Yandell's comments on Sampras Serve

[PhrygianDominant]

I read somewhere that Yandell classifies Sampras' serve as a "Left Ball Position" serve.

What does this mean, what denotes Left Ball Position?

Is there a Right Ball Position?

If so, what's the difference?

What are the pros and cons of each?

What is the ball position of other platform serves like Federer's and Agassi's?

[morandi]

I am not certain, but Sampras always placed his tosses in the same spot, more to left then most, like a toss for a kick serve, even on his first serve. This is partially what gave even his first serve a lot of spin.

[PhrygianDominant]

Originally Posted by morandi

I am not certain, but Sampras always placed his tosses in the same spot, more to left then most, like a toss for a kick serve, even on his first serve. This is partially what gave even his first serve a lot of spin.

That's true. I have been doing this accidentally and I was looking for more information on the aforementioned issues (see OP).

[JohnYandell]

morandi is right. If you look at the contact point in a high speed video still frame, you can assess the topspin component in a rough way by looking at the tilt of the racket tip to the left.

Many women are literally straight up and down--Stosur's is tilted at least as much to the left as Federer. Pete further still. And Cilic is too far...

BUT one other key is front to back ball/contact position. If you toss more to the left there is a danger of also tossing behind and sometimes way behind. On the first serve Sampras and Federer make contact with the racket face just in front of the plane of the body--about inline with the nose...

That's the key to combine velocity and heavy spin. There is only one thing worse than not having the ability to hit some kick on your serve--and that's having a slow kick that sits up. The balance between speed and spin is critical.

[PhrygianDominant]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

morandi is right. If you look at the contact point in a high speed video still frame, you can assess the topspin component in a rough way by looking at the tilt of the racket tip to the left.

Many women are literally straight up and down--Stosur's is tilted at least as much to the left as Federer. Pete further still. And Cilic is too far...

BUT one other key is front to back ball/contact position. If you toss more to the left there is a danger of also tossing behind and sometimes way behind. On the first serve Sampras and Federer make contact with the racket face just in front of the plane of the body--about inline with the nose...

That's the key to combine velocity and heavy spin. There is only one thing worse than not having the ability to hit some kick on your serve--and that's having a slow kick that sits up. The balance between speed and spin is critical.

Thanks John!

I am not sure if my other questions weren't seen or are not as relevant as I thought, if you have time to address them, if not no worries!

Originally Posted by PhrygianDominant

Is there a Right Ball Position?

If so, what's the difference?

What are the pros and cons of each?

What is the ball position of other platform serves like Federer's and Agassi's?

[JohnYandell]

As I mentioned Fed is left and so is Agassi. But it's not a platform pinpoint thing if you look at Safin...

The advantage to the right position is possibly to hit flatter but only with slice. As I said you see the women do this. It's one reason why their serves curve to the forehand, Stosur is the opposite.

Just saying but there are hundreds of clips and many articles that discuss this in detail in relation to still images and video on Tennisplayer.

[PhrygianDominant]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

As I mentioned Fed is left and so is Agassi. But it's not a platform pinpoint thing if you look at Safin...

The advantage to the right position is possibly to hit flatter but only with slice. As I said you see the women do this. It's one reason why their serves curve to the forehand, Stosur is the opposite.

Just saying but there are hundreds of clips and many articles that discuss this in detail in relation to still images and video on Tennisplayer.

Fantastic, thankyou very much!

[Relinquis]

the guys i play with recommend different tosses for different serves to make things easier: right for slice, centre for flat and left for topspin/kick. It seems to work, but I don't like this approach to much.

I have always felt that having the same toss (more centred) and hitting the ball from different points was a better approach long term. What do you guys thing?

[2ndServe]

how does he hit such a good slice serve with that toss.

[morandi]

Originally Posted by 2ndServe

how does he hit such a good slice serve with that toss.

For one reason or another, I always struggled with my slice serve when I would place the toss out to the right like most people say to do. When I started tossing more to my left like for a kick serve I found it much more natural feeling to slice the ball from that position. You just have to rotate your body a bit more to the ball.

[rkelley]

I try to put the toss in the same place right to left regardless of where I'm going to hit the serve. The right to left position of the ball is easy for the returner to read.

Much harder for the returner to read is forward/back. On a second serve I will tend to toss back a bit to get more spin.

FWIW, I also try to have the same prep for the serve. I've played people who, for instance, drop the racquet head a bit in the trophy position when they're going to hit a spin serve. They hit a nice serve, but as soon as I see that head drop I know I'm not going to see the heater so I know I'll have time to take a bigger cut at the return and roughly how the ball will fly towards me.

I think it's important to hide one's intent until the last possible moment and still hit the serve.

[JohnYandell]

Sampras was amazing in his ability to hit all four corners from very similar tosses--occasionally you would see him pull the ball even further left when he wanted to go super kick in the ad court, but in general his ball position was similar and that made it impossible to read what was coming.

It's also incredibly difficult to see the micro fine differences in the racket path right around the ball that determined the spins and locations.

We did film one amazing tight high speed clip that showed the racket moving at a slightly flatter angle and more (from the server's perpsective) from left to right on his wide serve in the deuce, as opposed to a deuce serve down the T where it moved slightly more upward.

Something to visualize but probably impossible to manipulate mechanically...

[slowfox]

I gotta say that the Tennisplayer articles on the Sampras serve are amazing. Very comprehensive and detail oriented. I wanted to incorporate that kind of toss into my serve, but had trouble consistently doing it. So I stuck with the straight up and down toss, figuring lots of WTA pros do that so it should be fine for a low level rec player like me.

Also, I'm no longer a Tennisplayer subscriber but I will say that my 1yr membership was totally worth it. This is unsolicited positive feedback.

[JohnYandell]

sf,

Thanks a bunch. Might try somewhere between the women and Pete--aka Federer land for that ball toss placement.

[moopie]

Wow this thread was really insightful. Thank you JY!

[JohnYandell]

Pas de problemo...

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

the guys i play with recommend different tosses for different serves to make things easier: right for slice, centre for flat and left for topspin/kick. It seems to work, but I don't like this approach to much.

I have always felt that having the same toss (more centred) and hitting the ball from different points was a better approach long term. What do you guys thing?

The coaches tell me I MUST toss over my head for the topspin serve.

That is the only way you can brush up on the ball.

Maybe Sampras can serve kick or flat with essentially the same toss, but it would be difficult for most to replicate.

[JohnYandell]

Raul,

Over your head can refer to two things. Left to right. And back to front. Left is definitely necessary. But back to front is where the problem comes in--if you toss much behind the front edge of your head you will lose pace and stress your shoulder. The only thing worse than not having a kick serve is to have one with too little pace that sits up for annihilation.

And I hope I made it clear, understanding what Pete does is different than advocating that others should model him exactly.
He shows us how the left position works. But as I think I said above, a less extreme version like say Roger is a better model for the 99%.

[Clay lover]

I'll give my left ball to have Sampras' left ball position serve.

[slowfox]

Originally Posted by Clay lover

I'll give my left ball to have Sampras' left ball position serve.

Then you'd only have one ball left...