GOAT Discussions

[Mustard]

Of course, if there had been open fields, then we don't know how the amateur players would have responded to playing in the same field as the professionals. They might have been inspired, and that would have changed things.

What we've done above is take the years as they actually happened, i.e. when the top professional players were better, and predict the winners as it stood.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

kiki, You forgot strong Segura.

He was a great second stringer, that´s right.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

He was a great second stringer, that´s right.

Segura was arguably number one in some years.

[boredone3456]

Originally Posted by pc1

Segura was arguably number one in some years.

I could see arguing him as #1 in 1951 possibly but what year other than that? Maybe 1952 if you went out on a bit of a limb?

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by boredone3456

I could see arguing him as #1 in 1951 possibly but what year other than that? Maybe 1952 if you went out on a bit of a limb?

I have Segura as number 1 for 1952, narrowly over Gonzales. I have Kramer as number 1 in 1951, with Segura second.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by boredone3456

I could see arguing him as #1 in 1951 possibly but what year other than that? Maybe 1952 if you went out on a bit of a limb?

The key word is arguably. I don't necessarily believe it but some have argued it in the past if I recall correctly. But 1952 is an arguable year. He won the US Pro Claycourt Champs, the Canadian Pro Champs, the US Pro over Gonzalez.

My point to Kiki was that Segura was not a journeyman as Kiki has written in the past. I don't necessarily believe Segura was the best in either year. The statement was to make a point.

[kiki]

Segura was a top 6 player in the pro ranks, with Hoad,Gonzales,Rosewall,Sedgman and Kramer being superior to him and Trabert a bit better.with such enormous competition, being ranked nº 6 is really high and that proves that Segura belonged to the elite.But was not in the same echelon as the true champions.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by kiki

Segura was a top 6 player in the pro ranks, with Hoad,Gonzales,Rosewall,Sedgman and Kramer being superior to him and Trabert a bit better.with such enormous competition, being ranked nº 6 is really high and that proves that Segura belonged to the elite.But was not in the same echelon as the true champions.

Segura was the second or third best player of the 1950s overall. Gonzales was way out on his own as the best of the decade, and second best of the decade was either Segura or Sedgman. I'm not really counting Kramer as he retired in early 1954, and only made brief returns thereafter.

[hoodjem]

1950—Kramer/Segura
1951—Kramer
1952—Gonzales/Sedgman
1953—Kramer(6)/Segura(2)
1954—Gonzales
1955—Gonzales
1956—Gonzales
1957—Gonzales
1958—Gonzales(6)/Sedgman(2)
1959—Hoad

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1950—Kramer/Segura
1951—Kramer
1952—Gonzales/Sedgman
1953—Kramer(6)/Segura(2)
1954—Gonzales
1955—Gonzales
1956—Gonzales
1957—Gonzales
1958—Gonzales(6)/Sedgman(2)
1959—Hoad

Mine is:

1950: Jack Kramer
1951: Jack Kramer
1952: Pancho Segura
1953: Jack Kramer
1954: Pancho Gonzales
1955: Pancho Gonzales
1956: Pancho Gonzales
1957: Pancho Gonzales
1958: Pancho Gonzales
1959: Pancho Gonzales


Top 2:

1950: Jack Kramer, Pancho Segura
1951: Jack Kramer, Pancho Segura
1952: Pancho Segura, Pancho Gonzales
1953: Jack Kramer, Frank Sedgman
1954: Pancho Gonzales, Frank Sedgman
1955: Pancho Gonzales, Pancho Segura
1956: Pancho Gonzales, Frank Sedgman
1957: Pancho Gonzales, Pancho Segura
1958: Pancho Gonzales, Frank Sedgman
1959: Pancho Gonzales, Lew Hoad

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Mine is:

1950: Jack Kramer
1951: Jack Kramer
1952: Pancho Segura
1953: Jack Kramer
1954: Pancho Gonzales
1955: Pancho Gonzales
1956: Pancho Gonzales
1957: Pancho Gonzales
1958: Pancho Gonzales
1959: Pancho Gonzales

Yep. I'm starting to re-think my own list (as posted over three years ago).

I've learned much over that time.

[boredone3456]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Segura was the second or third best player of the 1950s overall. Gonzales was way out on his own as the best of the decade, and second best of the decade was either Segura or Sedgman. I'm not really counting Kramer as he retired in early 1954, and only made brief returns thereafter.

