US Juniors needs MORE Nat'l and advanced experiences not less

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

The changes to the competition schedule have nothing to do with that, except Pmac thinks that by reducing the amount of national competition the sport will look more attractive to parents deciding what sports there kid should focus on at the age of 8,9,10, etc(his own words). You are mixing apples and oranges.

It is not mixing apples and oranges. If playing at a higher level is more focused on local competition and not about endless travels, it is far more attractive to parents with modest income which equals more kids.

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Keep in mind the changes were not just to national tournaments, they eliminated half of the sectional events that had national ranking point too. The changes to the national competition schedule are about focusing more on top players and eliminating the riff-raff.

USTA shouldn't care of middling top players who have no chance of going pro. There are only handful of kids who have realistic chances of that. I would support making the pool of USTA backed-players at the very top even smaller.

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Top players are not produced by federations. They are produced by coaches, parents, and systems that allow them to thrive.

Not all parents can afford time/money to do so. Once a talent is identified, USTA needs to provide the resources to take them to the very high level. It does not mean parents cannot be involved.

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Except that is not the choice they are making. They are not shifting any resources from the top 200-300-400 to the 200,000-300,000-400,00. They are shifting resources from the top 200-300-400 to focus in the top 1-50-100.

Then they are doing the right thing. The chances of top 200, 300, 400 player becoming the next Agassi is virtually nil. USTA should only focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent. USTA should also focus on getting thousands of more kids involved so that you can develop more exceptional talent just by brute numbers.

Anything in between is not something USTA should care more about. Who cares if there are 50 more NCAA players from US? Do you seriously think that is going to inspire some kid to take up tennis?

[TCF]

Originally Posted by gameboy

USTA should only focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent.

They have done that since 1998, this current high performance program is the 4th regime since the idea began. You know how many male players you have heard of have resulted in the 15 years they have been trying? Zero.

I agree with your point they should grow the game and focus on sheer numbers of kids playing tennis so that the odds increase of the next champion.

But they should let an existing academy or private coach develop that talent and simply provide the money. An actual USTA run program with actual USTA coaches and facilities has failed for 15 years and will likely keep failing. Pat Mac can not name one boy in his program destined for stardom. So we move the clock to 16 years, 17 years....so maybe they hit on one guy in 20-25 years of trying? Total waste of money.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

It is not mixing apples and oranges. If playing at a higher level is more focused on local competition and not about endless travels, it is far more attractive to parents with modest income which equals more kids.

That is certainly pMacs theory. I think it is hogwash. Particularly if the goal is to attract more elite athletes, not just more kids.

Originally Posted by gameboy

USTA shouldn't care of middling top players who have no chance of going pro. There are only handful of kids who have realistic chances of that. I would support making the pool of USTA backed-players at the very top even smaller.

And here we have the crux of the matter and the heart of the disagreement. You and the people on your side of the argument think the national junior tournaments system is some minor league for the professionals, and that if you are not on a path to be a professional, you should not be a part of it. You believe its mission or purpose is to develop professional tennis players.

I, and the the people on my side of the argument, recognize that now matter how small or large you make it, 99% of the kids playing national junior tennis are not going to be pro's. National junior competition is about so much more than that. A by-product of it will be some really great players who, with the help of the USTA, or despite the USTA, might make it as pros. But that's s not the purpose of the junior competition system.

Originally Posted by gameboy

Not all parents can afford time/money to do so. Once a talent is identified, USTA needs to provide the resources to take them to the very high level. It does not mean parents cannot be involved.

That's fine, but they don't need to gut the junior competition system to do this.

Originally Posted by gameboy

Then they are doing the right thing. The chances of top 200, 300, 400 player becoming the next Agassi is virtually nil. USTA should only focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent.

Same thing as above. If they want to do their PD thing and try to build the next Agassi, then fine, I don't care, let them. Have their tea parties, theie master events, sweet sixteen parties. Whatever. But don't take the events away from the rest of the kids. And don't pretend that by taking away events from these kids you are "reallocating resources" to the even lower ranked kids, sorry, that's not whats happening.

