Video hitting some serves - critique wanted - Page 9

ohplease · 12-30-2012, 05:31 PM

Someone else already mentioned leading with the elbow. There's a reason that's important. You can approximate decent biomechanics by focusing on accelerating the hand - which is clearly what you're doing. Looking at your vids, you're kind of sweeping an arc through the air via hips/shoulder/hand.

In contrast, pro level serves are using ground reaction forces to build tension and stretch across their abs, chest, and inner arms, then releasing all that stretch into the ball. Try to approximate a service motion with a 5-10 pound kettlebell or medicine ball and you should notice very different muscle groups in play vs. what you're currently using in your serve.

If I were you, I'd boil it down to getting your balance in order, so that you can use the ground reaction force to really get some juice into your motion so that you can leave your elbow hanging back there before really whipping it through the serve. Same thing with pitching a baseball and the forehand - the longer you wait before releasing the hand, the more its got to cover to catch up. That means faster racket speed and a bigger serve. Leading with the elbow guarantees that you're building that lag into the motion.

toly · 12-30-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

I watched again and used the pause/right arrow to go thru slow and I think I see the root of the problem. Everything looks pretty good up until the trophy pose, but as I start to go up after the ball, for some reason I lay back my wrist and the racquet goes from facing the back fence to facing upwards. It's this initial move that must be fixed. Anyone else agree?

watch this
http://youtu.be/XrRK9UVolBQ

There is real disaster water’s tray error from http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php.

Figure 1. Very bad waiter’s tray
You don’t do anything like that.

During the transition from the trophy pose to racquet drop a lot of pros bring the racquet to waiter’s tray position.

Figure 2. Federer and Safin very good water’s tray

I think you do something like Federer & Safin do.

After that pros bring racquet into racquet drop position.

Pay attention on position and orientation of the racquet face.

The racquet face parallel to the right side of the body in the racquet drop is a hallmark of professional serves.

In order to provide the most efficient ISR you have to:
1. Apply External Shoulder Rotation as much as possible.
2. Use proper amount of forearm supination to bring the racquet face to the right side of the body.

Power Player · 12-31-2012, 05:24 AM

Jack, as pointed out - your racquet is facing in the wrong direction in the trophy pose.

JackB1 · 12-31-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player

Jack, as pointed out - your racquet is facing in the wrong direction in the trophy pose.

Yes I see that now. I will work on just getting to the trophy pose in proper position. See you guys think I should work with a teaching pro to read construct my serve? I just don't want to spend lots of money on countless lessons

EDK · 12-31-2012, 06:03 PM

Your serve looks like the playtester Chris Edwards's (trophy and hitch), with less coil and explosion.

WildVolley · 12-31-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

Yes I see that now. I will work on just getting to the trophy pose in proper position. See you guys think I should work with a teaching pro to read construct my serve? I just don't want to spend lots of money on countless lessons

I think you can rework your serve just using video, and some classic drills.

You have an offset trophy pose, sort of like Roddick's, except you aren't getting your elbow quite as high or the shoulder drawn back as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o

However, I think the biggest problem you have is that you aren't letting the racket drop. Your hitting arm is too straight and too tense when you should be allowing the hand and racket to lag the elbow more.

Assuming you have a healthy shoulder, you should do drills to relax the arm during the racket drop and allow the hand to lag the elbow. Getting more elbow bend is going to help you do this. One of the classic drills for this is the tennis ball in the long sock drill, which is sort of a timing drill, but the motion should be fluid and allow the ball to drop with the hand as the elbow starts driving up. I'd also advise going to a field and throwing an old tennis racket high into the air on edge like a tomahawk. Again, make sure that you're getting the natural drop.

At the moment you're forcing the hand and racket up as a unit, but you'll find more effortless power if you can let the hand relax and the racket lag the elbow into the shot. Good luck and keep using the video to see if your form is changing.

JackB1 · 01-01-2013, 09:49 AM

^^^

thanks for that WV. I am currently working on relaxing the arm and wrist and leading more with the elbow....trying to get a deeper racquet drop.

I have gone back to an abbreviated takeback motion and it makes it easier to get into a proper trophy pose. Less moving parts to time properly and I can easier get the racquet pointing the right way at trophy pose.

note: The racquet face should point to the right side fence at the top of the trophy pose, correct? Or perpendicular to the baseline, is another way to say it.

JackB1 · 01-02-2013, 01:44 PM

Here is a still frame of my trophy pose taken from the last video i uploaded. Please tell me what should be fixed? Thanks.

Avles · 01-02-2013, 03:20 PM

A big thank you to those who said "lead with the elbow" in this thread--I tried to focus on this idea the last time I practiced my serve, and it felt like I got a looser, livelier arm, a better racquet drop, and more acceleration as a result.

psv255 · 01-02-2013, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

Here is a still frame of my trophy pose taken from the last video i uploaded. Please tell me what should be fixed? Thanks.

Couple of things I see off the bat:

Upper arm (shoulder to elbow) is too close to body. Ideally, your shoulders and upper right arm should all make a line.
Lower arm is nearly parallel to ground (i.e. hand is too low)
Show even more of your back to your opponent!

JackB1 · 01-02-2013, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player

Jack, as pointed out - your racquet is facing in the wrong direction in the trophy pose.

please look at the pic I just posted and tell me what is wrong about the "direction"??

