Does Modern Tennis Exist?

[JohnYandell]

luv,

Sorry about the weather...you have to go to the mountains out here to get that temp... (but for snowshoeing not tennis...)

[JohnYandell]

To All:

Well we may never hear from the yank author, but here is the promised Federer inside out clip.

Your thoughts on what this shows about the issues under discussion please.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Suresh,

You are a master of the threads. Do you recall where the yank was introduced?

I don't recall that any more

Was trailing 0-3 in the first set this evening, but then the rain started and I was saved.

[JohnYandell]

Suresh:

0-3 is a great opportunity for optimism...


Anyone Else:

Where is that first yank quote if you can recall??

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

To All:

Well we may never hear from the yank author, but here is the promised Federer inside out clip.

Your thoughts on what this shows about the issues under discussion please.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7SVLDZeX8

the bent fh like Davy's may give a 'yank' impression on TV, but slow mo shows the arm structure is unchanged.

like I was saying, in a bent fh, the arm muscle has to work, but to merely maintain the structure.

[sureshs]

I tracked it down. Just search in the other thread.

It was actually used by another poster first (where he got it from I don't know) and then Oscar continued its usage.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Suresh:

0-3 is a great opportunity for optimism...

The guy was quite serious. He is going to start coaching his daughter, and is trying to play with as many people as possible to expand his skills. He said his regular partner just pushed everything back, and he really likes that I have different strokes to offer to him.

Also, it wasn't 0-3 actually. It was 0-2 and 15-all in the 3rd game when we had to abandon the match.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7SVLDZeX8

the bent fh like Davy's may give a 'yank' impression on TV, but slow mo shows the arm structure is unchanged.

like I was saying, in a bent fh, the arm muscle has to work, but to merely maintain the structure.

not quite and not everybody. depending on your swing mechanics you can swing w/o using arm muscle contraction to maintain the structure. Also a lot of players let the elbow extend during the swing (not to the point of a straight arm). And also depending on swing type you can also maintain the structure using the shoulder muscles only.

Nobody thinks about 'using muscles to maintain the structure' anyway. If they do they are arming the ball and have low rhs.

[JohnYandell]

OK here is what I got from the other thread--thank you suresh:

Wegner wrote:

when you yank the ball to get more power, the racquet first encounters the resistance of the impact with the ball, that is why you see a loss of speed at that moment. But because you are forcing the action with acceleration… the racquet speeds up incredibly and of course you don't intend for the racquet to hit your shoulder or you arm, so you stop it or at least you cease contracting. That is why you see a top player having more than 50 MPH on the racquet head across the body and to his left.

When you pull from the racquet rather than extending, the contraction of biceps and pectorals connects the body weight to the impact. That, together with the acceleration makes for more ball speed. If you extend, you disconnect, and you actually loose power.

Please compare to this Federer clip and see if you see any yanking going on:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Nobody thinks about 'using muscles to maintain the structure' anyway. If they do they are arming the ball and have low rhs.

how can a bent arm stay bent if the muscle doesn't contract?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

how can a bent arm stay bent if the muscle doesn't contract?

it depends on how you rotate and swing and your hitting structure. the more important part is keeping your elbow at roughly the same distance from the torso if you have one of those relatively locked bent arm swings. If you have a swing where you lead with the elbow then usually from the elbow to the hand is kept loose and depending on your setup position at the end of takeback etc etc the elbow extension that occurs during the swing will do be pretty much 'pre-determined' and if you have your racquet weight configured to your swing then the lag in the head will pull back on a leading elbow fh which... nvm hard to explain.

in any case there are many types of swings. you can lock you hitting structure with muscle contraction of course but nobody is 'taught' this. At most people are taught early on to 'maintain the bend' where they will consciously use contraction.

Then there is the phenomenon where, as an example, players who play with an extremely loose grip, like i do, tighten the grip at contact automatically w/o thought. There's a reason that happens subconsciously but i forgot the name of the neural process that causes that happen (in regards to the grip tightening on it's own).