Originally Posted by gameboy

Who cares if there are 50 more NCAA players from US? Do you seriously think that is going to inspire some kid to take up tennis?

I can think of about 50 people....and seriously, do you think I care if that does or doesn't inspire someone to take up tennis ?

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

And here we have the crux of the matter and the heart of the disagreement. You and the people on your side of the argument think the national junior tournaments system is some minor league for the professionals, and that if you are not on a path to be a professional, you should not be a part of it. You believe its mission or purpose is to develop professional tennis players.

I, and the the people on my side of the argument, recognize that now matter how small or large you make it, 99% of the kids playing national junior tennis are not going to be pro's. National junior competition is about so much more than that. A by-product of it will be some really great players who, with the help of the USTA, or despite the USTA, might make it as pros. But that's s not the purpose of the junior competition system.

Nope, that is not my position at all.

My position is that these tournaments ARE NOT some minor league for the professionals. And since they ARE NOT for producing professionals, it is irresponsible to force parents and children to travel around the country in mis-guided attempt to collect points. Local tournaments are more than capable of producing capable amateur athletes. National tournaments are not necessary except for the very best.

Reducing the number of national-level tournaments brings the system back to where it should be - at the local district/state level where almost every other sport is supported.

This is a positive step for everyone involved. The only people who are upset are those people who think their kid is that special 1 in a million athlete who can go pro if they just get more exposure. That is just a pipe dream and earlier it is snuffed, better it is for the kid.

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

I can think of about 50 people....and seriously, do you think I care if that does or doesn't inspire someone to take up tennis ?

And why should I care about those 50 people?

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

Nope, that is not my position at all.

My position is that these tournaments ARE NOT some minor league for the professionals. And since they ARE NOT for producing professionals, it is irresponsible to force parents and children to travel around the country in mis-guided attempt to collect points. Local tournaments are more than capable of producing capable amateur athletes. National tournaments are not necessary except for the very best.

Exactly who is forcing all these kids to go to these tournaments ? Name names. Seriously, who is putting a gun to their head and saying "you must go to all of these tournaments" ? People want to go to them, not just for the points, for the experience. Nobody ever has to go to a tennis tournament. Let me guess, they just don't know how stupid they are you are just trying to save them from themselves ?

Originally Posted by gameboy

Reducing the number of national-level tournaments brings the system back to where it should be - at the local district/state level where almost every other sport is supported.

First of all, Tennis is not every other sport. Second, the changes don't accomplish this, they force kids to go to regional tournaments in one of four regions that are most likely father away from where they live than the current regional tournaments. So not only are the changes flawed conceptually, they are even more flawed in the implementation, they don't even implement the objectives they claim to have.

Originally Posted by gameboy

The only people who are upset are those people who think their kid is that special 1 in a million athlete who can go pro if they just get more exposure. That is just a pipe dream and earlier it is snuffed, better it is for the kid.

And there you go 10S4US, we wound up exactly where I said we would would, only took 24 posts.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

And why should I care about those 50 people?

I don't expect you would. 50 kids who worked their tails off for years. It's not like their the next Agassi, screw'em, I mean that the only thing to really care about, right ? Really, there is No 1, and just a bunch of losers after that.

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Exactly who is forcing all these kids to go to these tournaments ? Name names. Seriously, who is putting a gun to their head and saying "you must go to all of these tournaments" ? People want to go to them, not just for the points, for the experience. Nobody ever has to go to a tennis tournament. Let me guess, they just don't know how stupid they are you are just trying to save them from themselves ?

You can't dangle carrots out in front and say "who? me? The horse doesn't have to go after the carrot!"

If they want the experience, anyone can start a national tournament and invite those people for "experience". This is a free country. Why do you need USTA sanction if all you want is "experience"?

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

First of all, Tennis is not every other sport. Second, the changes don't accomplish this, they force kids to go to regional tournaments in one of four regions that are most likely father away from where they live than the current regional tournaments. So not only are the changes flawed conceptually, they are even more flawed in the implementation, they don't even implement the objectives they claim to have.

