Baseball Hall of Fame 2013

[maleyoyo]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

. Most of his non-HR accomplishments were pre PED, and he was definitely a HOFer before he even touched the stuff.

What do you mean by pre PED era?
In 2006, the book Game of Shadows, excerpts of grand jury testimony was leaked and claimed that Bonds used stanozolol (which was the steroids of choice of Ben Johnson during 1988 Olympics.)
The MLB league ban came into effect 1991, so we can’t be certain that Bonds was dirty or not way back then in the 90s.

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by maleyoyo

What do you mean by pre PED era?
In 2006, the book Game of Shadows, excerpts of grand jury testimony was leaked and claimed that Bonds used stanozolol (which was the steroids of choice of Ben Johnson during 1988 Olympics.)
The MLB league ban came into effect 1991, so we can’t be certain that Bonds was dirty or not way back then in the 90s.

The book also says he started using after 1998 season. To that point he had 374 HRs, 417 steals, 8 AS appearances, 8 golden gloves, and 3 MVP awards.

“To Bonds it was a joke. He had been around enough gyms to recognize that McGwire was a juicer. Bonds himself had never used anything more performance enhancing than a protein shake from the health-food store. But as the 1998 season unfolded, and as he watched Mark McGwire take over the game—his game—Barry Bonds decided that he, too, would begin using what he called ‘the stuff.’”

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...efore-steroids

[maleyoyo]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

The book also says he started using after 1998 season. To that point he had 374 HRs, 417 steals, 8 AS appearances, 8 golden gloves, and 3 MVP awards.

"Bonds' journey into the world of performance-enhancing supplements began in January 1997, when he tried androstenedione for the first time, a man who says he sold it to the slugger told ESPN The Magazine's Shaun Assael. Stan Antosh, a California biochemist.”

Even the timeline is tricky depends who you talk to.

“New York Daily News reports that Bonds failed a drug test under MLB's amphetamine policy during the 2006 season. Under the policy, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test for amphetamines”

Do we know all the nuts and bolts of the agreements between the MLB and the players’ union regarding PED? This was 2006. How about in the 90s?
There were grand jury testimonies, records that were sealed.
It’s awfully hard for us not to put a big question mark on Bonds’ entire achievements.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3113127

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Where on earth did I say that? Are you one whos also cheated so you have to try and make people believe you accomplished something legitimately?

I am one of the ones that can recognized that peds dont make someone the most feared hitter in baseball. He was that good the peds just allowed him to do it longer and ya he got bigger. Its not like he went from a fringe player to a superstar overnight because he took some funky stuff.

PEDS are not this fix all that if your a mediocre player all the sudden you become a hall of famer.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maleyoyo

"Bonds' journey into the world of performance-enhancing supplements began in January 1997, when he tried androstenedione for the first time, a man who says he sold it to the slugger told ESPN The Magazine's Shaun Assael. Stan Antosh, a California biochemist.”

Even the timeline is tricky depends who you talk to.

“New York Daily News reports that Bonds failed a drug test under MLB's amphetamine policy during the 2006 season. Under the policy, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test for amphetamines”

Do we know all the nuts and bolts of the agreements between the MLB and the players’ union regarding PED? This was 2006. How about in the 90s?
There were grand jury testimonies, records that were sealed.
It’s awfully hard for us not to put a big question mark on Bonds’ entire achievements.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3113127

It appears a lot of people wanna hold on to the idea that Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa ams so many others had to be clean because they were the guys they rooted for and theres no way they could have been hoodwinked so bad so they refuse to admit they didnt realize their hero was a cheater. Some even try to throw out the, "how do you know Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth werent juicing?" to try and avoid realization that 'their' guy doesnt really measure up to the guys of the past.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maverick66

I am one of the ones that can recognized that peds dont make someone the most feared hitter in baseball. He was that good the peds just allowed him to do it longer and ya he got bigger. Its not like he went from a fringe player to a superstar overnight because he took some funky stuff.

PEDS are not this fix all that if your a mediocre player all the sudden you become a hall of famer.

Ohhhh, youre one of those guys huh? He went from a guy who hit mid 30 HRs-lower 40 HRs a year to all the sudden the closer he got to 40 years old he could hit over 70 HRs at the same time he was being walked close to 200 times in the same season? And youre one of those guys who can tell PEDs didnt make him the most feared hitter in history? Were you born with that ability or buy it at Wal Mart?

No ones said these PEDs turned a mediocre player into a HOFer but Jose Canseco said that it took him from a career minor league type player into an AL MVP. Plus if you are already an MVP type player like Bonds, we saw that it turned him into a Superman at the plate. If you cant see that then nothing else needs to be discussed

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

It appears a lot of people wanna hold on to the idea that Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa ams so many others had to be clean because they were the guys they rooted for and theres no way they could have been hoodwinked so bad so they refuse to admit they didnt realize their hero was a cheater.

You're starting to sound stupid right now. The argument isn't about if these guys juiced, but when they started and how much it had to do with their success. Guys like Bonds and Clemens were great even before they juiced.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

You're starting to sound stupid right now. The argument isn't about if these guys juiced, but when they started and how much it had to do with their success. Guys like Bonds and Clemens were great even before they juiced.

