When you serve out wide then the opposing team has a TON more court to hit to because you are opening up a ton of angle for them.

Watch a game of all righties. They serve out wide. I cant believe you tried to pull that crap on me "oh serving down the T LOLS" when you're talking about left handed players.

It was the first video I came across where they had a lot of points with the downtime taken out. Here's the first video I came across of 4 righties playing. (most of the top doubles teams have a lefty playing Deuce side to neutralize the serve down the T so it took a while to find 4 righties) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZHbR...eature=related

They didn't put a serve out wide in the first 4 minutes of the highlights. Why don't you find a video that shows the example of doubles teams serving out wide constantly since you think thats how all professionals do it?

[tennis_ocd]

Interesting article on doubles serving: http://www.tennisserver.com/wildcard...rds_08_01.html

"The first part is easy: to insure a return down the center, serve up the center. Geometry rules, as the diagram shows. A wide serve has almost twice as big an angle of return as a centered serve. Centering the serve constrains the return to within an area you can reach."

[Cindysphinx]

Tennis OCD,

That is great, thank you.

I notice that the server who is serving down the middle has been moved to the center hash. That is something I don't agree with.

If the server serves from that position, the net player is in the way of a wide serve. This tells the returner that the serve will be up the middle, thereby forfeiting the element of surprise. Indeed, the returner can line up to run around the BH if she wishes, secure in the knowledge the serve isn't going wide.

If the server instead serves up the middle from a wider position (halfway between center hash and doubles sideline), then the receiver has to respect the possibility of a wide serve.

[2ndServe]

At around the men's 5.0 level it's my opinion that you should generally serve to the backhand especially on the 2nd serve. Not because the backhands are weak but because the more modern players are so much stronger on that side.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If the server serves from that position, the net player is in the way of a wide serve. This tells the returner that the serve will be up the middle, thereby forfeiting the element of surprise. Indeed, the returner can line up to run around the BH if she wishes, secure in the knowledge the serve isn't going wide.

If the server instead serves up the middle from a wider position (halfway between center hash and doubles sideline), then the receiver has to respect the possibility of a wide serve.

Cindy- just to have an image to illustrate your point. Here is where the net person gets in the way of the Wide serve when serving from the T.


Here is where taking just a couple steps over makes the receiver cover a ton more ground.


And moving over into the alley gives more angle still but its not a huge difference.

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Tennis OCD,

That is great, thank you.

I notice that the server who is serving down the middle has been moved to the center hash. That is something I don't agree with.

If the server serves from that position, the net player is in the way of a wide serve. This tells the returner that the serve will be up the middle, thereby forfeiting the element of surprise. Indeed, the returner can line up to run around the BH if she wishes, secure in the knowledge the serve isn't going wide.

If the server instead serves up the middle from a wider position (halfway between center hash and doubles sideline), then the receiver has to respect the possibility of a wide serve.

The center position gives the server the low net point for t serves and keeps the ball in the center of the court. Player D can start a bit to the alley and step in behind the serve or just crouch low.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

The center position gives the server the low net point for t serves and keeps the ball in the center of the court. Player D can start a bit to the alley and step in behind the serve or just crouch low.

If the server stands wider and serves to the center, then the serve is still going over the lowest part of the net, no? I mean, Spot's diagram shows that we are talking about a serve going directly over the center strap versus going a few inches farther along the top of the net. How much height difference can there be between the net strap and six inches farther over? Quarter of an inch?

As for crouching . . . yes, it is theoretically true that I could get low enough that the server wouldn't hit me with a serve that would otherwise clear the net. She would hit me with serves that do not clear the net. I do not consider being hit a big deal, but servers tell me it bothers them.

[Mauvaise]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

For women, serving to the BH on the assumption that the BH is the weaker wing is folly.

I know so many women who have BHs that are stronger than their FHs. Hint: These women can be found on the ad side, because then they do not have to hit Xcourt FHs that get by the net player's FH.

