Why do racquets with a small head size have such high prestige among some people?

[TheRed]

Originally Posted by royfrombigd

Honestly, the guys that are ripping winners with a 98" head racquet, would just end up adjusting and rip winners with a 90" head and vice versa. Racquet headsize, weight and string can make some difference, but at the end of the day it is all about technique and consistency. And with this self knowledge, I'm contemplating switching racquets again .

I don't have a stance on this debate but I would disagree with your first sentence. I don't think most would be ripping winners with a smaller head. I'm a 5.0 but probably an extreme case. I've never been a very clean hitter for my level, in part because I hit with more spin than anyone I've ever played. If you have me a 90" racquet, my game would suffer against players my level. On the other hand, I have a 4.5 friend that I regularly beat 2 and 3 but he plays fine with a 90" racquet because he hits fairly flat. I'd guess that most players would play worse with a smaller head. 5" is not insignificant. It doesn't create less mishits but it makes your 50mph forehand 55, and your 25 mph stretch backhand 35 mph. That's where the big difference.

[TTech321]

I use what Federer uses cause he is my IDOL! haha, No seriously I use a 90" cause it's the only racquet I can use where I can keep my balls in the court, swing away, and win matches. I started out using the APD cause I wanted to hit massive topspin like Rafa, haha that didn't last long, switched to the 95" Ncode after my friend let me borrow his, but I found that one still wasn't right. Tried another guys 90, and magically all my shots were going in the court, I can hit as hard as I wanted and as long as I had good footwork, racquet face control, and a smooth swing, it was bombs away.

I've tried hitting with my friends Pure Drive, and I can't keep more than 2 shots in the court during a warm up rally. When we play matches my friend wins most of them, but not cause of his 100" frame, he's been playing tennis since he was a kid, and was #1 singles on his HS team. I started playing after turning 20 and learned my strokes from watching TV and YouTube LOL.

So back to the topic of why I think a lot of players use small head sizes. What I see when I go out of the courts is players buying and using racquets that help them win. Out here at the rec level, winning is all about CONTROL.

Smaller head = More Control
More Control = More Win
More Win = ???

On a side note, here is a vid where my buddy takes a shot to the head for shying away from the ball.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjYaNk62zyQ

[Hi I'm Ray]

Originally Posted by TTech321

On a side note, here is a vid where my buddy takes a shot to the head for shying away from the ball.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjYaNk62zyQ

Hey which city are those courts in?

[ttwarrior1]

Yet to here a good answer

[sansaephanh]

"Why do racquets with a small head size have such high prestige among some people? "

Topic at hand. Get back on track before i derail it with talk of boobies.

[Relinquis]

Two reasons for prestige:
- Achievement: The guys with the most notable successes in tennis have, for the most part, used small headed sticks.
- Quality: Generally speaking, the smaller headed sticks are heavier and have higher swing weights, this makes them more stable and gives the player the ability to hit a more powerfull shot*. The pros use heavier sticks.

Make a list of the top 5 greatest male tennis players of all time who use smaller head sticks (<94" ) and compare to the same list for larger head sticks (>99"). Which list is more accomplished?

* Given the same swing speed as a lighter stick.

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

I've played with 90", 95", and 100" frames.

I believe smaller heads are probably better for rec players, especially low level rec players for the following reasons:

1. Our shots tend to be lower velocity so any "sweet spot" advantage of larger frames doesn't matter much

2. Our games are won with consistency and placement rather than power and smaller heads support that objective better

3. Depth control is difficult for noobs made even more difficult for powerful, larger head frames...small, lower power frames make it easier to comtrol depth.

To control the power of larger heads you need to have great timing and precision in your strokes since any error gets amplified. Pros have that, we rec players don't.

The problem? Nadal and his likes hit amazing spinny shots with their 100" heads and the industry wants to market similar frames to adoring fans eager to buy "Nadal's" frame.

Recently I did a demo for my boys to teach them the importance of placement vs power as a new player. Using an AG 4D 100 and 4D 200 I played with them with my arms and hands down at my sides. We hit balls back and forth in a rally with my hands essentially tied to my sides. Even with these low powered frames I could hit the ball to the opposite baseline with ease. Even low powered modern frames provide enough power that with a flick of the wrist and a little spin of the body "no armed man" can knock a shot to the opposite fence.

