Who is the female Tennis GOAT?

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Not considering achievements in a vacuum at all. It certainly is not straight forward. However, most of us put stronger emphasis on achievements that other factors. Achievements speak volumes. Other considerations, however, are not ignored. You analogy is flawed.

how is it flawed? because you say so? graf's so called greatness came when her biggest rival was out out the game and nav played in an era most consider weak. most of there stats are because of the era they played in. simple question would nav,even adjust to the era, have the same stats if she played from 00-07?

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Margaret Court is certainly one of the all-time greats. Belongs in the top 3 or 4. However the AO in her time was rather weak -- not much more than a glorified local tournament. A lot of the top 20 did not play the AO back then. Eleven of her singles slam wins were at the AO -- just less than half.

It is difficult to compare achievements of pre-Open, pre-WTA greats with Graf, Navratilova and modern players. Back in the day,there were only 2 slam surfaces. Court won 5 of her singles titles on clay. The rest were all on grass. Difficult to make a direct comparison to the modern game for this reason alone.

point1- is that her fault? if any thing she had it harder than them because she won all 4 last i checked.

point2-but ppl still rate laver high even though he played in the same era and on the same surfaces. you want to put qualifiers for surface but not on the competition who actually hit the ball.

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

point1- is that her fault? if any thing she had it harder than them because she won all 4 last i checked.

point2-but ppl still rate laver high even though he played in the same era and on the same surfaces. you want to put qualifiers for surface but not on the competition who actually hit the ball.

This is the tired and true Graftard method over the years, always without fail.

-Those who achieved less than Graf vs greater competition, but still enough to be compared given the greater competition and higher level of play they displayed (eg- Serena, pre stabbing Seles), simply dismiss them saying "they dont have the numbers".

-Those who achieved more than Graf in every sense (Court, at one point and if you factor doubles Navratilova) qualify their wins with excuses and say numbers dont matter anymore.

Voila Graf ends up the mythical GOAT, works everytime.


BTW nearly everyone who followed the game back then feels the best surface of both Court and Laver would have been hard courts, and they both probably would have won even more slams if the U.S Open was on hard courts back then. So that "grass only" excuse is also a poor one. Plus back then grass the was the preeminent surface of tennis then, just like hard courts is today.

To put into perspective Graf's competition her two biggest career rivals by far were Sabatini and Sanchez, both who she played roughly 40 times, and both who she played en route to winning her slams far more often than anyone else. Here is a sampling of them playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg2ix2rRA88 Sanchez Vicario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivonLkOwKwc Sanchez Vicario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6u3-hK6T4U Sabatini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY2EQVFsPvo

if someone like Serena faced only that rather than facing all of Venus, Henin, Davenport, Sharapova, Clijsters, Hingis, Kuznetsova, Mauresmo, Pierce, she would have atleast 30 slams already.

[tbuggle]

Serena is the greatest women's player ever, IMO.

I realize she doesn't have the numbers that some others do,
but there are some reasons for that.

competition, injuries, hiatus, focus, richard, etc.

nonetheless, I fully believe she is the best to ever step on the court.

i grew up watching 70-80's tennis, etc. Yes, Martina, Stefi and Monica were phenomenal
(i'd leave Hingis out this discussion altogether, she was the Lleyton Hewitt of her time,
to me....and nothing wrong with that).

[President]

Serena is probably the best and most complete player of all time, but she struggled with motivation and inconsistent performances throughout the years. Right now I don't think her resume is worthy of being called GOAT, maybe she can if she continues to rack up majors like she is doing now though.

[The-Champ]

Queen Serena aka, the queen of aces is the GOAT!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PtT9Ly-yA

[tbuggle]

Martina holds 59 majors, if we're going by the counting method.

[The-Champ]

Originally Posted by tbuggle

Serena is the greatest women's player ever, IMO.

I realize she doesn't have the numbers that some others do,
but there are some reasons for that.

competition, injuries, hiatus, focus, richard, etc.

nonetheless, I fully believe she is the best to ever step on the court.

i grew up watching 70-80's tennis, etc. Yes, Martina, Stefi and Monica were phenomenal
(i'd leave Hingis out this discussion altogether, she was the Lleyton Hewitt of her time,
to me....and nothing wrong with that).

