How good is McEnroe still?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by Rjtennis

Serena would beat Mac purely based on movement and fitness. I'm also not sure that the seniors tour isn't somewhat rigged. Mac doesn't move that well and some of the younger guys should crush him. I'm still amazed at how well he plays but I dont think he is any better than a 5.5 player. There are a lot of D1 players who would easily handle him.

Comments like the bolded ones are delusional.

[elamarrj]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

All she'd have to do is sit on him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-...-or-offensive/

she could sit on me and i would surrender right away

[pjonesy]

Originally Posted by NLBwell

Thomas Muster came back to play Challengers after getting terribly out of shape and actually won a couple of matches and many of the matches were very competitive. Of course, that is at a level far higher than any woman, including Serena, plays. She probably wouldn't get more than a game or two if the Challenger guy relaxed a lot. Similarly, she would barely get a game from guys like Sampras or Rafter on the old guys tour. McEnroe is 8 years older than Muster and still plays a very high level of tennis, but even watching the tour on TV, I can tell he isn't as good as a few years ago. His game can still be mystifying, even to the former greats though, if he is playing well.
All in all, I'd say he'd still beat any woman pretty easily.

You make some good points. However, Muster is a very different type of player. He is basically a clay court grinder. Muster's game style relies on consistency, heavy topspin strokes, physicality, stamina and intensity. Considering that the 1st thing to diminish in world class athletes is foot speed, that type of player would be in way over his head competing on the current ATP tour. He just couldn't get to every ball and would end up having to go for winners out of position, just to win points. As opposed to outlasting his opponents, which he would prefer.

McEnroe is a serve and volley player with the softest hands at the net in history. On a fast court, his game could give the young guys trouble. They've never seen a game like his. It's amazing to watch. But, the game seemed to pass him by in the late 80s and early 90s. He just did not have the powerful, controlled topspin groundstrokes that were starting to rule the game at that point. Along with losing a step, McEnroe was being pushed back by the heavy, hard groundstrokes and could not get to the net easily. His serve and volley game was still effective. When he hit the serve the way he wanted. Overall, he just had to hit phenomenal shots just to win points. But he may have more power in his game right now, due to training advances and racquet/string technology. He would lose to Serena, but it would be close. McEnroe's skill vs Serena's physical strength. If McEnroe could get to the net and hit low volleys Serena couldn't dig out easily, maybe a chance. Serena does like rhythm and McEnroe could disrupt that. If she is clicking off the ground, she will get stronger and more confident throughout the match.

[BrooklynNY]

McEnroe would not lose to Serena. I think you are seriously underestimating his ground game. His current day backhand is still one of the best shots in tennis.

If he can handle Pete Sampras' serve still, he can handle Serena's.

Again, I think you under estimate how good Mac's groundies are - even today

[WARPWOODIE]

Great skills for a 50 year old but...he still has his temper
You would think that would have faded away.

[Onehandedbackhand]

Been lurking for some time...finally able to get on here after a little difficulty.

I have read some posts on McEnroe, and while most are realistic, there are some that are simply delusional. I don't think any of those people understand the level the man played at, and still plays at. There seems to be two arguments against Mac that I hear.

1. He's too old

2. He doesn't hit with enough pace, so a 5.5 could beat him(or something like that).

Here's something to chew on. I have seen him play in person once...the exo with Sock at the SAP in San Jose. While it was an exo, you can still see the difference between him and a 5.5 or a 6.0. Pace doesn't bother him an ounce, his hands are as soft as anyone you'll ever see, and the angles on his shots cause anyone fits. This isn't just someone acting like a Dustin Brown or Alex Dolgopolov playing seek and destroy with a forehand. It's spin, angle, timing, footwork, court coverage, everything that makes him that much different from a 5.5 or 6.0. My guess is that he could hit at a 3.0s pace and still win 1 and 1. Any harder and it's a double bagel.

[90's Clay]

Dude is crazy good still. Amazing considering his age. Rafter did hand him his but a few weeks ago though

[big ted]

a 7time gs champion and world class athlete doesnt all of a sudden lose his skills by aging a few years. this is a nice practice video of him that shows how flawless and smooth his technique is and it seems he has all the time in the world to react to the ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAlQVeeFLLU

[jokinla]

Originally Posted by Surecatch

I watched him play in the old fellas' tournament on TV last night against Agassi and then Rafter and was pretty impressed at his skill level for being well into his fifties now. I really hadn't seen him play much since his tour days, other than youtube clips but looked like he hit harder than in his youth, which isn't surprising given advances in racquets, etc. He's naturally a little slower but still seems very accurate with his defense, especially considering his opponents also hit harder than back in the day.

What would his USTA level be? Could he compete on the ATP tour still? Would he smoke Serena?

He's still a pro, so off the USTA chart, and yes he could beat Serena, as far as competing on the ATP tour, he could, but not at the higher end, especially with todays game.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by goran_ace

1.) Irrelevant. He would destroy any 5.0 player out there and NTRPs above 5.0 are purely academic.

2.) No way. He might take a match here or there but his body would not hold up for a whole tournament.

3.) No. She'd win the physical battle.

Basically agree. But Mac still plays great tennis. I love to watch him play.

[jokinla]

Originally Posted by WARPWOODIE

Great skills for a 50 year old but...he still has his temper
You would think that would have faded away.

His temper won't leave him, but it's certainly a bit of a gimmick on the seniors tour.