[5263]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

5263:
So either you don't want to share or you don't know or you don't dare to ask the leader what the yank truly is.

Or maybe it would be the truth, which is that one particular word that you find
so fascinating, is about as interesting to me as the other clutter you try to
make something out of. Not sure who your talking about as your leader, but
maybe you should ask him since this is so important to You?
I guess if you lose on the big important issues like the outdated unit turn,
stepping in a linear fashion putting weight into the shot, &
hitting across the target line, you have to go after minor points like counting
drills or a word you don't like.
For me these minor issues don't make much of a difference which way they
fall in the end.

[JohnYandell]

5263:

Sorry to have failed you as your former leader. Maybe you should have paid closer attention though and that wouldn't have happened.

[5263]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

5263:

Sorry to have failed you as your former leader. Maybe you should have paid closer attention though and that wouldn't have happened.

No, just saw too much instruction from you and your site that did not match
well at all with all the excellent vid on the site.
I should have stayed with the tennisone site after all, but you learn and
make adjustments.

[JohnYandell]

5263:

You can always go back. They will welcome you with open arms. BTW whose login you were using to read the Tplayer articles? You never cleared that up for me.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

To All:

Well we may never hear from the yank author, but here is the promised Federer inside out clip.

Your thoughts on what this shows about the issues under discussion please.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html

great clip. what caught my attention is that Federer does a complete shoulder turn while hitting an open stance fh. i think if you want to play like the pros, that would be a good habit to emulate

[TomT]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

To All:

Well we may never hear from the yank author, but here is the promised Federer inside out clip.

Your thoughts on what this shows about the issues under discussion please.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html

Wow, what a beautiful stroke. Thanks for posting JY.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

nvm hard to explain.

tighten the grip at contact

the subconscious mind is a lot smarter than all the wisdom explained in words in this thread... whenever the conscious mind try to explain the subconscious, it seems always fall short.

that's why mr. wegner's teaching method may have some merit..... but any attempt to apply universally is ridiculous.

the brain knows what muscle to contract, based on a player's intent to hit a bent or straight FH, as well as applying compression to the ball (therefore no matter how loose you start, the grip has to tighten at impact).

yanking may work for some, but may not for others... that's the bottom line.

the assumption that yanking is universally true, or universally false, and the debates with either premise, are all equally ridiculous.

[5263]

Originally Posted by treblings

great clip. what caught my attention is that Federer does a complete shoulder turn while hitting an open stance fh. i think if you want to play like the pros, that would be a good habit to emulate

Yep, an amazing clip that clearly shows quite a few important items.
You can see how close Fed brings his hand to the ball dragging the racket.

At that point you can see how his hand is right there at the T in Cincinnati &
as he pulls strongly across, his hand moves all the way well past the "i" in
Cincinnati for contact. You can even see how the ball TS is not right over the
top, but has a side aspect to the spin due to the up and across the ball
contact.

Imo what is easy to miss in slow mo like this, is how fast the hand is moving
across at this point. One indication is how little the ball travels during this
time. Even though the ball is moving quickly, it seems almost to sit still,
even more obvious in the vid before with more of a side view.

[tennis_balla]

Originally Posted by luvforty

the subconscious mind is a lot smarter than all the wisdom explained in words in this thread... whenever the conscious mind try to explain the subconscious, it seems always fall short.

that's why mr. wegner's teaching method may have some merit..... but any attempt to apply universally is ridiculous.

the brain knows what muscle to contract, based on a player's intent to hit a bent or straight FH, as well as applying compression to the ball (therefore no matter how loose you start, the grip has to tighten at impact).

yanking may work for some, but may not for others... that's the bottom line.

the assumption that yanking is universally true, or universally false, and the debates with either premise, are all equally ridiculous.

The brain only knows this if taught properly. Some may learn this on their own, some may not. Most cases its taught by a coach. How you teach it, the methods use, well I guess is what we are debating.