Top 10 women players of all time at this point- where would you place Serena

[Steve0904]

I cannot say Serena is the best. I listened to JMac go on about it ad nauseum at Wimbledon, and the USO, and I just wanted to throw my remote at the TV. Just because Serena has the best womens serve, and overall power game doesn't make her the best. The Williams sister revolutionized the womens game with inordinate amounts of power, and Serena could dominate with said power, but her acheivements as of today are not close enough for me to put her above any of Graf, Navratilova, or Evert. All of whom have at least 4 more slams than her.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by kiki

So your new crush is Justine Henin?

But I understand your lack of visual knowledge on Hingis, since you were not probably born when she was playing.

dumbo, just because when I say that a player superior to your crush is in fact superior, doesn't mean I like that player ....

but then you are too thick to get that ... all you think about is your crushes ....otherwise you have near zero knowledge of tennis ....

fact is there at atleast 10 female players superior to hingis - graf, navratilova, court, evert, serena, king, conolloy, wills, lenglen,seles, venus, henin , goolagong .......

[TMF]

Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida

Saying Serena is the GOAT now is as ridiculous as *******s saying he was better than Sampras when he had 9-12 slams.

Absolutely. It's ridiculous when you consider Serena is so vastly behind other great players(total titles, winning %, slams, weeks at #1, domination, etc). Serena at best is equivalent to Nadal in the ATP, and Nadal fans would have something to say about that since his weeks at #1, slam count, total titles are closer to the past/present great players.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by abmk

dumbo, just because when I say that a player superior to your crush is in fact superior, doesn't mean I like that player ....

but then you are too thick to get that ... all you think about is your crushes ....otherwise you have near zero knowledge of tennis ....

fact is there at atleast 10 female players superior to hingis - graf, navratilova, court, evert, serena, king, conolloy, wills, lenglen,seles, venus, henin , goolagong .......

Did you hear that Hingis owned Seles? clueless...

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by abmk

well henin's 2003 was wayyyy better than hingis' 98/99 .....and her 2006 was also better than hingis' 98/99 ......

the fact that you even begin to argue hingis was best player in 98/99 but henin wasn't in 2003/2006 (not that I agree with that ) just goes to show that henin faced better competition by some distance in 2003/06 than hingis in 98/99 ....

or maybe it just means there was alot more depth in 98/99 than 2003 and 2006, and hence it was hard for anyone to have as good a record as the best 2 players in 2003 and 2006 did. 2003 was only about 3 players Henin, Venus, and Serena, and 2 of those didnt play after early July due to injury. Kim was good but was a HUGE choker that year, especialy vs Justine. Their 2 slam finals that year were pathetic. 2006 was again only about 3 players Mauresmo, Henin, and Sharapova, nobody else was playing well or at the top level. 1998 and 1999 you had Hingis, Davenport, Novotna, Graf, Seles, Venus, Serena, Pierce, Martinez, Sanchez Vicario, all as real contenders. It is similar to how the mens game today has no depth at all outside the top 4, but atleast the top 3 includes 2 of the top 5 players of all time (Federer and Nadal) and another all time great (Djokovic), which Mauresmo and Sharapova obviously are not, and Henin way back in 2003 was not yet either.

[Gizo]

I agree that 1999-2003 was a golden age in women's tennis, but not 1998. Sure it was in improvement from 1997, but Serena still wasn't a force on the tour yet, not reaching a WTA final or posting a significant grand slam run until 1999. Davenport and Venus had improved significantly from 1997 of course but I think that Venus stepped up another gear in 1999, which was a truly outstanding year. 1998 I think was merely a good or decent year, not really any better than 2004-2007.

And Hingis only won slam title from 1999-2003 anyway.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by kiki

Did you hear that Hingis owned Seles? clueless...

hingis owned a past her prime Seles , so ? But seles is far away the superior player, both achievements wise as well as at peak ....

santaro owned safin , so ? doesn't mean santaro was the superior player ....safin was ...

but then that's too much information for you to process .....

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by abmk

hingis owned a past her prime Seles , so ? But seles is far away the superior player, both achievements wise as well as at peak ....

