Why has Murray's level dropped since the USO?

[Towser83]

Originally Posted by Mainad

I wonder why his level of play seems to have declined so much since his USO victory? I thought winning his first Slam would have finally relaxed him and made him more confident about his game. But in his subsequent 4 tournaments:

Tokyo: Defending champion. Lost to Raonic in the semis after going up a break and holding 2 match points (this was the guy he destroyed in straights at the USO).

Shanghai: Defending champion. Lost to Djokovic in the final after holding 5 match points.

Paris-Bercy: Normally never gets past the quarters. Didn't even get that far this time. Lost in the 3rd round to qualifier Janowicz after holding yet another match point.

WTF: IMO poor form throughout even though he qualified from the Group stages. Lost in straights to Federer in the semis after holding a break in the first set (this was the guy he beat in straights by the same margin in the semis at Shanghai).

Is he just physically and/or mentally tired after the pressures this year of making his first Wimbledon final, winning the Olympic gold medal and his first ever Grand Slam title?

Why has he lost so much focus and drive? Or am I exaggerating the extent of his malaise?

Any thoughts (serious ones, please)?

"this was the guy he beat in straights by the same margin at Shanghai"?

So?? This is the guy who has won 17 slams, most recently winning Wimbledon beating Murray in the final. This is the guy who leads murray in the H2H this year 3-2 (before you bring up overall h2h the point is both this year and overall, they are close) and is 2-2 with Djokovic. This is the guy who is defending WTF champion and has won 6 titles. This is the guy who has won 3 masters titles this year.

You make it sound like Federer is some player murray should beat all the time. If Murray beat Federer 7-6 6-2, there is nothing in the world that should mean Federer can't do the same thing to him next time, especially at the WTF.

Also Murray played very well vs Berdych and Djokovic this week. Djokovic had a bit too much and vs Berdych Murray did.

[Netspirit]

Originally Posted by Ginger ninja

He's probably already in the top 15 players ever to have played the game.

Murray? In top 15 best of all time already?

Like, Federer, Laver, Sampras, Borg, Nadal, Agassi... - and Andy Murray? )

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Netspirit

"How come the clay is slow and high-bouncing on Nadal's side of the court?" No, clay is slow everywhere but is it the very reason why Nadal wins.

Well, I don't know. Are you asking a question here or making a statement?

Originally Posted by Netspirit

Similarly, the wind neutralizes offense in tennis, rewards high-percentage play, gives pushers an advantage over shot-makers, and that 's why Murray beat Djokovic. I am not saying it is not deserved, I am saying the conditions were very unique and this victory does not suggest that Murray suddenly became a tennis legend, will be spanking Djokovic and everybody should be shocked by his SF exit.

I'm sorry but I just reject your assertion that Murray is a simple 'pusher'. He too can make and set up shots. If he were merely a pusher, he would never have advanced as far as he has done. As for becoming a tennis legend, who says that he has? I'm merely asking if you think his play has slackened off somewhat since the USO win? I think it has and I'm querying the reasons for it.

Originally Posted by Netspirit

We are not talking "ifs" here. Federer was physically and mentally drained after the semi-final, which he said himself after it was over. His play in the final was a clear indication of that.

So what was Murray supposed to do? Say, 'Oh dear, Roger's just been in a gruelling semi-final with Delpo. I'd better go easy on him because the poor dear is scarcely going to be able to lift a racquet?' Or maybe the schedulers should have called off the final because Roger was too tired to play it? Or maybe Roger should have just pulled out and handed the medal to Murray? After all, no point in playing it was there when everyone thought he was too tired to give Murray a game anyway!

And I just hope the next time Murray has to play a gruelling semi-final, allowances will be made for HIM if he then goes on to lose badly in the final!

Originally Posted by Netspirit

I want to say that Murray is a one-slam champion, good player like good one-slam champions before him, he has potential to become better and win more, but right now his improvements are moderate and people should not jump his bandwagon just because of the Olympic tournament and the USO. He still has stuff to prove.

Who's jumping on his bandwagon?

[Netspirit]

Originally Posted by Mainad

Who's jumping on his bandwagon?

You are - when asking "why has Murray's level dropped since the USO?".

I am telling you: it has not dropped much, it was not all that high to begin with. He took advantage of conditions and circumstances, which you can disagree with if you want.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Towser83

"this was the guy he beat in straights by the same margin at Shanghai"?