Yes, yes, and yes. Even in 7.0 mixed when I'm arguably the weakest player on the court, I'll take the ad court more than 50% of the time. Reason is two-fold: 1) my backhand return is way better than my forehand return, but from the ad-court I've "perfected" (as much as a 3.0 can perfect anything) the inside out forehand return. I've also gotten good at returning the up the T serve straight up the middle instead of inside out to mix it up. 2) For whatever reason, I find it harder to get burned on the out wide serve when returning ad than in deuce. Which means more points that at least get started.

[AR15]

Originally Posted by Mauvaise

Yes, yes, and yes. Even in 7.0 mixed when I'm arguably the weakest player on the court, I'll take the ad court more than 50% of the time. Reason is two-fold: 1) my backhand return is way better than my forehand return, but from the ad-court I've "perfected" (as much as a 3.0 can perfect anything) the inside out forehand return. I've also gotten good at returning the up the T serve straight up the middle instead of inside out to mix it up. 2) For whatever reason, I find it harder to get burned on the out wide serve when returning ad than in deuce. Which means more points that at least get started.

So, as the ad court receiver, you are returning cross court, which should be the easiest return because you are not having to change direction on the ball. Your opposing net player is shifting to the ally, further leaving your cross court return open. And, if your opposing net guy is right handled, his weak side is covering your cross court return.

On the duece side return, if your opposing net player is right handed, he is going to be more inclined to poach up the middle or cross court returns.

[kylebarendrick]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Now let's say instead that the server hits down the T. The server's partner mirrors the ball, so she slides toward the center. This leaves the returner to hit the wicked crosscourt or the change-of-direction BH to the net player's alley. These are both much more difficult shots. If the returner isn't right on target, the ball is poachable.

Although I generally agree with your position in this thread, I have to disagree about that backhand. In a lot of ways, it really isn't a change of direction, it is a normal cross-court backhand (yes, the incoming angle is a little weird) and for me at least is an easier shot to hit reliably than the inside out backhand that would be required to get the back cross-court to the server.

I get several backhand winners each match going up the line on a serve up the T, precisely because the server's partner is at least leaning towards the middle.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

Although I generally agree with your position in this thread, I have to disagree about that backhand. In a lot of ways, it really isn't a change of direction, it is a normal cross-court backhand (yes, the incoming angle is a little weird) and for me at least is an easier shot to hit reliably than the inside out backhand that would be required to get the back cross-court to the server.

I get several backhand winners each match going up the line on a serve up the T, precisely because the server's partner is at least leaning towards the middle.

I have a friend who agrees with you. That is what her pro told her.

When she tries this, she misses pretty much every time. This shot requires very good footwork and probably some topspin to keep the ball from flying wide. It is that weird incoming angle that messes people up. They get jammed.

If I am in the deuce court with an active poacher at net and my opponents are serving up the T and hurting me, there are several things I will try before I try to take my BH behind the poacher to the alley.

Step One -- receive serve much closer to the net to take away their time. This one adjustment is often sufficient.

Step Two -- just hit a lob return over net player's BH.

Step Three -- sad, desperate attempt to take my BH into the alley. When I miss, I tell my partner I was "sending a message."

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Perhaps. I think this is something that is level-dependent.

In 4.0 ladies, I am not going to be making contact with the ball deeper than the baseline. Nor am I going to be fetching balls near the curtain. This does not mean the server is hitting "bad" serves. It means the server is hitting 3.5/4.0 ladies serves.

Fair enough, I don't have much experience playing with 3.5/4.0 ladies.

Originally Posted by spot

Orange- in your diagram you are giving the returner a full 1/3 of the baseline to hit to. If you hit to my forehand and I have 1/3 of the baseline to hit to then in my book that is a trivially easy shot. I think on wide balls most net teams set up where you diagram and don't slide over far enough so that is going to be my go to shot every single time.

In that case I think your forehand is much better than mine (and that of the people I play with)! I find it very hard to consistently make that DTL shot against a decent server on a serve swinging wide. If I were playing you, I would test you a few times on that shot - it you prove you can make it often enough, then I stop doing it, but not until then.