Does Modern Tennis Exist?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Mulach

Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that. I'm generally satisfied with the top spin I get when I don't miss. The camera angle is from top of fence so you don't see the full on trajectory.

Regarding your beware comment, do you have full disclosure?

Just saying that rotation vs extension is one of the many factors. It is a topic of huge debate here, so I don't want somebody getting advice which is just about proving a point or something. It may be the reason, it may not be. But don't get brainwashed.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Mulach

Not really trying to prove anything. He was suggesting i focus more on preparation where I wanted to focus on the finish across and weight transfer.

I remember that high long ball. You think it was more of extension vs. rotation that caused it? That is probably likely. I've only recently shifted focus away from extension to across and rotation. Need to keep cleaning that up.

my best advice to you is listen to and work with your coach who knows you.
don´t expect to much from unknown posters in an internet forum

[JohnYandell]

mulach,

It looks pretty good! You are a little late and incomplete on the left arm stretch.

If you want to understand extension and rotation drop you hand at your side. Now raise it and point directly in front of you with your palm on edge and your arm parallel to the ground.

That lifting action is from the shoulder and key in the forehand. Note your hand is now extended an arm's length in front of you.

Now rotate the palm that is on edge in front of you to your left 180 degrees.That rotation is generated from the shoulder as well--in this case the rotation of the upper arm (and the rest of the arm attached to it) from the shoulder joint.

In addition of course, the arm is also swinging on an arc--again from the shoulder on an inside out and then outside in curve from the start of the forward swing to the point of greatest outward reach.

Those are the factors at play I am talking about.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

mulach,

It looks pretty good! You are a little late and incomplete on the left arm stretch.

If you want to understand extension and rotation drop you hand at your side. Now raise it and point directly in front of you with your palm on edge and your arm parallel to the ground.

That lifting action is from the shoulder and key in the forehand. Note your hand is now extended an arm's length in front of you.

Now rotate the palm that is on edge in front of you to your left 180 degrees.That rotation is generated from the shoulder as well--in this case the rotation of the upper arm (and the rest of the arm attached to it) from the shoulder joint.

In addition of course, the arm is also swinging on an arc--again from the shoulder on an inside out and then outside in curve from the start of the forward swing to the point of greatest outward reach.

Those are the factors at play I am talking about.

Its actually a good description of the shoulder movement in the fh. But is this what's needed to teach a fh? Seems way complicated for teaching more an academic description. I've watched a lot of fh instructions from all the top coaches and nobody talks like that.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Mulach

Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that.

This is part of what the group harping on extension don't get. Yes, Open face
is a real common problem for those working on and focused on extension.
Every degree of racket face error is transmitted directly into the shot, making the
requirements for high precision to avoid the open face issue.

Notice on the shots where you pulled across more or better, that open face problem
didn't pop up; which is very normal. There are a couple things I believe factor
into this. One is when working across the ball, not quite the same precision
required and I think the one of the others is related to the ISR of working across
helps you to not let the face get too open anyway.

They will likely say this isn't true, but as you work with it, you will likely notice
the effects mentioned here.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

This is part of what the group harping on extension don't get. Yes, Open face
is a real common problem for those working on and focused on extension.
Every degree of racket face error is transmitted directly into the shot, making the
requirements for high precision to avoid the open face issue.

Notice on the shots where you pulled across more or better, that open face problem
didn't pop up; which is very normal. There are a couple things I believe factor
into this. One is when working across the ball, not quite the same precision
required and I think the one of the others is related to the ISR of working across
helps you to not let the face get too open anyway.

They will likely say this isn't true, but as you work with it, you will likely notice
the effects mentioned here.

OK... I just went in my tennis court in the cold and hit a bucket against the machine for 15min. Still some snow in the corners.... There is something to the isr. Exaggerated it a bit more than usual and it really controls the racket face. Keeps it closed. Add the yank and I'm bombing the fh... Lol'.

[JohnYandell]

Arche,

Thanks for the good words re: the explanation but read my other post--mulach wants to understand the biomechanics which is great and fascinating and can help a certain type of player...BUT

What I said was the key was to master certain positions subverbally--ie, kinesthetically and visually. You can do that with or without the understanding.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Arche,

Thanks for the good words re: the explanation but read my other post--mulach wants to understand the biomechanics which is great and fascinating and can help a certain type of player...BUT

What I said was the key was to master certain positions subverbally--ie, kinesthetically and visually. You can do that with or without the understanding.