Even a past her prime Seles was a very formidable player. Other than Venus, Serena, Davenport, Hingis, and Graf she owned everyone else including some fine players Capriati, Mauresmo, Clijsters, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez. Henin herself wasnt exactly owned but went 3-4 vs this past prime Seles, and Seles was alot older and further past her prime by then than when Hingis played and owned her.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by kiki

Much more than Roland Garros ( where Martina was robbed her career slam by french crowds, umpires and nasty Steffi Graf)

where´s Joe Pike when you really need him
talk about sore losers, here´s a sore fan
the main reason for Hingis losing that final was herself. she couldn´t handle the situation and reacted like a spoiled brat. can happen when you´re very young and used to winning.
the french crowds are always partisan, Graf played a good match that day and was in no way nasty but focused.
i hope Hingis has a more mature remembrance of that final

[dominikk1985]

Behind Graf, navratilova, evert and court but ahead of henin, seles, hingis and venus and billie jean king.

she could have been better had she not gotten overweight and enjoyed her "celebrity life" but concentrated on tennis. that era was terrible and she didn't capitalize enough considering her talent.

when she was into it she usually won but a real champion is always 100% motivated and not just if she is in the right mood. steffi and martina never got fat or were out of shape. I have great respect for serena as a tennis champion and I actually root for her over all those eastern europeans but a real champion should be a professional all the time.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I agree that 1999-2003 was a golden age in women's tennis, but not 1998. Sure it was in improvement from 1997, but Serena still wasn't a force on the tour yet, not reaching a WTA final or posting a significant grand slam run until 1999. Davenport and Venus had improved significantly from 1997 of course but I think that Venus stepped up another gear in 1999, which was a truly outstanding year. 1998 I think was merely a good or decent year, not really any better than 2004-2007.

And Hingis only won slam title from 1999-2003 anyway.

Another belitteling Martina?

[Gizo]

I'm not belittling Hingis at all. She was a great player, but just not as great as Henin in my opinion, who put together a better set of accomplishments despite playing in a tougher era. I don't Hingis is as great as Venus either.

None of those 3 players belong in the top 10 anyway. In no particular order, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, Wills-Moody, Serena, Connolly, Lenglen, King and Seles are all greater.

[Tennishacker]

I just buy into all time great lists.

Too difficult to compare different era's.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I'm not belittling Hingis at all. She was a great player, but just not as great as Henin in my opinion, who put together a better set of accomplishments despite playing in a tougher era. I don't Hingis is as great as Venus either.

None of those 3 players belong in the top 10 anyway. In no particular order, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, Wills-Moody, Serena, Connolly, Lenglen, King and Seles are all greater.

I agree. hingis was a very good player but I think that henin is really underrated.

henin is clearly behind serena (although she dominated her one season) but ahead of hingis, venus, davenport, clijsters and all the eastern european women (I just make one person out of all those eastern europeans like ivanovic, sharapova, azarenka, kournikova...).

I would rank her just behind seles about 6-7 or so. henin had a relatively short peak compared to the other greats but in that time she was super dominant against a very strong opposition.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I'm not belittling Hingis at all. She was a great player, but just not as great as Henin in my opinion, who put together a better set of accomplishments despite playing in a tougher era. I don't Hingis is as great as Venus either.

None of those 3 players belong in the top 10 anyway. In no particular order, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, Wills-Moody, Serena, Connolly, Lenglen, King and Seles are all greater.

Seles, while an all timer is a bit overrated.IMO, a non Wimbledon winner does not have a right to be top 10.Bueno or Goolagong or Dorothy Lambert Chambers are as good a choice as Seles.Why not Venus?She is almost as good as her sister.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I agree. hingis was a very good player but I think that henin is really underrated.

henin is clearly behind serena (although she dominated her one season) but ahead of hingis, venus, davenport, clijsters and all the eastern european women (I just make one person out of all those eastern europeans like ivanovic, sharapova, azarenka, kournikova...).

I would rank her just behind seles about 6-7 or so. henin had a relatively short peak compared to the other greats but in that time she was super dominant against a very strong opposition.