It affects significantly less number of kids and vast majority of those kids have USTA support. That's the whole point.

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

And there you go 10S4US, we wound up exactly where I said we would would, only took 24 posts.

Whoopee for you...

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

USTA should only focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent.

The USTA's focus is on growing the sport of tennis. From junior to seniors to wheelchair players. The USTA Player Development division exists to focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent, but as TCF has said, they have been doing this, quite miserably, for quite some time. But rather than accept they are the problem rather then the solution, they have hijacked the junior tournament system.


Junior competition and Player Development are not the same.

This is the tail wagging the dog.

[HIGH-TECH TENNIS]

Junior competition and Player Development are not the same.

RIGHT ON, ALOHA!

[tennis5]

You state in an earlier post that you would like for your daughter:

My goal is to get her started in tournaments when she turns 12, and my long term goal is to get her to be a high school all-county level player.... I am not expecting her to play in college whatsoever. It would take too much away from academics to chase that. ROI is just not there.

She is enrolled in a gifted children program in her school district and is one of the best math student in the district. The kids in the program have almost 100% college entrance rate and many of them have been accepted to Ivy League and other comparable schools like Stanford and Berkeley.

So expecting her to graduate college is not much of an expectation either.

Tennis is just to keep her in shape and be involved athletically, but I want to make sure she has a really sound foundation.

Well, we have parents of 8 year olds, 10 year olds, and 12 years old on this board.
They have spent a bit more time and money on training their kids, than just the one clinic that your daughter is doing...
So, naturally, they are upset that when 2014 turns around and there are drastic cuts in the 12's.
Their kids will never go to the Winter Nationals, Copper Bowl, Easter Bowl.
The clays and Hards will be cut to 64 kids for the 12's....

But, back to you as these are your posts I am quoting..... How would you feel if 75% of the high school teams were cut?
That's right, the number is correct, as that is the ultimate cut in USTA national tournaments.
Would you feel pleased that your daughter who attended her one clinic a week, and now 3 out of 4 high school teams were gone.. (Go back to pre 2010 Nationals and see what is cut.......)

You also state:

Once a talent is identified, USTA needs to provide the resources to take them to the very high level.
It does not mean parents cannot be involved....
USTA should only focus on small number of kids with exceptional talent.

Well, we already have that. It is called PD. PLAYER DEVELOPMENT RUN BY A GUY NAMED PMAC, HIS BROTHER IS FAMOUS.
Couple of million are spent on that already.....
Are you suggesting more? Track record is so stellar.


USTA should also focus on getting thousands of more kids involved so that you can develop
more exceptional talent just by brute numbers.


Well, we already have that. It is called TAUT.
LOT OF MONEY SPENT THERE...... IT HAS BEEN ADVERTISED A BIT.

You state:
If playing at a higher level is more focused on local competition and not about endless travels,
it is far more attractive to parents with modest income which equals more kids.


First, if your kid is a standout, a Taylor Townsend for example, then she will be at Boca and travel expenses are FREE.
So, if you have a modest income, and your daughter or son is a wow, it is zero cost.

Every section has local tournaments and many different levels.
But, local competition outside of California and Florida is very limited for playing at a high national level.........
I would think you would know this since you are posting about the National changes here,
but will assume you live in California or Florida, and don't realize that the rest of the country has some smaller sections.

Ok, let's talk about endless travels.
Maybe, spend 5 minutes reading about the new regionals and you would realize that geographically they are even worse than they are now.......... And farther away.

Anything in between is not something USTA should care more about.
Who cares if there are 50 more NCAA players from US?

Who cares? Well, I know you don't as you have planned out already what your daughter will be doing.....
And your rational for planning it out...

Trust me, what I am doing is very common among Asian households

Actually, a lot of Asian parents do let their kids pick out their own sports,
glad you can lump a group of people together, some segments of the population actually dislike stereotypes.


