Does Modern Tennis Exist?

[JohnYandell]

Luv,

It does exist...I do plan on doing some backhand threads

[JohnYandell]

5263:

Can u point to where wegner talks about internal rotation. Is that in the same section as the yank

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

5263:

Can u point to where wegner talks about internal rotation. Is that in the same section as the yank

I have a pretty neat observation I found today related to this. As I was messing with the yank idea and then internal shoulder rotation idea I noticed a peculiar thing. I ended up at the same place.

If I used my biceps actively ala the wegner yank in order to not hit my face with my racket the shoulder rotated and the finish was across.

When I was trying to exaggerate the ISR ala yandel I ended up with just about the same stroke.

Odd right. Of course there are a million variations of the stroke and finish but the basic "shape" was very similar.

[user92626]

I'm sorry, but what is "internal shoulder rotation"? What is it like, analogy?

I don't mean to take side, but yanking across the body as a concept, analogy does work! For me at least.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by user92626

I'm sorry, but what is "internal shoulder rotation"? What is it like, analogy?

I don't mean to take side, but yanking across the body as a concept, analogy does work! For me at least.

As your swing goes out of the slot position as it approaches the ball and contact the shoulder rotates forward and the forearm pronates and across. It rotates just how it sounds.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by arche3

As your swing goes out of the slot position as it approaches the ball and contact the shoulder rotates forward and the forearm pronates and across. It rotates just how it sounds.

not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

[5263]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

5263:

Yes you have developed a perfect system. So long as reality is not required to validate it's many wonders. Amazing!

How much info can you get wrong? Is there no end to it?
Did I claim to have developed any system?

Jy has shown several vids where he acts as though you should see something
related to the accel of the racket just prior to contact.
Just to demo how misleading this approach to it is imo, Ck out this vid of a
stretched GXR, and how smoothly the front wheel comes up at normal speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...JVEtGrpk#t=14s

Now imagine how smooth this transition will look in super slow mo.
Do you have any idea how much more force or torque is require to lift the front
wheel at speed and at fractions of a second?
Now imagine how much more force is required to lift that Wheelie
on a bike that is stretched to help stop the wheel from lifting.

All that enormous force is applied in fractions of a second...way more than
any tennis player can generate with a racket swing.....

And all done just as smooth as can be with no evidence except the smooth
lift of the front wheel.
Now why would you expect to see any more visual cue from the effort to
accel the racket into contact?

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

If I used my biceps actively ala the wegner yank in order to not hit my face with my racket the shoulder rotated and the finish was across.

When I was trying to exaggerate the ISR ala yandel I ended up with just about the same stroke.

Wait a minute here, lol!

I agree that both ideas can help you to find and feel the stroke, but how did
Jy get any credit here?? I was the one who mentioned that ISR to you in this
thread and Jy was the one asking what is ISR.
Awe, Come on Man!

[arche3]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

That's basically what I said. The shoulder rotates and that makes the rest of the arm rotate. Perhaps I was not clear.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

Wait a minute here, lol!

I agree that both ideas can help you to find and feel the stroke, but how did
Jy get any credit here?? I was the one who mentioned that ISR to you in this
thread and Jy was the one asking what is ISR.
Awe, Come on Man!

Oh. I thought it was jy talking about the isr. Sorry! Thanks.

[luvforty]

I always noticed that Kim Clijsters and Svet KUZNETSOVA has very exaggerated motion like such..... didn't know it was called ISR.

[luvforty]

how many people are shadowing the ISR in their living rooms right now lol.

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

Oh. I thought it was jy talking about the isr. Sorry! Thanks.

I understand,...easy to get us confused...

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by arche3

That's basically what I said. The shoulder rotates and that makes the rest of the arm rotate. Perhaps I was not clear.

I know. Just wanted to make sure the other guy wasn't confused as he or someone else might have started trying to do forearm pronation only.