Meanwhile, at low-mid level men's rec tennis, you have guys trying to smash the ball with their Nadal-wannabe-frames far beyond their skill resulting in tons of UEs.

Imo smaller heads is not about being elite. Quite the opposite. It's a recognition that I can't consistently hit amazingly hard top spin shots off any ball like Nadal et al. I can do so off a floater but otherwise I need to focus on placement rather than power and smaller heads are far superior to larger heads in that department.

Definitely agree! If a pro can't control such high powered racquets with cheap nylon and loose tension, what chances has average joe got?

[maxpotapov]

Originally Posted by sansaephanh

"Why do racquets with a small head size have such high prestige among some people? "

Topic at hand. Get back on track before i derail it with talk of boobies.

Err... Because they look manly. Especially PS 85. Or even better, a baseball bat.
Think Jim Courier.

[pshulam]

... 5" is not insignificant.

5% - is it significant? You will be the judge.

It doesn't create less mishits but it makes your 50mph forehand 55, and your 25 mph stretch backhand 35 mph. That's where the big difference.

Where do you get this stat? Is it based on your personal history, magic hat, empirical scientific studies? A difference in 5% in head size (while keeping everything else the same or constant, i.e., shape, beam width, swing weight, weight, string type, string tension, etc) can produce these results?

[TTech321]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ray

Hey which city are those courts in?

The courts are in Milpitas California, we have a lot of lite outdoor courts out here in San Jose and Milpitas.

Btw, There I've seen a guy use the Jummy Connors backhand out here too hahaha

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by Broly4

Prestige is what is at stake in the title of this tread.
The preference of a smaller head has to do with feel and game style, not so much with perfomance, no modern player (heavy topspin) could play better with an 85-90 racquet than with an 95-100 (all other specs being equal). On the other hand, if you have a classic game style, it's possible that you get not only better feel but also a better performance from a mid head size racquet.
Break Point saved.

Federer and Safin do OK with 90" and 93" racket heads with the modern game. Federer's spin rate is not as high as Nadal's but Federer's spin rate is higher than most other pros. Federer also has the best touch and precision I have ever, ever seen.

[TheRed]

Originally Posted by pshulam

5% - is it significant? You will be the judge.


Where do you get this stat? Is it based on your personal history, magic hat, empirical scientific studies? A difference in 5% in head size (while keeping everything else the same or constant, i.e., shape, beam width, swing weight, weight, string type, string tension, etc) can produce these results?

It's obviously not a stat because everyone's speed on their strokes is different. I'm trying to make the point that the 5" gives an extra bit of oomph on some shots, and that's where the benefits are.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by TheRed

It's obviously not a stat because everyone's speed on their strokes is different. I'm trying to make the point that the 5" gives an extra bit of oomph on some shots, and that's where the benefits are.

Power is a function of momentum (weght x velocity), racket flex and ball deformation on impact, not really the head size.

Although longer mains and more open string patters associated with bigger racket heads will give you a higher launch angle, so the ball may fly further given same velocity.

[anubis]

OK, here's the answer:

--Small head size racquets have such high prestige because they were the most common racquets amongst many of our own tennis heros from the 80s and 90s. They were the tools of the "professionals" and so therefore they have this mystique about them.

That's all. They're not "better racquets", they aren't even the "best" racquet. They are the "classic" racquets from a long time ago when the game was different than it is now. They were the standard frame for a long time and they were the tools that so many top ATP pros won millions of dollars and numerous awards with.

So the question remains: is it right for me? Is it right for you? My answer is: depends on your game. Same answer as a lot of folks here have given.

But in my opinion, I think that heavy, low powered, small head size frames can actually make it harder for amateur players to consistently perform well for 2 or 3 hour long matches in the hot sun -- and keep your UE's low. I think they can cause more harm than good and in some cases actually keep players from performing their best. These classic frames take a lot of skill to use properly.