But back to what you stated:
Anything in between is not something USTA should care more about.
Who cares if there are 50 more NCAA players from US?

Wait, so the USTA should only care about the top 1% and the very bottom,
but not the middle kids who might want to play college tennis?
99% of the tournament kids are trying to get to college tennis.
Cuts in national tournaments reduces exposure.
I understand you are not concerned about that as you state you do not aspire for your daughter to play college tennis,
but some of us do.....

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

You can't dangle carrots out in front and say "who? me? The horse doesn't have to go after the carrot!"

So this pretty much clears it up. It looks like you agree with me. You know whats best, all the stupid, crazy tennis parents don't realize what a bad ROI competing in national junior tennis is, they can't control themselves when 'points' are dangled in front them. The USTA is doing this for their own good. I suppose we should bow down and and kiss you hand for looking out for us ?

What's even sadder about this is in your own posts you say you have no interest in having your daughter play outside her section. You think it has a bad ROI. So, to be blunt, why don't you mind you own business ? Or better yet, why don't you go bother the old folks and leave the kids alone. I mean, the last time I checked, the over 65 3.5+ division was having a national team tournament next month. And its sanctioned by the USTA for Christ sake! Guess what, nobody at that tournament has a chance of being the next Andre Agassi either. So why are the leaving their section ??? Why aren't you over at Adult Tennis league board saying we should gut the national adult league tournaments becuase all these silly geriatrics are making a bad investment decisions ? I mean, seriously, they have medical bills coming up, grandchildren they need to take care of, they shouldn't be allowed to fly all over the country for tennis tournaments. We need to save them from themselves. If they win the tournament, they get a trophy and a picture in the USTA magazine(and a ratings bump). How can they resist ?????

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by tennis5

Well, we have parents of 8 year olds, 10 year olds, and 12 years old on this board.
They have spent a bit more time and money on training their kids, than just the one clinic that your daughter is doing...
So, naturally, they are upset that when 2014 turns around and there are drastic cuts in the 12's.
Their kids will never go to the Winter Nationals, Copper Bowl, Easter Bowl.
The clays and Hards will be cut to 64 kids for the 12's....

If they are spending thousands of dollars in hopes of getting their kids into those tournaments when they are really not the cream of the crop, they only have themselves to blame. This should be about getting exposed to a great and healthy hobbie. Not about collecting trophies.

Originally Posted by tennis5

But, back to you as these are your posts I am quoting..... How would you feel if 75% of the high school teams were cut?
That's right, the number is correct, as that is the ultimate cut in USTA national tournaments.
Would you feel pleased that your daughter who attended her one clinic a week, and now 3 out of 4 high school teams were gone.. (Go back to pre 2010 Nationals and see what is cut.......)

But that is exactly opposite of what is happening. The truer analogy would be that they are eliminating national travel teams so that they can focus more on local high school teams. And yes, I see that as nothing but goodness.

Originally Posted by tennis5

Well, we already have that. It is called PD. PLAYER DEVELOPMENT RUN BY A GUY NAMED PMAC, HIS BROTHER IS FAMOUS.
Couple of million are spent on that already.....
Are you suggesting more? Track record is so stellar.

They are saying they need a bigger base to cull from.

Originally Posted by tennis5

Well, we already have that. It is called TAUT.
LOT OF MONEY SPENT THERE...... IT HAS BEEN ADVERTISED A BIT.

Yes, and it is a wise move. Your point?

Originally Posted by tennis5

Every section has local tournaments and many different levels.
But, local competition outside of California and Florida is very limited for playing at a high national level.........
I would think you would know this since you are posting about the National changes here,
but will assume you live in California or Florida, and don't realize that the rest of the country has some smaller sections.

And the very best kids out of those small section will get to play kids from other sections. Sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by tennis5

Ok, let's talk about endless travels.
Maybe, spend 5 minutes reading about the new regionals and you would realize that geographically they are even worse than they are now.......... And farther away.

And thankfully it only affects small number of elite players, many of whom will be supported by USTA - awesome!

