service return: where do you focus your eyes?

Buddy · 11-11-2012, 10:29 PM

I saw an old thread on this but would appreciate new views. I've struggled with watching the server's ball toss up into the air which isn't working for me. I too often fail to see the ball bounce on my side of the court -- any tips would be appreciated on this aspect as well. Some have said to watch the server's chest which partially works for me. Most recently, I've tried to focus on the ball as it crosses over the net -- focus is how many feet above the net. This is a significant improvement for me, but my return of serve is still terrible. I have no problem "seeing" and judging the ball on normal baseline shots, just the serve and return of serve. So where do you focus your eyes on the service return?

xFullCourtTenniSx · 11-11-2012, 10:43 PM

Always ball toss or chest (because that usually can give you a hint to the spin or placement).

If you wait until the ball crosses the net, you'll get aced or miss the ball unless you're dealing with slow serves.

treblings · 11-12-2012, 04:51 AM

some people change their toss, i´ve even seen people change their stance, others stay sideways on slices and kicks. had a doubles opponent recently who changed his position when serving wide or down the middle
had an opponent once who would always stare at me for an extra second, before hitting flat firsts

for me it´s like this. i feel that even very good players sometimes lack the ability or the understanding how to read or evaluate their opponent.

to give you a direct answer to your direct question

i don´t focus my eyes as much as i watch the player as a whole

SystemicAnomaly · 11-12-2012, 05:13 AM

It is ok to notice the toss and its location but you should probably not dwell on it too much. If I recall correctly, gaze control studies show that elite players focus primarily on the upward swing (path) of the server's racquet. It was found that eyes of lesser skilled players tended to dart around much more than elite players. Elite players kept their eyes quieter -- they did not necessarily follow the toss up and own as one might expect. Less is more. Try focusing on the upward swing more and see if that doesn't help.

Ash_Smith · 11-12-2012, 05:23 AM

^^^I remember a similar study, I vaguely remember that the outcome was that elite level players focused on the servers hitting shoulder as opposed to following the ball, where (as you say) the rec players eyes dart around all over the place following the ball, hands, racquets, torso etc.

Cheers

LeeD · 11-12-2012, 09:12 AM

I would have said upper torso, right near the shoulder of the server. Use your peripheral vision on the ball, your eyes are sighted as it's coming in, and little movement is needed to notice where the ball bounces.
The LEAST eye or head movement, the better.

watungga · 11-12-2012, 11:01 AM

Thank heavens for having this issue posted here.

I was struggling where to look before. If I looked at the tossed ball, I imagined the ball heading straight to me. Like it will not bounce at all. I know, its a bad habit. I may have a fear or something.

Now, I trained my eyes to really focus on the ball and assuming that will go to the net. That's it. I have a home-in focus that way.

SystemicAnomaly · 11-12-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

^^^I remember a similar study, I vaguely remember that the outcome was that elite level players focused on the servers hitting shoulder as opposed to following the ball, where (as you say) the rec players eyes dart around all over the place following the ball, hands, racquets, torso etc.

Cheers

I think that you may be correct about the hitting shoulder. I'll have to see if I can dig up the study or my post from several years back on this.

Rozroz · 11-12-2012, 12:14 PM

ooppppssssss

Xonemains · 11-12-2012, 02:16 PM

It does not matter where you look before the ball toss, I receive 160-190km serves all the time. If you are focusing too hard before the toss, you're probably already loss focus when the ball arrives.

The eye and brain knows what's coming and where. You just have to let them work faster by doing the below.

1. Stay fully relaxed and watch the opponent's body language, you will pick up what he will do after 1 set. (Advanced players always do this)

2. Stay very relaxed until he strikes the ball, then you give it all the focus and concentration on the ball only, your eyes will be on the ball only!!!!! your body will move naturally on its own to meet the ball.

3. Lastly, this is absolutely crucial!!! And very very simple. Stay very low and lower your centre of gravity, your eyes will be underneath the ball when the opponent tosses the ball. Your brain process things a lot quicker if the ball is above your line of sight, things like , ball speed, direction and spin. I'm not going to explain the physics of it.