So?? This is the guy who has won 17 slams, most recently winning Wimbledon beating Murray in the final. This is the guy who leads murray in the H2H this year 3-2 (before you bring up overall h2h the point is both this year and overall, they are close) and is 2-2 with Djokovic. This is the guy who is defending WTF champion and has won 6 titles. This is the guy who has won 3 masters titles this year.

Stop being so melodramatic. I wasn't trying to attack Federer's unparalleled record in any way. I was merely trying to make the point that Murray had played with great confidence against Federer only very recently in Shanghai but collapsed ignominiously against him in the 2nd set at the WTF.

Originally Posted by Netspirit

You make it sound like Federer is some player murray should beat all the time. If Murray beat Federer 7-6 6-2, there is nothing in the world that should mean Federer can't do the same thing to him next time, especially at the WTF.

But don't you think it a bit odd that he couldn't make their match a bit closer given their recent record against each other? Well, I do.

Originally Posted by Netspirit

Also Murray played very well vs Berdych and Djokovic this week. Djokovic had a bit too much and vs Berdych Murray did.

Hmmm. I've not been very impressed with Murray all week. Yes, he played just well enough to make the semis but I've been constantly concerned at his level of play in each of his matches. Frankly, I think he was a bit lucky to get out of most of them. Berdych and Tsonga were very error-prone and Murray again let leads slide against both Djokovic and Federer. IMO he has not really been clutch since the USO. know I've seen him play much better.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Netspirit

You are - when asking "why has Murray's level dropped since the USO?".

I am telling you: it has not dropped much, it was not all that high to begin with. He took advantage of conditions and circumstances, which you can disagree with if you want.

All players take advantage of conditions and circumstances. It's ridiculous of you to suggest only Murray does this!

And yes I do disagree with you. IMO he was definitely a notch higher at the USO. That's why he got through so many difficult matches and came back against Djokovic to win the final when it seemed Djokovic had finally turned the tide. He was mentally tough when he needed to be. Something you and other detractors on here never ever thought would be possible.

I want to try and understand why and where this new-found mental toughness, that won him a Slam, has gone since and will it ever return?

[Towser83]

Originally Posted by Mainad

Stop being so melodramatic. I wasn't trying to attack Federer's unparalleled record in any way. I was merely trying to make the point that Murray had played with great confidence against Federer only very recently in Shanghai but collapsed ignominiously against him in the 2nd set at the WTF.

To be honest this thread is a bit melodramtic

Point I'm making is that a top player can beat another guy easily only to have the result reversed the next time. That's sport. It isn't a disaster just cos Murray lost a match to Federer. Federer absolutely should beat him in straights sometimes no matter what the result was last time. Like I expect Murray to win in straights at times. In 2009 Murray bagelled Nadal in Rotterdam then a little while later got destroyed by him in Indian Well.. tennis is unpredictable.

Originally Posted by Netspirit

You are - when asking "why has Murray's level dropped since the USO?".

I am telling you: it has not dropped much, it was not all that high to begin with. He took advantage of conditions and circumstances, which you can disagree with if you want.

While not making excuses like the wind, I have to say that Murray could have gone out of the US Open on a few occaisons.

He had a close one vs Lopez, Cilic choked big time, Berdych could have taken it to 5 sets, possibly another match too? And the final was a really tense one too.

He didn't exactly blow everyone off court. Not taking away from his win, but several matches could have gone either way and he came out on top. Now he's coming out the wrong side in a few matches. It happens. Same thing has happened a bit to Djokovic this year.

Murray's best performance really was the Olympics where he was totally dominant, but when you look at his best of 3 match results, he has loads of shok losses BEFORE the US Open. Raonic in Barcelona, gasquet in Rome, Mahut at Queens, Chardy in Cinci... so maybe his problem has been just in the masters and below, I don't see a massive dip after the US Open.

The problem is certian commentators, jornalists and fans think now Murray has won a slam, he'll win everything, despite the fact the US Open was a really hardfought win and murray worked for years and got to 5 slam finals before he finally did it. It's not going to transform him overnight. But you know, he loses a close match to Djokovic and one less close one to Federer and suddenly his game is in the gutter? No he's just not beating these guys up all the time, his record vs them is pretty good this year.