Originally Posted by tennis5

Who cares? Well, I know you don't as you have planned out already what your daughter will be doing.....
And your rational for planning it out...

I plan things out so that I don't have to ask for handouts from 3rd party or rely on some organizations to include my daughter.

Originally Posted by tennis5

Wait, so the USTA should only care about the top 1% and the very bottom,
but not the middle kids who might want to play college tennis?
99% of the tournament kids are trying to get to college tennis.
Cuts in national tournaments reduces exposure.
I understand you are not concerned about that as you state you do not aspire for your daughter to play college tennis,
but some of us do.....

Yes, they should only care about the top 1%. Because at the end of the day, USTA's mission is to grow the game and maximize participation. Getting more kids early exposed to tennis does that, and making it easier for young kids to play does that. And they have rolled out new programs to achieve that. It also helps to have Americans at the top of the tour, which is why you care about the top 1%.

College tennis has almost no impact and USTA should not care about developing a feeder system. In the age of YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Internet, the coaches will find you, if you are talented enough. Look at how many foreign kids you never heard of getting scholarships.

I understand many of you have invested a lot to get to where you (and your kid) are. But you knew going in ROI was low. Play for the love, not for points.

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

What's even sadder about this is in your own posts you say you have no interest in having your daughter play outside her section. You think it has a bad ROI. So, to be blunt, why don't you mind you own business ? Or better yet, why don't you go bother the old folks and leave the kids alone. I mean, the last time I checked, the over 65 3.5+ division was having a national team tournament next month. And its sanctioned by the USTA for Christ sake! Guess what, nobody at that tournament has a chance of being the next Andre Agassi either. So why are the leaving their section ??? Why aren't you over at Adult Tennis league board saying we should gut the national adult league tournaments becuase all these silly geriatrics are making a bad investment decisions ? I mean, seriously, they ave medical bills coming up, grand children they need to take care of, they shouldn't be allowed to fly all over the country for tennis tournaments. We need to save them from themselves. If they win the tournament, they get a trophy and a picture in the USTA magazine(and a ratings bump). How can they resist ?????

I have been saying that.

I think having nationals for USTA leagues breed nothing but sandbagging and cause more trouble than what its worth. If I was the head of USTA, that is the first thing I woud do - get rid of nationals.

The same goes for the juniors. Nationals should only be for kids with realistic chances to go pro, opening it up to more just cause problems down the line.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by gameboy

I have been saying that.

I think having nationals for USTA leagues breed nothing but sandbagging and cause more trouble than what its worth. If I was the head of USTA, that is the first thing I woud do - get rid of nationals.

The same goes for the juniors. Nationals should only be for kids with realistic chances to go pro, opening it up to more just cause problems down the line.

Seriously ? Holy crap man, I was joking. It was an analogy ad-absurdum. Is there any place you don't stick you self-righteous nose ? I hope you are pulling my leg....

You're an even bigger stick in the mud than I imagined.

You just don't get it. The USTA is non-profit organization that is supposed to be responsive to its members. A democracy, of sorts. If the seniors want to fly around the country, that's their prerogative.

The junior competition should be what the parents of the Juniors want it to be. They are the constituents being served, they should decide, not PD, or some busy body like yourself who just thinks you are so much damn smarter than us.

[10s4US]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Exactly who is forcing all these kids to go to these tournaments ? Name names. Seriously, who is putting a gun to their head and saying "you must go to all of these tournaments" ? People want to go to them, not just for the points, for the experience. Nobody ever has to go to a tennis tournament. Let me guess, they just don't know how stupid they are you are just trying to save them from themselves ?



First of all, Tennis is not every other sport. Second, the changes don't accomplish this, they force kids to go to regional tournaments in one of four regions that are most likely father away from where they live than the current regional tournaments. So not only are the changes flawed conceptually, they are even more flawed in the implementation, they don't even implement the objectives they claim to have.



And there you go 10S4US, we wound up exactly where I said we would would, only took 24 posts.