For some reason isr is more easily noticed when you see a match live. Not sure why that is.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! Is this caveman's hitting?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by user92626

Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! Is this caveman's hitting?

just follow jy's arm outstretched instructions. it's just rotating your shoulder. helps prevent the face from opening too much before contact and helps you close the face if you want w/o weird stiff contortions of your wrist and helps you get a more stable hit because your putting a little force in the opposite direction.

You ever see a slow mo vid where some pro is swinging and the racquet face is slightly closed and through contact it follows a nice continuous angle as if they had wrists of steel and when you try to copy that swing it just doesn't look right or your face opens etc or you can't maintain that swing shape at full speed? Well chances are they are employing a little bit of isr there.

edit: here's an example although is not terribly obvious. See how Djoko's racquet face and hitting structure seems to maintain it's shape at contact and afterwards? He has a loose grip so he's not struggling to make the face follow that path. Just a touch of isr at the right moment keeps everything 'healthy'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=mWOVWARCxbU

u can also see nalby here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJVQ9yKhRYc
nice continuous path of the racquet face.

Also if you ever try shadow swinging w/o a racquet like we all do in the super market or while on the phone you'll notice how your hand always seems to have a perfect swing path at contact and slightly closed and just flows through the contact point. that's probably cuz your using a little bit of isr.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by user92626

Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! Is this caveman's hitting?

Well my first coach as a kid would tell me to finish with a higher elbow at times which accomplished the isr.

[Greg G]

At the transition between backswing and forward swing, along with passive supination of the forearm, is there an element of passive external shoulder rotation prior to the internal rotation?

[user92626]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

just follow jy's arm outstretched instructions. it's just rotating your shoulder. helps prevent the face from opening too much before contact and helps you close the face if you want w/o weird stiff contortions of your wrist and helps you get a more stable hit because your putting a little force in the opposite direction.

You ever see a slow mo vid where some pro is swinging and the racquet face is slightly closed and through contact it follows a nice continuous angle as if they had wrists of steel and when you try to copy that swing it just doesn't look right or your face opens etc or you can't maintain that swing shape at full speed? Well chances are they are employing a little bit of isr there.

edit: here's an example although is not terribly obvious. See how Djoko's racquet face and hitting structure seems to maintain it's shape at contact and afterwards? He has a loose grip so he's not struggling to make the face follow that path. Just a touch of isr at the right moment keeps everything 'healthy'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=mWOVWARCxbU

u can also see nalby here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJVQ9yKhRYc
nice continuous path of the racquet face.

Also if you ever try shadow swinging w/o a racquet like we all do in the super market or while on the phone you'll notice how your hand always seems to have a perfect swing path at contact and slightly closed and just flows through the contact point. that's probably cuz your using a little bit of isr.

Cheetah,

I thought that was the only way possible to hit the ball. Well, actually one of the two ways. The other way being like Sharapova whose racket face moves like an open palm slapping through and through.

Yeah, I get the elbow raise and maintaining the racket face facing forward as much as possible.

Hey that Nalby's hitting style is interesting, isn't it? It goes against the idea of leading/attacking the ball with the racket edge. He opens up the racket face very early and seems like it's very hard for the racket to miss the ball, right?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by user92626

Cheetah,

I thought that was the only way possible to hit the ball. Well, actually one of the two ways. The other way being like Sharapova whose racket face moves like an open palm slapping through and through.

Yeah, I get the elbow raise and maintaining the racket face facing forward as much as possible.

Hey that Nalby's hitting style is interesting, isn't it? It goes against the idea of leading/attacking the ball with the racket edge. He opens up the racket face very early and seems like it's very hard for the racket to miss the ball, right?

Yea the sharapova slap. I guess some ppl do it naturally and some have to learn it.

I know what you mean in that Nalby vid. He's making some nice contact though. That vid reminds me of this Henin video. A little different but similar. She's really striking it well here. I like when she moves back and kicks it up a bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb_yYgT-CL4