Oh, I guess you have forgotten how many people, including the Red Sox front office thought Clemens was washed up when they let him go and he was doing horrible in Toronto before he started juicing and it totally trasnformed him into an even better pitcher than he was before.

Even by your ridiculous post earlier you were admitting that close to half of Bonds' HRs were probably if not definitely aided by PEDs yet you still want him enshrined in the HOF and youre calling me stupid?

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Even by your ridiculous post earlier you were admitting that close to half of Bonds' HRs were probably if not definitely aided by PEDs yet you still want him enshrined in the HOF and youre calling me stupid?

Because HRs alone aren't the only reason for Bonds' HOF credentials. The guy was a great, GREAT outfielder during the 90s, as evidenced by his 8 gold glove awards. Also was a monster on the basepaths, as evidenced by his steal numbers.

In an alternate universe where Bonds never uses PED and continues on his career trajectory, he would have still had likely gotten 500+ HRs and 500+ SB (the only player EVER to do that BTW).

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

Because HRs alone aren't the only reason for Bonds' HOF credentials. The guy was a great, GREAT outfielder during the 90s, as evidenced by his 8 gold glove awards. Also was a monster on the basepaths, as evidenced by his steal numbers.

In an alternate universe where Bonds never uses PED and continues on his career trajectory, he would have still had likely gotten 500+ HRs and 500+ SB (the only player EVER to do that BTW).

Yes, but he wasnt content with hitting "just" 500 HRs so he chose to cheat so he could pass the HR king Henry Aaron. Joe Jackson wouldve been a HOFer and so would Pete Rose but they made bad choices just like Bonds and Clemens did.

[ollinger]

That a player was good or great before he "juiced" is irrelevant. Baseball writers are told to factor a player's character and integrity in their voting; cheating suggests neither character nor integrity. These players had a simple choice: I can juice and make more millions than if I hadn't, or I can remain eligible for enduring glory. They made their choices and need to live with that.

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by ollinger

That a player was good or great before he "juiced" is irrelevant. Baseball writers are told to factor a player's character and integrity in their voting; cheating suggests neither character nor integrity. These players had a simple choice: I can juice and make more millions than if I hadn't, or I can remain eligible for enduring glory. They made their choices and need to live with that.

Ty Cobb was the picture of character and integrity.

[ollinger]

^^ Fortunately for Cobb, he was elected to the Hall in 1936. Character, integrity and sportsmanship were specified as criteria in 1945.

[ollinger]

(but there's scant excuse for a restaurant I was at last week serving a fusion dish called the "Thai Cobb Salad.")

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

Rose should be in too.

Wow...Rose should be in too?

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by maverick66

They became the poster boys of the steroid era. The press hates Bonds because he wasnt the nicest guy to deal with and they will never let that go. Its all a show to try and make an example out of certain guys but its honestly a big black eye on the MLB not the players.

I just dont see how you can keep the most dominant hitter of his era out of the hall.

You can't see how a cheater should be kept out of the Hall of Fame? I gues it is OK to cheat. When you play tennis to you question line calls? Rules are rules. They should all be kept out forever.. end of Story.

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

Because HRs alone aren't the only reason for Bonds' HOF credentials. The guy was a great, GREAT outfielder during the 90s, as evidenced by his 8 gold glove awards. Also was a monster on the basepaths, as evidenced by his steal numbers.

In an alternate universe where Bonds never uses PED and continues on his career trajectory, he would have still had likely gotten 500+ HRs and 500+ SB (the only player EVER to do that BTW).

Guess he made the choice to cheat and now he is paying the price. No one gave a darn when he broke Hank's 714. ESPN kept trying to get interest going... no one was buying it!!!

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by ollinger

That a player was good or great before he "juiced" is irrelevant. Baseball writers are told to factor a player's character and integrity in their voting; cheating suggests neither character nor integrity. These players had a simple choice: I can juice and make more millions than if I hadn't, or I can remain eligible for enduring glory. They made their choices and need to live with that.

Bingo!!!!!

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by SteveI

You can't see how a cheater should be kept out of the Hall of Fame? I gues it is OK to cheat. When you play tennis to you question line calls? Rules are rules. They should all be kept out forever.. end of Story.

Baseball used these guys when the game was dying during the 90s. They helped bring baseball back. Now people want to be holier than thou and drag them through the mud. It's ridiculous and I'm tired of it.

Baseball has always had cheaters. Guys using greenies and amphetamines back in the 70s. Scuffing balls. Pine tar. Stealing signs. Corked bats. Gimme a break.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

Baseball used these guys when the game was dying during the 90s. They helped bring baseball back. Now people want to be holier than thou and drag them through the mud. It's ridiculous and I'm tired of it.

Baseball has always had cheaters. Guys using greenies and amphetamines back in the 70s. Scuffing balls. Pine tar. Stealing signs. Corked bats. Gimme a break.

Youre tired of those who dont want to reward cheating? Some side you chose.