[scrappydoo]

It is really hard to judge the ability of old pros hit until you get on court with them. It's usually quite silly to try and determine someone's ability by who they have beaten, and then subsuquently who that guy has beaten, and so on and so forth.

But that's not going to stop me from trying.

Last year I got the opportunity to hit with Agassi, Chang, Courier and Martin before an event. A lot of it was just messing about, but I hit with Chang for a minute or so and it was completely different to anything I've ever experienced. He was a complete backboard. A machine. His ball was so clean, constant, and deep.

I like to tell myself (an average 5.0 player from the ground) that I held my own. I even "won" a couple points. But deep down I know he was taking it very easy. I feel that if we played a set with serves I could maybe get a few free points off my serve, but they would be few and far between.

I've also hit a few times with TonLars on this board. He is a 5.5+ player who plays In a few satellites. We played seriously once 2 and a half years ago and he cleaned my clock 0-1. The games weren't super close, we maybe went to deuce 4-5 times. I came away feeling that if I wasn't so nervous (50+ people watching) I might have served better and at my very best won a couple more games.

The thing that sticks out looking back at this is that both players (Chang and Larson) is that both were extremely impressive and daughnting to play. The difference between the two was I felt I had a chance to win points and even games against Larson, whereas during my brief hit with Chang I felt as though I had no chance. I was at his mercy, a puppet on a string.

Alright time to attempt to answer the original question. Chang and McEnroe are obviously not the same player, with differences in playing style, age, fitness, and # of grand slams won. They were both at the top of the ATP tour at one point in their careers. I would take a punt and say right now they are of similar ability. Hopefully that gives some insight into how skilled these guys are.

[bluetrain4]

No insult to Serena, but Mac would still beat her IMO. Seriously. It's just apples and oranges. I know Mac is in his mid 50s, but still. I've seen him play in plenty of events as he's got older and I'd have to say that his play and/or fitness has not dropped to a level yet where he couldn't beat Serena.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by NLBwell

He lost in 3 sets 7 times and won 2 times out of 27 matches. So at least 1/3rd of the time, he was very competitive at the Challenger level.
Not bad for an old guy whose game is based on dominating the other player physically.
Of course McEnroe's game translates better to being old.

NLBwell, you are very generous towards Muster. I'm sure Thomas has rated his comeback trail as a big failure...

[slowfox]

Why are these threads often about Mac? Nobody is starting any threads wondering if last year's D1 champ can beat Lendl. Stop picking on Mac ! lol

[Onehandedbackhand]

Here's another way of looking at it.

This was McEnroe in 1995...fat, out of shape, and breathing heavy in the first game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbcfCgytvN8

Now think about McEnroe now. He's in fantastic shape, plays all the time, and hits with more power now than ever.

Think a 5.0 has a chance?

[TonLars]

Just want to give another perspective. This sort of discussion has been on this board several times. Mac is indeed, still at his age, a great player, and amazing for his age. This is because he is one of the all time greats from his younger prime days.

However, in these exhibitions with Sampras and the like, they are taking it easy on him. If you think otherwise you just dont understand the true nature of the exhibitions. Eric Butorac and I were somehow talking about this over a month ago. He also finds it laughable how some people still believe Mac can beat current professional players, even the low ranked.

Originally Posted by scrappydoo

I've also hit a few times with TonLars on this board. He is a 5.5+ player who plays In a few satellites. We played seriously once 2 and a half years ago and he cleaned my clock 0-1. The games weren't super close, we maybe went to deuce 4-5 times. I came away feeling that if I wasn't so nervous (50+ people watching) I might have served better and at my very best won a couple more games.

The thing that sticks out looking back at this is that both players (Chang and Larson) is that both were extremely impressive and daughnting to play. The difference between the two was I felt I had a chance to win points and even games against Larson, whereas during my brief hit with Chang I felt as though I had no chance. I was at his mercy, a puppet on a string.

Haha hey, fun to read your perspective on this! Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully we will play again one day and youll have another shot!

[Onehandedbackhand]

We're not saying he can beat current professional players. The athleticism exhibited today would just be way too much. I do think he'd still win doubles though.

Point being is that he'd blast 5.0-6.0 USTAs without even taking his warmups off.

[big ted]

i think mcenroe would be able to beat low ranked satellite players in a tiebreak or pro-set where longterm fitness/endurance would not be an issue and on a quick court. the senior pros who retired in the 2000s like sampras and rafter may go a little easy on him kind of like how everyone goes easy on borg when they play him, it seems.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by goran_ace

I'm a big McEnroe fan but let's be serious: he didn't look that good against Agassi nor Rafter. I'm taking Serena in a best of 3 match 4 times out of 5.

Serena is a great player, but Mac has kept himself in shape and plays a lot from what I've seen. It's a huge tribute to Serena that she could probably legitimately pick up some games off her serve because it's so good, but no way she beats him. His serve would be very, very difficult for her to break. He's so good at absorbing and redirecting an opponent's pace, and his hands are so friggin' good even now. I just don't think she can consistently get enough on the ball pace and spin wise to really bother him, and she couldn't keep him off the net where he'd really hurt her.

Agassi and Rafter are younger men, with hard hitting games. They CAN get enough pace and spin on the ball to bother a guy like Mac, their serves are going to be bigger weapons, they can handle Mac's serve better, and Rafter will take the net from Mac whenever he can.

They are all great players.