[veroniquem]

Originally Posted by Mainad

I never cease to be amazed by the number of people on here who put Murray's USO win down to mere luck, as if he basically played no part in it at all! Djokovic's schedule? He played about 5 hours less at the USO than Murray did! Murray had to struggle through several very difficult matches along the way. Djokovic just cruised through. His only hitch being the gale that forced his semi with Ferrer to be postponed. And if you want to dismiss Murray's win because of his opponent's schedule, does that same criteria apply to Federer's 2008 win? After all, Murray's semi with Nadal carried over 2 days because of yet another gale and then he had to play the final the following day after Fed had had a nice 2 days rest! Yet Murray always gets mocked and laughed at because of his poor performance in that first Slam final! Sauce for the goose etc.

It is not MERE luck, I didn't mean to imply that. I said "a bit" lucky. I didn't mean to say he didn't deserve the win. But it is a fact that getting Berd instead of Fed and having one day off before the final helped him. Maybe he would have won USO anyway. It's not Murray's fault of course that they insist on this super Saturday nonsense or that Berd came up with the big upset. I would never mock somebody for winning a slam. A bit of luck is part of the game. It doesn't mean the title is worthless. And yes, Fed's 2008 title was every bit as lucky if not more as that year Murray got shafted by the draw and the schedule even more.
ETA: I'm a bit pissed at him today but all things considered, evidently there is no shame in losing to Fed at WTF even in straights given how much Fed owns the event in general.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Towser83

To be honest this thread is a bit melodramtic

Do you think so? I'm just a bit concerned that Murray has squandered so many match points and leads in 4 tournaments on the trot since New York. I've honestly never known him to be so careless before.

Originally Posted by Towser83

Point I'm making is that a top player can beat another guy easily only to have the result reversed the next time. That's sport. It isn't a disaster just cos Murray lost a match to Federer. Federer absolutely should beat him in straights sometimes no matter what the result was last time. Like I expect Murray to win in straights at times.

Okay, fair point. It's just that Murray is never going to win the WTF in front of his home crowd if he decides to come a cropper every time he comes up against Federer there. Even a slightly sub-par one. Why can't he schedule his losses to him for some Masters tournament somewhere? Honestly, he had better luck against him when the WTF was in Shanghai. He managed to beat him there!

Originally Posted by Towser83

In 2009 Murray bagelled Nadal in Rotterdam then a little while later got destroyed by him in Indian Well.. tennis is unpredictable.

Yes, but I recall it was very windy at 2009 Indian Wells! Obviously Nadal had an unfair advantage!

Originally Posted by Towser83

While not making excuses like the wind, I have to say that Murray could have gone out of the US Open on a few occaisons. He had a close one vs Lopez, Cilic choked big time, Berdych could have taken it to 5 sets, possibly another match too? And the final was a really tense one too.

He didn't exactly blow everyone off court. Not taking away from his win, but several matches could have gone either way and he came out on top. Now he's coming out the wrong side in a few matches. It happens. Same thing has happened a bit to Djokovic this year.

And that's my point. Murray hung in there and was mentally strong at each of the matches he played, no matter how tough and some of them were very tough. His determination amd mental strength saw him through right to the bitter end when he turned around a Djokovic fight back in the final. But since then, it has been a litany of match-point failures and surrendered leads. What happened to that amazing mental toughness and discipline that got him through the USO?

Originally Posted by Towser83

Murray's best performance really was the Olympics where he was totally dominant, but when you look at his best of 3 match results, he has loads of shok losses BEFORE the US Open. Raonic in Barcelona, gasquet in Rome, Mahut at Queens, Chardy in Cinci... so maybe his problem has been just in the masters and below, I don't see a massive dip after the US Open.

He's always been very up and down. I had hoped winning that elusive first Slam would have kept him up for just a little while longer. Just hope he rediscovers it in time for the start of the new season.

Originally Posted by Towser83

The problem is certian commentators, jornalists and fans think now Murray has won a slam, he'll win everything, despite the fact the US Open was a really hardfought win and murray worked for years and got to 5 slam finals before he finally did it. It's not going to transform him overnight. But you know, he loses a close match to Djokovic and one less close one to Federer and suddenly his game is in the gutter? No he's just not beating these guys up all the time, his record vs them is pretty good this year.

Again, fair point. But EIGHT match points? When did you last see Djokovic or Nadal or Federer squander EIGHT match points?

[Towser83]

Originally Posted by Mainad

Do you think so? I'm just a bit concerned that Murray has squandered so many match points and leads in 4 tournaments on the trot since New York. I've honestly never known him to be so careless before.