I would probably agree with this. He was a consistent presence the entire decade pretty much, even if he was never the outright best for more than a year during it. Peak Kramer was better but he was hardly ever around the majority of the decade. Now if you compare him to Gonzales well he comes off looking poor by comparison, but that does not make him a second tier player. Thats like smashing Arantxa Sanchez Vicario down in the 90's because Steffi was in her own class, or Mandlikova because of Navratilova. He derserves more than that.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by boredone3456

I would probably agree with this. He was a consistent presence the entire decade pretty much, even if he was never the outright best for more than a year during it. Peak Kramer was better but he was hardly ever around the majority of the decade. Now if you compare him to Gonzales well he comes off looking poor by comparison, but that does not make him a second tier player. Thats like smashing Arantxa Sanchez Vicario down in the 90's because Steffi was in her own class, or Mandlikova because of Navratilova. He derserves more than that.

I agree with that.

[urban]

I think, Trabert is a bit underrated here. His 1955 was one of the best amateur seasons ever, and he had to deal with both Hoad and Rosewall. Did the RG-Wim double and won Wim without losing a set. He probably was the best clay courter of the 50s, winning RG amateur and pro each twice. He lost quite heavily on his first pro tour with Gonzalez, but had to play indoors all the time, and seldom had a chance to get to hard courts and clay, which favored his game better. His strength was indeed his backhand, and a strong allcourt game, he was more a hard worker than a genius. I rank him behind Gonzalez, Sedgman in the mid 50s, but ahead of Segura and until 1955 ahead of Hoad and Rosewall.

[Mustard]

How is Trabert ahead of Segura? Gonzales stopped Segura being a 6-time US Pro champion and a Wembley Pro champion, and Segura didn't have the chance to play a French Pro at Roland Garros until 1958. Segura also had his big improvements towards his peak form after his early pro years, unlike Trabert who had an awesome amateur year in 1955 (with all the prestigious majors to show for it) and then turned pro. I think Trabert's best victory was his 5-set win over Gonzales in the 1956 French Pro final. I also agree that Trabert was ahead of Hoad and Rosewall when they were amateurs.

[urban]

I think, you have to rate champions both in their amateur and pro careers. Trabert had the way better amateur career, he was called the second coming of Kramer for a while, and had a respectable pro career, with fine wins at RG, the second a blitz on Rosewall, who was no slouch on clay. Seguras best pro results were in a time frame, the early 50s, when the pro game was in disarray, Kramer playing seldom, and Gonzalez in and out.

[Mustard]

I agree that Trabert had a far superior amateur career to Segura, but that's because Trabert peaked earlier and became the best amateur player in the world before he turned professional. In contrast, Segura turned professional at the same time as Kramer. Segura was brilliant from 1950-1957 in the pros, though. It's a shame that there was no French Pro in nearly all those years and he was injured for the 1956 tournament.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Mustard

I agree that Trabert had a far superior amateur career to Segura, but that's because Trabert peaked earlier and became the best amateur player in the world before he turned professional. In contrast, Segura turned professional at the same time as Kramer. Segura was brilliant from 1950-1957 in the pros, though. It's a shame that there was no French Pro in nearly all those years and he was injured for the 1956 tournament.

Mustard, I agree. I rank Segura ahead of Trabert till 1956, both equal in 1957 and 1959. Interesting: for 1962 Segura was ahead of Trabert again, at 41.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I have changed my "Open Era " majors and given Hoad just another place (AO 1959) instead of Gonzalez. It's so difficult to give Hoad more than four majors because Gonzalez was still at his peak then and Rosewall, Sedgman and Trabert also very strong. I fear that Dan Lobb still will not be satisfied....

No, not at all.
As we saw earlier, Hoad had 13 to 9 edge ON GRASS against Gonzales in 1958 and 1959, peak years for both, and three of the four majors in a hypothetical open tennis would have been on grass, the other on clay, where Hoad had a much better record than Gonzales. So I do not agree that Gonzales would be favoured.
Consider this. At the grand slam venues, Wimbledon, Roland Garros, Forest Hills, and Kooyong, Hoad's record against Gonzales all-time is 6 wins and 3 losses. So I think that Hoad has to ranked ahead in the majors.
Most of Gonzales "major" wins were indoors. Minor majors.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Thanks, Mustard, for your interesting list. That's the kind of discussion I wanted to start. I'm glad that it concurs for large parts with my speculation.

If we add the doubtful years 1968 to 1972 where Laver and Rosewall would probably amass more majors (or have already won several of them) we come to the conclusion that Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver would emerge the most prolific winners just followed by Kramer.

Poor Hoad with only two majors. Don't tell this to Dan!

I have already responded to this.
This reminds me of Eugene Scott'S Dream Tournament, where his all-time favouite players staged dramatic come-from-behind wins in a fantasy championship. Not much of a surprise, but, like the imaginary lists you and Mustard have suggested, it ignores the cold, hard reality of actual results.
As I said, Gonzales had no hope of a French Open win, yet you and Mustard give him several. Also, Gonzales had a losing record against Hoad on grass, a reality which you have chosen to ignore.
Dream on!