Tennis is easy if you let it be, it's just more physical nowadays

Buddy · 11-12-2012, 07:22 PM

Some good advice which I'll try next time I'm out. I also think some of my problem is overly concerning myself with the net player in dubs. 4.0 USTA, men's doubles. I haven't played singles in quite awhile, but I definitely have more difficulty with service returns in doubles. Any thoughts.

SystemicAnomaly · 11-12-2012, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xonemains

It does not matter where you look before the ball toss, I receive 160-190km serves all the time. If you are focusing too hard before the toss, you're probably already loss focus when the ball arrives.

The eye and brain knows what's coming and where. You just have to let them work faster by doing the below.

1. Stay fully relaxed and watch the opponent's body language, you will pick up what he will do after 1 set. (Advanced players always do this)

2. Stay very relaxed until he strikes the ball, then you give it all the focus and concentration on the ball only, your eyes will be on the ball only!!!!! your body will move naturally on its own to meet the ball.

3. Lastly, this is absolutely crucial!!! And very very simple. Stay very low and lower your centre of gravity, your eyes will be underneath the ball when the opponent tosses the ball. Your brain process things a lot quicker if the ball is above your line of sight, things like , ball speed, direction and spin. I'm not going to explain the physics of it.

Good points but I do not fully agree with #2. Prior to contact, elite serve returners fixate on the ball briefly prior to contact according to studies on this subject. Take a look at my post from 3 years back on this subject. It contains a link that is germane to this thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Prior to the ball leaving the server's racquet, I am primarily watching the server's upper body and his/her ball toss during their service motion. Perhaps I dwell a bit too much on the toss tho'.

I have read several journal articles that discuss this very issue. Interestingly, elite players will watch the server and the ball somewhat differently from less accomplished players. Elite players will fixate on the ball only briefly but will spend more time fixating on a few aspects of the server's upper body. What is really interesting is that elite players will have fewer fixations than lesser players. However, the duration of each fixation is longer for the elite player. It would appear the the non-elite player will have their eyes jump around a lot more than the elite player. Here is one of those studies:

http://www.cafyd.com/REVISTA/art3n5a06.pdf

.

Buddy · 11-12-2012, 07:59 PM

Thanks for the info but I wonder if the study of the Advanced vs Novice tennis coaches was to have them observe servers for the purpose of i) how best to return a serve or ii) how best to detect serve flaws. The reason is the following excerpt from the study: "The main areas of interest for both
groups of coaches were similar in both situations, and there was not clear the effect of the dimensionality of the display on the visual behaviour of the coaches during the mistakes detection process." So I will still try to focus on the hitting shoulder.....

Ash_Smith · 11-12-2012, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xonemains

Your brain process things a lot quicker if the ball is above your line of sight, things like , ball speed, direction and spin. I'm not going to explain the physics of it.

Interesting, not heard this theory before. Can you explain further? Spatial awareness of actions above the eye line is one of the last areas of proprioception to develop in juniors (usually around 8 or 9 years of age - which is why learning to serve is tougher than hitting a ground when you learn as a kid), but I've not heard that processing outside information is faster vhen the object is above the eyeline?

cheers

NTRPolice · 11-13-2012, 03:49 AM

I tend to watch the ball as it goes upwards. The next place I look is where I think the ball will bounce in the court. By looking there, you can get a peripheral of the incoming spin pre-bounce and serve direction, but more importantly, the action of the ball after it hits the court. This is especially important on the second serve since the ball moves a lot more and you will be forced to return a little "harder".

On first serves I watch the impact to get the direction. After that, I look into the court where I think the ball will bounce in the court and then try to meet the ball with my racket. Against big servers, I dont get the luxury of watching the ball actually hit my racket, lol.

SystemicAnomaly · 11-13-2012, 04:26 AM

Expertise differences in preparing to return a tennis serve

The study above indicates that expert tennis players focused primarily on the shoulder/trunk area during the ritual phase of the serve. During the execution phase, expert players focused primarily on the racquet, while non-elite players tended to use more cues (their eyes darted around more, looking at the ball and different parts of the server).