Okay, fair point. It's just that Murray is never going to win the WTF in front of his home crowd if he decides to come a cropper every time he comes up against Federer there. Even a slightly sub-par one. Why can't he schedule his losses to him for some Masters tournament somewhere? Honestly, he had better luck against him when the WTF was in Shanghai. He managed to beat him there!



Yes, but I recall it was very windy at 2009 Indian Wells! Obviously Nadal had an unfair advantage!


And that's my point. Murray hung in there and was mentally strong at each of the matches he played, no matter how tough and some of them were very tough. His determination amd mental strength saw him through right to the bitter end when he turned around a Djokovic fight back in the final. But since then, it has been a litany of match-point failures and surrendered leads. What happened to that amazing mental toughness and discipline that got him through the USO?



He's always been very up and down. I had hoped winning that elusive first Slam would have kept him up for just a little while longer. Just hope he rediscovers it in time for the start of the new season.



Again, fair point. But EIGHT match points? When did you last see Djokovic or Nadal or Federer squander that many match points?

Well those 3 matches where he had match points are a bit worrying, but he's had other worrying losses too. I'd say the Djokovic one even though it was a final, was not so bad because he didn't do much wrong. Overall I think he's just been better in 5 set matches this year funny enough.

I don't know if there's any huge significance in Murray beating Federer in Shanghai in 2008 and losing 3/3 in london. Remember that Federer is insanely hard to beat at the WTF so Murray has done well to do it once, which happened to be in Shanghai. He's got years left to win this and/or beat federer, but I appreciate it's frustrating. He did win the Olypic gold medal in front of a wimbledon crowd though, so that counts for a lot right?

Well are you gonna balme wind for the IW match or not? I was just using it as an example of a very one sided match where the previous match had featured Murray giving Nadal a bagel - totally different turnouts.

True Murray was strong in the US Open, but it's hard to do that day in and day out. I would say give him time to come to terms with what he's done. It's a big step forwards and sometimes you need a break before taking the next step.

I remember Federer blowing several matches after having match points in 2010 I think, including that US Open semi. At least Murray hasn't done it since Shanghai, so I don't think it will be a major problem. Probably just mental tiredness at the end of the season.

[Goosehead]

murray peaked 3 times in one year..

wimbledon final..despite losing he played some of his best tennis in first 2 sets and 1st uk player in wimby final since 1938, olympic final, and u s open final..

so physically and also mentally thats stuff he hadnt done before..ok so he hasnt won anything since but its no big deal, a 'post party comedown' is what it is..

he needs the close season more than the rest, thats the reality.

[kaku]

IMO all he needs is a full off season with Lendl and some time off. It might not have been the longest season, but he went from a bridesmaid at any event above the 1000 level to a Olympic Gold Medalist and the USO champion, not to mention finishing at a career high ranking. It's a lot of first time things to achieve in one year. I'm sure that he'll have a good 2013 and hopefully he'll win another major too. You should be careful with these negative thoughts Mainad, you might turn into Clarky

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Towser83

I don't know if there's any huge significance in Murray beating Federer in Shanghai in 2008 and losing 3/3 in london. Remember that Federer is insanely hard to beat at the WTF

Delpo managed it!

Originally Posted by Towser83

so Murray has done well to do it once, which happened to be in Shanghai. He's got years left to win this and/or beat federer, but I appreciate it's frustrating.

Actually, Murray had a rather cheeky, devil-may-care attitude towards Federer at that time. Since losing to him at the USO that year, he'd gone on a bit of a roll against him and beat him 4 times on the trot. At Shanghai, he had qualified for the semis but was determined to stop Federer from doing likewise. He actually said before their match, "I'm going to beat him!" and he did so although it took him 3 long and exhausting sets to do it. Afterwards, he had nothing left for the semi and got beaten. But he never regretted playing lights out to beat Federer. If only he could have rediscovered some of that youthful cockiness and confidence when he played against him last night!

Originally Posted by Towser83

He did win the Olypic gold medal in front of a wimbledon crowd though, so that counts for a lot right?

Oh yes. Murray has nothing to be ashamed of at all this year!

Originally Posted by Towser83

Well I are you gonna balme wind for the IW match or not? I was just using it as an example of a very one sided match where the previous match had featured Murray giving Nadal a bagel - totally different turnouts.

Lol... I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony of Murray and others blaming the windy conditions at 2009 IW as contributing to his loss when everyone is now saying how much the wind favoured him at 2012 USO!

Evidently, Murray doesn't think the wind helps him at all. But everyone else seems to think it does!