So yes, it is sexy to use Federer's frame, and yes you may or may not play any better than with a Pure Drive -- but you may be making it harder for yourself to succeed in the long run. These classic racquets require:
--more stamina to wield
--greater hand/eye coordination to really connect with the sweet spot
--excellent footwork and timing
--better anticipation of where the ball is going
--better stroke/technique in order to keep the ball in play
--significantly faster swing speed to generate the same velocity as you can with a Pure Drive with a slower swing

Of course, ATP pros have all of these requirements in spades. That's why they can wield them and make magic happen.

But for the rest of us mere mortals, perhaps we need to acknowledge that we are not pros and we are playing for fun, not millions of dollars. Sometimes playing with a "tweener" can make life a whole lot easier.

[LeeD]

Small head size, superior vision.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by anubis

OK, here's the answer:

--Small head size racquets have such high prestige because they were the most common racquets amongst many of our own tennis heros from the 80s and 90s. They were the tools of the "professionals" and so therefore they have this mystique about them.

That's all. They're not "better racquets", they aren't even the "best" racquet. They are the "classic" racquets from a long time ago when the game was different than it is now. They were the standard frame for a long time and they were the tools that so many top ATP pros won millions of dollars and numerous awards with.

So the question remains: is it right for me? Is it right for you? My answer is: depends on your game. Same answer as a lot of folks here have given.

But in my opinion, I think that heavy, low powered, small head size frames can actually make it harder for amateur players to consistently perform well for 2 or 3 hour long matches in the hot sun -- and keep your UE's low. I think they can cause more harm than good and in some cases actually keep players from performing their best. These classic frames take a lot of skill to use properly.

So yes, it is sexy to use Federer's frame, and yes you may or may not play any better than with a Pure Drive -- but you may be making it harder for yourself to succeed in the long run. These classic racquets require:
--more stamina to wield
--greater hand/eye coordination to really connect with the sweet spot
--excellent footwork and timing
--better anticipation of where the ball is going
--better stroke/technique in order to keep the ball in play
--significantly faster swing speed to generate the same velocity as you can with a Pure Drive with a slower swing

Of course, ATP pros have all of these requirements in spades. That's why they can wield them and make magic happen.

But for the rest of us mere mortals, perhaps we need to acknowledge that we are not pros and we are playing for fun, not millions of dollars. Sometimes playing with a "tweener" can make life a whole lot easier.

-- more stamina to wieldNot really, you need mass to play good tennis. Nadal's tweener has roughly the same SWINGWEIGHT as Federer's player's racket. Same swingweight requires same effort resulting in same level of fatigue. This is false.
--greater hand/eye coordination to really connect with the sweet spotCan be false - The sweetspot is bigger on a stock blx 90 than a stock APD due to blx's higher swingweight
--excellent footwork and timing False again, you need excellent footwork and timing to play good tennis regardless of racket type. The belief that a lighter, wider, bigger racket allows you to magically recover with a flip of the wrist is a myth. With either type racket, you need a smooth, acelerating controlled stroke. For me, I can make a defensive shot when out of position with a heavy racket - much easier with a heavy thin beam control racket than a tweener as the tweener tends to launch the ball
--better anticipation of where the ball is going False. Are you saying the heavier classic racket is going to slow down your court speed? No way unless a few grams makes you slower. To me, this is like saying playing without underwear will make you faster. This is silly. Lighter may be more manueverable but most pros playing 98-100 are playing HEAVY rackets that most here could not manuever well.
--better stroke/technique in order to keep the ball in play Why, 99% of us can learn to make a smooth swing with a heavier racket with a wee bit of practice. A 100" head sprays the ball more than a 90 or 93" head and is harder to control - it requires better technique to control the livelier stringbed and most end up stringing the 100" head tighter to control it which isn't that good for you health. Rafa uses medium tension super thick all poly for control and many of the other 98"-100" pros even string poly >55lbs

I think the main reason more pros are playing in the 95-100" zone now is simply because that's what they grew up with.

Also, you can get just as much power from a 90-93" if you lower your tension a bit and still maintain excellent control. Power is a function of racket mass, swing speed, string type, string tension, and string length. I hate the feeling of power from string length and string tighter with 98" heads to overcome this trampoline effect.

Really, it is just preference. You can play modern tennis with a 90" or 100" or anything in between.