Serena's new coach is doing a great job. At age 31, she won the WTA championship without dropping a set, started 2013 by winning Brisbane without dropping a set. But let's not bash the man who after all laid the foundation to the player the queen of aces would become.

If Serena doesn't get injured this year, I am confident she will win all 4.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

system anomaly for one in this thread. you have no logic skills do you? it doesn't have to be everyone, you will never find a 100% of everything. it's an example, the same way you you used steve flink as yours.

Now you are just making up stuff. Where did I say that Serena was using steroids?

Your Everest analogy is flawed because all of the greats have "climbed Everest". Some have done it more times than Serena. You might say that Serena has climbed it faster or with more weight on her back.
.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Now you are just making up stuff. Where did I say that Serena was using steroids?

Your Everest analogy is flawed because all of the greats have "climbed Everest". Some have done it more times than Serena. You might say that Serena has climbed it faster or with more weight on her back.
.

stop lying-
post 69-this thread
post 22- fed serena bench press

point2- the mountain is the competition you face. again answer me this: was there any time in graf or nav's careers were they had the depth and talent of competition that serena had from 2000-2007? and even if we did it your way my point would still be right.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

point1- is that her fault? if any thing she had it harder than them because she won all 4 last i checked.

point2-but ppl still rate laver high even though he played in the same era and on the same surfaces. you want to put qualifiers for surface but not on the competition who actually hit the ball.

Point 1 is pointless. Your argument there makes no sense. On point 2, why are you bringing up what "some ppl" say about Laver? Most consider Federer to be GOAT rather than Laver. Also, you criticized me earlier claiming that I was not taking any other factors other than total achievements into consideration -- in a vacuum? When I bring up one of these other factors, you criticize me for that. Where is the consistency, man?

As for competition these greats faced, I also mentioned that Court was not playing against a strong field at the 11 AO singles events that she won. You are wrong on that account as well.

Get your facts straight... Again, where in this thread or any other thread did I claim that Serena was using steroids. In another thread, not this one, I speculated that Serena might have high testosterone levels but I never did claim that she was using steroids.

As for competition faced by others... NA keeps harping on the Seles stabbing. Even w/o Seles in the picture, Graf still had plenty of competition. It was not a "weak era" w/o Seles as some would have you believe. Note also that pre-stabbing, Graf and Seles met 10 times and Graf still had the lead head-to-head. At Wimbledon (89 & 92), Steffi blew Monica out of the water. Check out those scores.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

stop lying-
post 69-this thread
post 22- fed serena bench press...

You seem to be confused. Post 69 is not my post. In the other thread, someone else claimed that Serena was juicing. I did NOT. Read my post again. It was speculation on possibilities other than steroids. Your comprehension is suspect.

You and NA seem to be going on and on with various rants. I am exiting this thread since it no longer appears to be fruitful. Don't bother making up more fabrications of what I have written.
.

[ctjpm]

'Serena is tougher than Monica though' = subjective. Serena was never in Monica's position. Monica's mental toughness was legendary and it floored her.'

'you were asking about toughness....i made the point that serena' s toghness was shown just as much as seles if not more. both came back from career/life ending injuries and won matches they were losing in.'

Where? Serena's toughness doesn't always shine, when things aren't going her way on court and she appears like she's going to cry, I don't associate that with toughness period.

Even the womens game today which people diss has far more depth than anytime before the late 90s. Anyone in the top 50 almost has potential to beat any great player on their day. That was never the case in the womens game in the past.

Serena is 51-9 against the current top ten (not including w/o), three players have never beaten her. Wasn't Akiko Kijimuta ranked 150 when she led Seles 4-1 third set @ RG'92. De Swardt & Graf played three 3 setters, the South African never cracked the top 20 though has a better record against Graf than the current no. 1 has against Serena.

'Graf and Seles met 10 times and Graf still had the lead head-to-head.'

