The Serve: Busting misconceptions once and for all

[tennisdad65]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I was clocked at 78 a few years ago in one of the tents at a WTA event

If it was an ATP event the same serve would have been clocked at 88.

[sureshs]

LOL what was surprising was that an elderly thin woman was consistently hitting 90! Everyone was surprised.

Before that tourney, there was a "practice" for several men at a resort. They were going to the tourney, and wanted to clock themselves beforehand. Radar gun was set up. The men were mostly 4.0s and 4.5s and regulars at USTA tournaments. I watched the whole thing. Most serves which were over 70 were faults - and don't even ask about foot faults. There was just one guy who could serve with any consistency above 80 and once hit 98 or so.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Let us go with one. Facing forward, then coiling and then uncoiling?

Or going with body also at an angle from the start? Then it seems that coiling and uncoiling cannot happen for ad court serves (rightie).

Know how you use your core. Do you rotate and or bow/arch your body and how much for each. Mostly some combination but it's good to know how much of each you like to do and can do. This affects the precise feet positions and stance. try not using the torso rotation and bow at all and just use the shoulder and arm for practice. face forward to do this. only when your torso is rotating turn the stance sideway. strong full 90 rotation full sideway. relaxed smaller rotation less sideway, etc.

[treblings]

surehs, don´t you find it at least a bit ironic, that one moment you wonder if it´s correct to stand on your toes in a back scratch position, and the next moment you´re questioning long-time coaches and demand to see credentials, like how many top players have they coached?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by treblings

surehs, don´t you find it at least a bit ironic, that one moment you wonder if it´s correct to stand on your toes in a back scratch position, and the next moment you´re questioning long-time coaches and demand to see credentials, like how many top players have they coached?

At least you are consistent in contributing nothing and trying to derail threads

[LeeD]

WHERE your opponent's stand to face your serve tells you something about your pace.
If they tend to stand 4' behind the baseline, you prolly have a decent serve.
If they stand atop the baseline, not so.
If they stand in NML, either your serve really sucks or it's so good they can't return it from farther back.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by sureshs

At least you are consistent in contributing nothing and trying to derail threads

self-reflection is not one of your strengths, is it?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

Know how you use your core. Do you rotate and or bow/arch your body and how much for each. Mostly some combination but it's good to know how much of each you like to do and can do. This affects the precise feet positions and stance. try not using the torso rotation and bow at all and just use the shoulder and arm for practice. face forward to do this. only when your torso is rotating turn the stance sideway. strong full 90 rotation full sideway. relaxed smaller rotation less sideway, etc.

Let us pause right there. I am very particular about serve and constantly tinkering with it to get it like the pros. I have even stopped playing if I felt unhappy with the serve, just not returning the returner's return.

What is a realistic speed expectation when using only shoulder and arm?

[LeeD]

If you're in a wheelchair, you should expect to hit 85mph flat first serves, most of which might no go in.....and never hit the backboard after it's initial IN bounce.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

If you're in a wheelchair, you should expect to hit 85mph flat first serves, most of which might no go in.....and never hit the backboard after it's initial IN bounce.

And what would be a realistic speed if I want to be in a wheelchair and want most of the serves to go in? For flat and spin please.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Let us pause right there. I am very particular about serve and constantly tinkering with it to get it like the pros. I have even stopped playing if I felt unhappy with the serve, just not returning the returner's return.

What is a realistic speed expectation when using only shoulder and arm?

You can hit pretty fast with just shoulder and arm but I don't recommend trying it. Not very well coordinated souls can get injured. Try to relax and see how you 'naturally' like to use your shoulder and arm focusing on keeping everything in the sweetspot of range of motion. Go slow and smooth but the pronation better be snappy otherwise you lose too much control. Start at the contact point and slowly try to expand using more of the chain. knowing the exact feel at the contact point is the most important key.