Gameboy,
you want your kid to play local do it
Similarly others should have nat'l opportunities
There need be a free flow pipeline of progressions
for all to the top
Stifiling the Top 200-1000 WILL limit pro development as well
Where do you think the pros will come from? Not that that should be the only goal or even major focus of Natl Jr compettiton as other have said that should be two seperate goals .
After reading your reasoning its clear you have your own position outside the best interest for the majority but thanks for fueling the Nat'l cause

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by 10s4US

Gameboy,
you want your kid to play local do it
Similarly others should have nat'l opportunities
There need be a free flow pipeline of progressions
for all to the top
Stifiling the Top 200-1000 WILL limit pro development as well
Where do you think the pros will come from? Not that that should be the only goal or even major focus of Natl Jr compettiton as other have said that should be two seperate goals .
After reading your reasoning its clear you have your own position outside the best interest for the majority but thanks for fueling the Nat'l cause

Don't bother arguing with gameboy.

The more the changes upset you the happier he is.

See, he knows what's best for you, he's smarter than you. You're just an immature, irresponsible person having a tantrum.

You need to understand that if your child is not ranked in the top 100, wanting to participate in a tournament more than 50+ miles from you home is clearly a non-optimal financial decision. That's not acceptable. It's his job to save you from this. He understands that you may not like him now, but in 15 years when your child is playing 7.5+ mixed doubles and gone to college on all the money he saved you and gotten a safe, secure degree, like an MBA or a DDS, you will look back an be grateful to him.

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

You just don't get it. The USTA is non-profit organization that is supposed to be responsive to its members. A democracy, of sorts. If the seniors want to fly around the country, that's their prerogative.

The junior competition should be what the parents of the Juniors want it to be. They are the constituents being served, they should decide, not PD, or some busy body like yourself who just thinks you are so much damn smarter than us.

No, you don't get it. There is NOTHING in the charter of USTA about being a Democracy (it is probably where your mis-guided sense of entitlement comes from). If it was every member would get a vote, but you don't.

If you don't like how it is run you can stop paying your dues, and go create you own association.

Even if it was, the issue only affects tiny percentage of the members. To imply that this is some issue that is even on the radar of most members is pretty delusional. People do not care about this quixotic quest. They are fine with what USTA has done.

BTW complaining about sandbagging is probably the #1 complaint on the league forum. I guess you believe all that is just absurd...

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

See, he knows what's best for you, he's smarter than you. You're just an immature, irresponsible person having a tantrum.

I disagree with your analysis of Gameboy's points and your assessment of how he attains his happiness.

He has not stated or suggested that anyone is immature or irresponsible. You are the only one who has done that.

I don't think anyone in this thread is immature or irresponsible.

But if you think the shoe fits.............

[kme5150]

It is so easy and cheap during the younger years. I don't know why some parents do not understand this.

There is not one single college coach that cares about how good your player was when they were 12. They only care about how good they are when they are after their Junior year of high school. So, that means when they are roughly 17.

Players who are truly competitive on the national level are dominating in their section one level up, if not 2. If your 12 year old is not the #1 or #2 player in the 14s in your section then they are not truly a "National" level player. I am sorry if this sounds cold but it is the truth. There are a few exceptions but for the most part it is very accurate. The reason is because the top 14s are playing 16s and so on.

I never understood going to National events and seeing kids that would lose 0&0, in both the main and back draws. If there is that big of a difference in levels then you should not be taking your player there.

I get asked all the time whether a player is ready to play a certain tournament. It is very simple, do you think they can win 2 rounds in the main? If the answer is no, then they are not ready. There are times when you get stuck playing the #1 seed but that is the nice thing about the USTA system, you are not stuck going home right away. You get the opportunity to fight your way through the back draw.

Stop worrying about playing "National" events and worry more about playing kids that are older than they are. In college, very few Freshman play Freshman, they usually are playing somebody who is older. The sooner they get used to it the better.

I have not heard of one single 12 year old that is the #1 in the B18s in their section. That means that everybody can save money in the lower ages, until that happens.