How successful was Steffi against the reigning no. 1 aged fifteen?

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Point 1 is pointless. Your argument there makes no sense. On point 2, why are you bringing up what "some ppl" say about Laver? Most consider Federer to be GOAT rather than Laver.

40+ years of Laver calling the GOAT happened for a reason.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Also to the person who said the stabbing was not a unique event, get a clue. How many times has an athlete been nearly stabbed to death by a crazy fan of their archrival on the field during play, especialy in an individual sport like tennis. Yeah I thought so.

How many times has a 19-year old who was winning every major in the game suffered a career-ending injury due to a horse riding accident?

How many times has a man who had won a CYGS (and 9 consecutive major tournaments) been denied the chance to play six years of his career due to a World War?

Again: either we re-write history for everybody (and assume what "would have" happened) or we do it for nobody.

We can't just rewrite history to discredit Graf because of the Seles incident.

[rainingaces]

williams are lucky that anyone decent in their era retired almost in their prime, dont forget that little fact. Davenport had two more slams in her and henin was near her prime.

[ctjpm]

How many times has a 19-year old who was winning every major in the game suffered a career-ending injury due to a horse riding accident?

Accident. Relevant word here. The stabbing was a premeditated attack.

How many times has a man who had won a CYGS (and 9 consecutive major tournaments) been denied the chance to play six years of his career due to a World War?

Laver missing all major play '63-'67, is often not spoken off too.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

The Seles stabbing should be a much bigger asterix than the Australian Open fields of the 60s. I did a breakdown once and estimated Court would have probably won roughly 9 of her 11 Australian Opens even if everyone played. You cant say anyone would have been favored over her on her home court, on her favorite speed of grass, early in the year when she was always fresh and ready to go (her slam tallies at Wimbledon and U.S Open suffered as she sometimes had a baby or took temporary retirement starting mid year).

Oh so because you did a breakdown, that means it is true?

People always throw out these hypotheticals and rank players based on what they think would have happened - even if these things sometimes contradict each other (i.e. saying that Borg is GOAT because he would have won all the AOs played in the 70s but then also saying Connors would have won all four slams if he'd played in the French in 1974 and would have taken more French titles off Borg throughout the 1970s - which would of course negate Borg's place as GOAT).

In any case I'm getting off the point, which is that the pre-Open Era (and yes I'm aware there was no pro-am split as in the men's, but the level of play and competition was still lower than in the professional era where women knew they were getting paid and thus dedicated themselves more to their sport, skill, fitness etc.) was weaker than the Open Era. Especially the AO.

Plus I love how you assume that Seles would have continued dominating after 1993 when we don't know that is the case. Let's assume McEnroe had been stabbed at the end of 1984 and had to retire, but everything else played out as it actually did. Lendl still ended up dominating the late 80s. In your world, Lendl could not possibly have done this if Mac hadn't been stabbed - but we all know he did anyway.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Of course when it comes to competition Serena had by far the hardest of all time from 1999-2007 when she won most of her current slams.

1999-2003, certainly - a golden age of womens' tennis.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Even the womens game today which people diss has far more depth than anytime before the late 90s. Anyone in the top 50 almost has potential to beat any great player on their day. That was never the case in the womens game in the past.

I don't especially rate the womens' tour today but that is a matter of personal opinion.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by ctjpm

How many times has a 19-year old who was winning every major in the game suffered a career-ending injury due to a horse riding accident?

Accident. Relevant word here. The stabbing was a premeditated attack.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we can rewrite history because of the stabbing, and take away slams from Graf and give them to Seles in some hypothetical scenario. If we do that, we have to do it for all hypotheticals.

We can't pick and choose and say that solely in the Seles case can we rewrite history, which is what NadalAgassi wishes to do.

Originally Posted by ctjpm

How many times has a man who had won a CYGS (and 9 consecutive major tournaments) been denied the chance to play six years of his career due to a World War?

Laver missing all major play '63-'67, is often not spoken off too.

It is spoken of by those who know their tennis history.

But I agree that is another hypothetical - how many classic majors would Laver have won, had he not turned pro at the end of 1962.