[LeeD]

YOU, or a tennis player in general?
Realistic....you could poop it in at 60 mph, flat, and get some in, strikepoint like a normal person's high forehand.
You can whack heck out of it, a little deadball, a little forward spin, maybe 105, and get it in once in a blue moon....
But you probably don't have the developed arms of a real wheehchair server.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by sureshs

And what would be a realistic speed if I want to be in a wheelchair and want most of the serves to go in? For flat and spin please.

For a wheelchair player 84mph is the absolute max a ball can be hit with no spin (were that possible) based on average contact point heights. With spin theoretically you could increase this to ATP speeds if you could move the racquet fast enough, but realistically the best male servers on tour are serving at around 100mph which requires around 2000rpm to go in from the average contact height.

[LeeD]

Do they lock the wheels on the chairs?
I'm serious, I friend of mine is thinking of taking up tennis, after years of monoskiing on his wheelchair. His arms are double mine in strength, us weighing the same.

[sureshs]

The serve is a very frustrating beast. I think my first serve is a second serve. Both use a little knee bend, a little rotation, and spin. With that, I am pretty competitive at the 4.0 level, and the second serve is far better than the dinks of some 4.5s.

What will happen is that on Sundays when I am relaxed, the serve will be great. On Fridays, like today, I will be upset with the quality. On Tuesdays, it will be in between. I cannot get the rhythm the same all the time and I cannot tolerate it. I will serve one in the middle of the box and then walk away disgusted that it was not deep.

I don't feel the same every time I serve. One day I am very smooth all archy and heads up and knees bent, one day I am flat footed.

There must be a way out of this. There are 4 adult players in my club who serve better than me, and they are all 4.5s, and I know that all 4 have played since they were kids, two here and two in the Philippines. Which doesn't give me much confidence in learning anything from the rest of those around me. Out of the 4 teaching pros here, 2 of them have worse serves than me, one is the same as me, and the 4th one who can heat it up had beaten Vijay Amritraj. I have observed his serves very carefully, but his 6+ height gives him trajectories others don't have. So the pros are not useful either.

[Ash_Smith]

@LeeD - nope...

Houdet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bknn6RjwgOA

Kunieda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTguQs4ly18

Two of the best male servers

and, of course

Lucy Shuker (whom I have the pleasure of working with)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eJHTF1f0xI

Your friend totally should take up tennis!

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Out of the 4 teaching pros here, 2 of them have worse serves than me, one is the same as me, and the 4th one who can heat it up had beaten Vijay Amritraj. I have observed his serves very carefully, but his 6+ height gives him trajectories others don't have. So the pros are not useful either.

Unless, god forbid, you actually book a lesson with one of them! I mean, maybe...they know stuff!

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

For a wheelchair player 84mph is the absolute max a ball can be hit with no spin (were that possible) based on average contact point heights. With spin theoretically you could increase this to ATP speeds if you could move the racquet fast enough, but realistically the best male servers on tour are serving at around 100mph which requires around 2000rpm to go in from the average contact height.

What I am getting at with the post @leed and you is that are club players benefiting at all from adopting the proper service motion? Though there are several at the 4.0 level and some at the 4.5 level with pretty horrible technique, many of the players do have elements of the standard serve - the conti, the knee bend, the arch, the pause, the swing, some pronation etc. The result is not showing though. Some of the beautiful kick serves which are seen and admired at this level are not effective - the same level opponent can easily return them.

Technique (or attempts and it) and style - but the result? Probably the same as just standing there and swinging at the ball.

Very disappointing.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Unless, god forbid, you actually book a lesson with one of them! I mean, maybe...they know stuff!

I have seen all their lessons over the years, playing on adjacent courts. They look good while demonstrating stuff, ball arching in with spin and all that. Then then say "let's play some points" and their serves go into the net or long or suck. How can I settle for that? I need to find someone better than me.

The 4th guy is good and I know all the stuff he teaches juniors. It is matter of me doing it.

[TCF]

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