JackB1 · 01-02-2013, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psv255

Couple of things I see off the bat:

Upper arm (shoulder to elbow) is too close to body. Ideally, your shoulders and upper right arm should all make a line.
Lower arm is nearly parallel to ground (i.e. hand is too low)
Show even more of your back to your opponent!

OK, so get the elbow up higher and away from the body.
Turn shoulder back more.

thanks....I will work on that

UCSF2012 · 01-02-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

Here is a still frame of my trophy pose taken from the last video i uploaded. Please tell me what should be fixed? Thanks.

Now, that looks like a pro stance. Unfortunately, it looks like Sharapova's. But hey, pro's pro.

Raul_SJ · 01-03-2013, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

Definition: The Target Plane is the plane that includes the tennis ball at contact and the imaginary target inside of the deuce or ad tennis court. This plane should be parallel to the perpendicular to the racquet string bed during the impact.

Don't quite follow. 3 points define a plane.

Where is the third point of the "Target Plane"?

Point 1 Contact Point

Point 2 Target Point on the opposite court.

Point 3 ???

luvforty · 01-03-2013, 03:15 PM

I am assuming the plane is vertical, perpendicular to the ground.

Power Player · 01-03-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

please look at the pic I just posted and tell me what is wrong about the "direction"??

Its fine there, but in a still you dont get answers. Just make sure you are swinging up on edge from that position.

I am watching the Mac/Martin match from the legends series. Martin currently has a great serve you could emulate. See if you can find it on youtube.

JackB1 · 01-03-2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player

Its fine there, but in a still you dont get answers. Just make sure you are swinging up on edge from that position.

I am watching the Mac/Martin match from the legends series. Martin currently has a great serve you could emulate. See if you can find it on youtube.

I found some pretty good footage of Martin's serve

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/m...serve_open.PHP

I like how simple it looks. I'll give it a try. He gets the racquet and elbow back and up right away before he tosses. Never did that before...I'll give it a shot.

ohplease · 01-03-2013, 06:39 PM

The take back really doesn't matter. This is what matters:

Martin's forearms on both his racket and non-racket arms are just along for the ride. Another thing to pay attention to is his racket hand relative to the background. It literally does not change height relative to the stair step/woman's head in the background. Sure, the rest of his body is dragging that hand forward and ultimately up and through the ball, but that hand doesn't change height across the entire width of the stairs and through most of his motion. The still above is the last moment before his hand leaves that same height.

Chas Tennis · 01-03-2013, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

I found some pretty good footage of Martin's serve

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/m...serve_open.PHP

That link did not work for me.

[BTW - If you cut and paste a link from a TW reply it will not work because it has been abbreviated. Click on the TW link and bring up the website again and then recopy the address.]

psv255 · 01-04-2013, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

That link did not work for me.

it's the ".PHP" part. lowercase it and it'll work, had the same thing happen to me!

12-30-2012, 05:31 PM	#161
ohplease Professional Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,150	Someone else already mentioned leading with the elbow. There's a reason that's important. You can approximate decent biomechanics by focusing on accelerating the hand - which is clearly what you're doing. Looking at your vids, you're kind of sweeping an arc through the air via hips/shoulder/hand. In contrast, pro level serves are using ground reaction forces to build tension and stretch across their abs, chest, and inner arms, then releasing all that stretch into the ball. Try to approximate a service motion with a 5-10 pound kettlebell or medicine ball and you should notice very different muscle groups in play vs. what you're currently using in your serve. If I were you, I'd boil it down to getting your balance in order, so that you can use the ground reaction force to really get some juice into your motion so that you can leave your elbow hanging back there before really whipping it through the serve. Same thing with pitching a baseball and the forehand - the longer you wait before releasing the hand, the more its got to cover to catch up. That means faster racket speed and a bigger serve. Leading with the elbow guarantees that you're building that lag into the motion. __________________ Nobody paid for the opinions I express.

12-31-2012, 05:24 AM	#163
Power Player G.O.A.T. Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: On my iPhone Posts: 13,548	Jack, as pointed out - your racquet is facing in the wrong direction in the trophy pose. __________________ 🐐ing

01-01-2013, 09:49 AM	#167
JackB1 Legend Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 8,299	^^^ thanks for that WV. I am currently working on relaxing the arm and wrist and leading more with the elbow....trying to get a deeper racquet drop. I have gone back to an abbreviated takeback motion and it makes it easier to get into a proper trophy pose. Less moving parts to time properly and I can easier get the racquet pointing the right way at trophy pose. note: The racquet face should point to the right side fence at the top of the trophy pose, correct? Or perpendicular to the baseline, is another way to say it. __________________ Wilson Black Blade 104 - NXT Tour / Copoly at 55/51 Last edited by JackB1 : 01-01-2013 at 10:03 AM.

01-02-2013, 01:44 PM	#168
JackB1 Legend Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 8,299	Here is a still frame of my trophy pose taken from the last video i uploaded. Please tell me what should be fixed? Thanks. __________________ Wilson Black Blade 104 - NXT Tour / Copoly at 55/51

01-03-2013, 06:39 PM	#178
ohplease Professional Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,150	The take back really doesn't matter. This is what matters: Martin's forearms on both his racket and non-racket arms are just along for the ride. Another thing to pay attention to is his racket hand relative to the background. It literally does not change height relative to the stair step/woman's head in the background. Sure, the rest of his body is dragging that hand forward and ultimately up and through the ball, but that hand doesn't change height across the entire width of the stairs and through most of his motion. The still above is the last moment before his hand leaves that same height. __________________ Nobody paid for the opinions I express.