The Serve: Busting misconceptions once and for all

[LeeD]

Maybe we need a video of Suresh serving his flat and his second serves, so we have an idea where to start?
I'm willing to bet he can serve harder than most WTA players. He probably only needs enough practice to replicate that serve into a real match.
I hope Suresh is at least 5'10" tall and in somewhat good shape.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Maybe we need a video of Suresh serving his flat and his second serves, so we have an idea where to start?
I'm willing to bet he can serve harder than most WTA players. He probably only needs enough practice to replicate that serve into a real match.
I hope Suresh is at least 5'10" tall and in somewhat good shape.

I am just 5'10" - shape not optimal but BMI indicates overweight but not obese. I definitely cannot serve harder than most WTA players, actually any WTA player I think.

Practice time is definitely an issue. And perhaps the most important issue. But that is what makes it challenging.

[Relinquis]

i know sureshs' issue is consistency rather than just power (am i correct?), but this drill has helped me whenever i feel my serve is lacking in power...

Drill

Serve from the service-line instead of the baseline. Really fast serves. Don't hold back.

Don't jump off the ground. Aim to serve really fast serves, really go for it, but make sure you get it inside the box and with good form, apart from not jumping. Do 20 of these. Then go to the baseline and do 20 normal serves, full motion. You should notice that you are able to hit more aggressively.

Try it and let me know what you think. It works for me, i don't know if it is psychological or if it forces me to be looser and hit more freely.

[LeeD]

Well, being about 25 lbs overweight only hurts your game, not your serves, so it shouldn't matter much.
You're as tall as TimLincecum. No excuses.
NicolasAmagro is 2" taller than you, he can hit 135. You should easily hit 100 if you choose to hit a FLAT first serve.
That translates to about 75 for a heavy spin, safely IN, second serve.
Still, we haven't seen a video of your service motion. Are you swinging as fast as you can in a controlled manner? Are you moving into the court as you serve? Do you try to jump up to the ball? Or do you adopt the Nadal/Almagro idea of pinpoint precision without jumping? Either jumping or not jumping easily garners your maximum fastest serves.
You're only asking for a 75mph top/slice serve that goes into either of the 3 quadrants, so it should easily be attainable, although somewhat boring for a 4.0 level player.

[sureshs]

I do not take off with my feet, no. Old style, right foot comes forward. Now, I am not moving it forward during impact, but rather impacting when it is off the ground, and then moving it forward.

And I prefer to think of myself as 20 lbs overweight, not 25. Thanks.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by LeeD

NicolasAmagro is 2" taller than you, he can hit 135. You should easily hit 100 if you choose to hit a FLAT first serve.
That translates to about 75 for a heavy spin, safely IN, second serve.

Cmon Lee, if people actually listen to you they are going to hurt their shoulders (and/or their egos) trying to hit these 100 mph serves that you say are so easy.

They are not easy, flat or not, and many solid rec players never get close to 100 mph. And "75 mph heavy spin safely in" is a 5.0 second serve IMO.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Avles

Cmon Lee, if people actually listen to you they are going to hurt their shoulders (and/or their egos) trying to hit these 100 mph serves that you say are so easy.

They are not easy, flat or not, and many solid rec players never get close to 100 mph. And "75 mph heavy spin safely in" is a 5.0 second serve IMO.

LeeD always needs to be discounted (a lot), as they say in finance.

[LeeD]

Well, if you set your sights as low as possible, your performance will reflect exactly that, won't it?
Hurting shoulder's serving 100mph. Yes, if your ultimate top speed serving is 90, yes yes yes.
Still, we haven't seen the VIDEO of Suresh's motion.
Remember, Almagro and Nadal DO NOT jump very high on most of their serves. Instead, they rely on precision you get from NOT jumping, which means a more solid lower body.
Can Suresh hit serves that bounce IN and then to the backboard around knee to thigh high? Talking warm temps and Wilson or Penn tennis balls.
I'm 2 weeks from 64 and can bounce an IN first serve, using DunlopRocks, in 50 degree air temps, cement courts, around mid thigh high to lower thigh high almost every single IN serve.
And I also don't really jump up. I might rise to my toes, at best.
Let's see some Suresh serves.