BHiC · 11-13-2012, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Expertise differences in preparing to return a tennis serve

The study above indicates that expert tennis players focused primarily on the shoulder/trunk area during the ritual phase of the serve. During the execution phase, expert players focused primarily on the racquet, while non-elite players tended to use more cues (their eyes darted around more, looking at the ball and different parts of the server).

Yes, I agree with you. I remember I attended a seminar by someone who specialized in this, and studied where the eyes were focused during play. The pro players that she tracked watched the opponent's torso at the start of the serve, then moved their vision to the right arm (of a right handed player) during the toss, and finally followed the ball up to the server's contact point.

SystemicAnomaly · 11-13-2012, 05:35 AM

^ Did they follow the ball up to the contact or the racket? The latter makes more sense. Was that Joan Vickers who presented that seminar?

cork_screw · 11-16-2012, 10:15 PM

You need to focus your eyes on the first letter of the brand of ball you're using. So for instance, if you're using Penn 1. You need to focus your eyes on the "P" as it's coming to you. And wilson with "W" Just keep practicing that.

jwbarrientos · 11-17-2012, 02:17 PM

Grip at the begining, ball all the rest of the way.

11-11-2012, 10:29 PM	#1
Buddy New User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 62	service return: where do you focus your eyes? I saw an old thread on this but would appreciate new views. I've struggled with watching the server's ball toss up into the air which isn't working for me. I too often fail to see the ball bounce on my side of the court -- any tips would be appreciated on this aspect as well. Some have said to watch the server's chest which partially works for me. Most recently, I've tried to focus on the ball as it crosses over the net -- focus is how many feet above the net. This is a significant improvement for me, but my return of serve is still terrible. I have no problem "seeing" and judging the ball on normal baseline shots, just the serve and return of serve. So where do you focus your eyes on the service return? Last edited by Buddy : 11-12-2012 at 07:17 PM. Reason: .

11-12-2012, 04:51 AM	#3
treblings Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,891	some people change their toss, i´ve even seen people change their stance, others stay sideways on slices and kicks. had a doubles opponent recently who changed his position when serving wide or down the middle had an opponent once who would always stare at me for an extra second, before hitting flat firsts for me it´s like this. i feel that even very good players sometimes lack the ability or the understanding how to read or evaluate their opponent. to give you a direct answer to your direct question i don´t focus my eyes as much as i watch the player as a whole __________________ Head Prestige Pro (2nd gen)

11-12-2012, 05:13 AM	#4
SystemicAnomaly Legend Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA Posts: 7,740	It is ok to notice the toss and its location but you should probably not dwell on it too much. If I recall correctly, gaze control studies show that elite players focus primarily on the upward swing (path) of the server's racquet. It was found that eyes of lesser skilled players tended to dart around much more than elite players. Elite players kept their eyes quieter -- they did not necessarily follow the toss up and own as one might expect. Less is more. Try focusing on the upward swing more and see if that doesn't help. __________________ . Every tool is a weapon -- if you hold it right. (~Ani DiFranco)

11-12-2012, 05:23 AM	#5
Ash_Smith Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 2,259	^^^I remember a similar study, I vaguely remember that the outcome was that elite level players focused on the servers hitting shoulder as opposed to following the ball, where (as you say) the rec players eyes dart around all over the place following the ball, hands, racquets, torso etc. Cheers __________________ I tweet - @ashtennis guru (no spaces) I Shoot - www.flickr.com/photos/ashtennis guru/ (again no spaces! grrr)

11-12-2012, 11:01 AM	#7
watungga Rookie Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 228	Thank heavens for having this issue posted here. I was struggling where to look before. If I looked at the tossed ball, I imagined the ball heading straight to me. Like it will not bounce at all. I know, its a bad habit. I may have a fear or something. Now, I trained my eyes to really focus on the ball and assuming that will go to the net. That's it. I have a home-in focus that way. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg Thou shalt master 5:57.