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Towser83

I remember Federer blowing several matches after having match points in 2010 I think, including that US Open semi. At least Murray hasn't done it since Shanghai,

He has.He blew one in Paris too!

Originally Posted by Towser83

Probably just mental tiredness at the end of the season.

Hope you're right!

[tennisaddict]

This guy won 1 major and 1 olympiv gold , that too defeating Novak in both and Fed once. Something he never managed all of his life.


Now that doesnt put him in the level of other 3, that he is expected to win like how the top 3 does. After all , he still made wtf semis and Shanghai finals, which is quite Credible.

Murray fans hype and make it look like losing to Fed is a disaster.

For someone who loses to Chardy , Young, Bogmolov and Janowicz, losing to Fed should be no shame.

[Towser83]

Originally Posted by Mainad

Delpo managed it!



Actually, Murray had a rather cheeky, devil-may-care attitude towards Federer at that time. Since losing to him at the USO that year, he'd gone on a bit of a roll against him and beat him 4 times on the trot. At Shanghai, he had qualified for the semis but was determined to stop Federer from doing likewise. He actually said before their match, "I'm going to beat him!" and he did so although it took him 3 long and exhausting sets to do it. Afterwards, he had nothing left for the semi and got beaten. But he never regretted playing lights out to beat Federer. If only he could have rediscovered some of that youthful cockiness and confidence when he played against him last night!



Oh yes. Murray has nothing to be ashamed of at all this year!



Lol... I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony of Murray and others blaming the windy conditions at 2009 IW as contributing to his loss when everyone is now saying how much the wind favoured him at 2012 USO!

Evidently, Murray doesn't think the wind helps him at all. But everyone else seems to think it does!

Delpo did beat him but would you swap a 10-9 h2h for 4-13 and a london win? you know I think Murray could do it, but Federer is still a big favourite over everyone indoors. Occasionally he is going to lose, it's just a matter of both player's form on the day. Maybe also Roger kind of likes playing vs Murray with a British crowd - he's well used to playing Americans in America so maybe it actually helps give him motivation.

About the wind, I do think some players get effected more than others but basically there's no point talking about it, you deal with the conditions on court.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by kaku

IMO all he needs is a full off season with Lendl and some time off. It might not have been the longest season, but he went from a bridesmaid at any event above the 1000 level to a Olympic Gold Medalist and the USO champion, not to mention finishing at a career high ranking. It's a lot of first time things to achieve in one year. I'm sure that he'll have a good 2013 and hopefully he'll win another major too.

You're probably right.

Originally Posted by kaku

You should be careful with these negative thoughts Mainad, you might turn into Clarky

Steady on now. First off, I'm a bloke and secondly you will never ever catch me calling him 'Cvac'!

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by tennisaddict

This guy won 1 major and 1 olympiv gold , that too defeating Novak in both and Fed once. Something he never managed all of his life.

Now that doesnt put him in the level of other 3, that he is expected to win like how the top 3 does. After all , he still made wtf semis and Shanghai finals, which is quite Credible.

Murray fans hype and make it look like losing to Fed is a disaster.

I just think it's the WAY he lost to Fed, going down so tamely in the 2nd set after having chances to win the 1st.

Originally Posted by tennisaddict

For someone who loses to Chardy , Young, Bogmolov and Janowicz, losing to Fed should be no shame.

Lol...well I guess I can't argue with that!

[tennisaddict]

Originally Posted by Mainad

I just think it's the WAY he lost to Fed, going down so tamely in the 2nd set after having chances to win the 1st.



Lol...well I guess I can't argue with that!

On the day of loss, we always look at it that way as die hard fans. The top players hardly play bad. When the opponent raises the level, they make mistakes and it appears they play bad. Today Murray made more errors than usual, but it was not a question of nerves or anything. Just a bad day and Fed stopped making so many shanks. He will have a good chance at Wimbledon next year.

[tudwell]

Murray's always been inconsistent. He has some great patches and some not-so-great patches. It's no surprise he's having a bit of a let-down after winning his first slam. It's nothing compared to his slumps after the 2010 and 2011 Australian Open final losses.

I'd say it's likely that he's mentally fatigued after reaching his two greatest achievements (slam title and Olympic gold) in a single year. And now he has more expectation to win, which can sometimes make it harder. Or after winning those big events he's struggling to find motivation for events like Tokyo. There's any number of reasons, but none of them are surprising.