Hingis played more tough competition and a bigger number of all time greats, Henin´s concurrence is good but still not super (Sharapova,Kuznetsova,Maursesmo,Clijsters,2 Williams vs Seles,Graf,2 Williams,Davenport,Capriati,Sanchez,Martinez,Novot na,Pierce, Clijsters and, of course, still very tough Steffi Graf, no colour there)

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by kiki

Seles, while an all timer is a bit overrated.IMO, a non Wimbledon winner does not have a right to be top 10.Bueno or Goolagong or Dorothy Lambert Chambers are as good a choice as Seles.Why not Venus?She is almost as good as her sister.

Venus at her peak was better than Seles at her peak, atleast on faster surfaces. She has alot of major holes in her career though, so many that many even rank her below Henin (wrongfully IMO). Venus is hard to rank. Her clay and Australian Open records are massively dissapointing, and in general her career now looks very grass heavy. She showed tremendous promise to be an all time great at her peak from 99-2003 but was victimized by a peak Serena in 2002-2003, and has fizzled out since.

I think it would be hard to rank her overall career ahead of Seles, even if I think Venus at her best is the better player on all fast courts.

Venus at her best is almost as good as Serena at her best, some even say just as good, but she doesnt have Serena's unquestionable thirst for success and she isnt as good a match player over an entire career.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by kiki

Hingis played more tough competition and a bigger number of all time greats, Henin´s concurrence is good but still not super (Sharapova,Kuznetsova,Maursesmo,Clijsters,2 Williams vs Seles,Graf,2 Williams,Davenport,Capriati,Sanchez,Martinez,Novot na,Pierce, Clijsters and, of course, still very tough Steffi Graf, no colour there)

The Hingis/Venus/Serena/Davenport era is still a very special one IMO. That was arguably the time womens tennis and its excitement at its highest. Those were the big 4 and the excitment over their rivalries and battles captivated fans and drew people to the WTA in a way it hadnt since the Evert and Navratilova days. You also had at various times legends Graf and Seles even if near the end of their careers, other great veterans like Sanchez and Novotna, other stronger contenders like Pierce and Mauresmo, and other at the time promising upstarts like Kournikova and Lucic even if they fizzled out since. I dont remember the Henin era ever having that excitment. In 2003 there was some excitement when you had a big 4 of Venus/Serena/Henin/Clijsters, and Capriati and Davenport and Mauresmo all hanging in, but the 2 Henin-Clijsters finals sucked since Kim couldnt hold up to the pressure of big matches yet, and thereafter Venus and Serena went down injured, Kim went down injured, Henin went down ill, and it never reached that point of interest during the Henin era ever again. It was mostly just Henin lording over lesser champions like Sharapova, Mauresmo, Kuznetova, and Clijsters, and a times half commited and unfit Williams factoring in too, and even while leading that era generally not dominating despite virtually no real competition at her level.

[dominikk1985]

could venus have been broken mentally by getting owned by her little sister?

I mean as an older sibling you are used to dominate your little brother and sister from day 1 (doesn't mean you bully him but you know that you are superior).

when you later find out your little sister kicks your *** that is mentally very hard.

the opposite is less hard because the younger brother or sister is used to be the weaker one. for example wladimir klitschko never had a problem that vitali was the big brother, he got KTFOed by corrie sanders and then vitali brutalized sanders in the revenge fight. most would consider that embarassing but wladimir seemed fine with this because he acknowledged vitali as the boss. it even seemed that the sanders loss bothered vitali more than himself (vitali could generally take losses not as well).

so maybe venus never overcame being crushed by her little sister mentally.

[NadalAgassi]

I do think Serena ruined Venus's career essentialy. Not only talking all those slams away from her in 2002-2003, but I agree Venus never fully got over by overtaken and ultimately owned by Serena for awhile. Even though she outwardly was happy for Serena, there was a part of her that died inside I think, and she just was never completely the same Venus again. Add to that her illness which we now know has been ongoing for years, and most likely impacted her performances on non grass surfaces, especialy slower courts, ever since 2003.