Well I never realised I did this. The isr. I'm going to go ape crazy and see what happens if I exaggerate it all over my fh. I'll report back after I actually play someone. I knew I did it on my serve.

[JohnYandell]

isr?? means what?

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

isr?? means what?

Internal shoulder rotation i'm guessing.

[JohnYandell]

yep if so it can be huge... but I call it hand and arm rotation because it's the entire hitting arm structure and racket...

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

yep if so it can be huge... but I call it hand and arm rotation because it's the entire hitting arm structure and racket...

Yeah i thought isr was your term for it. So I used it. I think you should work the shoulder wording into your coaching. It enforces the whole shoulder arm racket to move as a unit concept as opposed the term forearm pronation which some might do just from the elbow. Kinda like a misunderstood wiper fh. I've seen a lot of those in rec videos.

[JohnYandell]

Arche,

What makes you think I haven't done that? Kidding but there are many articles related to this on Tennisplayer--and examples of transformation for club players using it... I just prefer translate to technical biomechanical terms into English when possible.

but to be technical, there is no significant forearm pronation in either the forehand or the serve. The forearm rotates as part of that larger structural rotation.

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

.. There is something to the isr. Exaggerated it a bit more than usual and it really controls the racket face. .

Good, glad you liked that!

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by treblings

my best advice to you is listen to and work with your coach who knows you.
don´t expect to much from unknown posters in an internet forum

The coaches here are not unknown - they are some of the best in the business. You can save a lot of money by just reading the stuff here.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Arche,

What makes you think I haven't done that? Kidding but there are many articles related to this on Tennisplayer--and examples of transformation for club players using it... I just prefer translate to technical biomechanical terms into English when possible.

but to be technical, there is no significant forearm pronation in either the forehand or the serve. The forearm rotates as part of that larger structural rotation.

Its just interesting that I've been doing things without a term for it. Its kinda obvious your forearm can't turn without the shoulders doing it as well. I wonder why all the coaches say forearm pronation?

As an aside I when I was playing as a kid in was taught visually and by feel. Not technical at all. Just a lot of practice.

[JohnYandell]

Arche,

Because the human eye only sees at 20 frames a second and can't in most cases tell very much about the disputed issues in teaching.

Ironically coaches may have themselves learned thru image and feel. Now they have to say something...and the better the player the more likely this is a problem...

So they grasp on to buzzwords and explanations that don't necessarily correspond to what they do or the pros do.

When I started teaching I would actually tape pro matches on vhs and then use the replays to make video print sequences to try to figure out what the hell was actually happening.

30 years later we know a lot lot more through the pursuit of high speed filming.
But the issue is two fold: first what actually happens, and second how to make it happen.

This is one of the biggest problems the modern teaching guys here face--they haven't done the close study and so their descriptions are not accurate and over simplified.

It's possible you could give advice based on inaccurate descriptions and still have it work--but how would you know? Sure Federer probably doesn't need a lot of video input. But I have filmed world class players who developed technical problems and were shocked by what they saw.

It's fundamental I think to do basic research, study it, and develop methodologies based on reality. But the final step is helping players see it and feel it for themselves.

[5263]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

This is one of the biggest problems the modern teaching guys here face--they haven't done the close study

Actually we modern teaching guys don't face any big problems. We have helped
quite a few on this site and our students rave about the instruction, asking
why everyone doesn't teach this way. That is the normal experience for many
modern instructors.
Just as it was a modern guy here who shared with Archie
how working across the target line with isr would help to avoid balls flying on
him like happens with the hit thru 5 balls extension guys. Now the extension guys
don't have a big problem either, because the flaws in their approach keep
you coming back for more lessons and video memberships, to help solve the
obsolesce designed into their approach.
So really, I guess everyone is happy

[JohnYandell]

5263:

Yes you have developed a perfect system. So long as reality is not required to validate it's many wonders. Amazing!

[luvforty]

isr - isn't this just a way to avoid flipping.. in other words, the racket face still looking at the same angle as before the impact.

also - why is there nobody talking about the external shoulder rotation on the 1hbh.... or is there?