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

i know sureshs' issue is consistency rather than just power (am i correct?), but this drill has helped me whenever i feel my serve is lacking in power...

Drill

Serve from the service-line instead of the baseline. Really fast serves. Don't hold back.

Don't jump off the ground. Aim to serve really fast serves, really go for it, but make sure you get it inside the box and with good form, apart from not jumping. Do 20 of these. Then go to the baseline and do 20 normal serves, full motion. You should notice that you are able to hit more aggressively.

Try it and let me know what you think. It works for me, i don't know if it is psychological or if it forces me to be looser and hit more freely.

Why not lift off the ground?

Much of the serve power is coming from the large leg muscle groups.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

Why not lift off the ground?

Much of the serve power is coming from the large leg muscle groups.

I think the rationale for that drill from the service line is to get you to swing freely, understand/feel what it is like to hit hard and in the box, and to appreciate how low the net actually is.

Once you get back to the baseline you lift off if you want, i.e. full service motion whether you use platform stance or pinpoint.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

I think the rationale for that drill from the service line is to get you to swing freely, understand/feel what it is like to hit hard and in the box, and to appreciate how low the net actually is.

Once you get back to the baseline you lift off if you want, i.e. full service motion whether you use platform stance or pinpoint.

i use the drill from the service line to work on some aspects of the technique.
mainly from the trophy position to the contact point.
with some players, if they serve from the baseline they either go for too much or are too tense. both inhibit the learning process
to get them to swing freely, i use the sidefence and let them serve hard against it.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Well, if you set your sights as low as possible, your performance will reflect exactly that, won't it?
Hurting shoulder's serving 100mph. Yes, if your ultimate top speed serving is 90, yes yes yes.
Still, we haven't seen the VIDEO of Suresh's motion.
Remember, Almagro and Nadal DO NOT jump very high on most of their serves. Instead, they rely on precision you get from NOT jumping, which means a more solid lower body.
Can Suresh hit serves that bounce IN and then to the backboard around knee to thigh high? Talking warm temps and Wilson or Penn tennis balls.
I'm 2 weeks from 64 and can bounce an IN first serve, using DunlopRocks, in 50 degree air temps, cement courts, around mid thigh high to lower thigh high almost every single IN serve.
And I also don't really jump up. I might rise to my toes, at best.
Let's see some Suresh serves.

i can actually understand surehs decision not to post a video. the man has alienated so many posters over the years that it would be a carnage.

Lee, you´re often critizised for claiming to be able to serve at high speeds.
i wonder, have you ever measured your serve speed with a radar gun?
we did that a few years back at our club, and 100mph is a pretty good speed for club players.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

I don't think as much in terms of power, which is a difficult thing to estimate as each phase of the serve occurs. The question of which muscles provide the most 'power' overall to the serve is important but the details are more useful to focus on. I think more in terms of specific joints, attached muscles, velocity and a specific phase of the serve. Most important is the last phase just before impact and its racket head speed. At that time, some muscles have been pre-stretched and are shortening rapidly to act through the hand to give the final racket head speed the instant before impact. Looking back into the earlier serve motion phases in videos, you can clearly identify some of the motions that stretched the specific muscles, for example, lat stretch from leg thrust. There are other motions that involve the trunk and shoulders that probably produce stretch but are more difficult to observe in video and understand. I am now trying to see the supination and pronation earlier in the motion discussed in another thread. [Supination stretches the pronation muscles.]

Term Usage - I am using the term pronation to mean motion in that forearm rotation direction and not joint position. The usage - for position or location - is ambiguous. I have seen forum discussions where one party was talking position and another was talking location. Search - pronation in anatomy usage and usually the word means location and not a rotating motion. On this forum it usually means a rotating motion. The overall arm rotation rate at the wrist is the sum of the internal shoulder rotation and pronation angular rotation rates.

I saw a graph that showed pronation rates: 1)some pronation earlier in the serve motion and 2) a lot of pronation later, after impact, but 3) not very much pronation rotation rate at impact. In video, I can see the large pronation following impact but I can't distinguish the smaller pronation and supination earlier in the motion, too confusing, also elbow and wrist angles are too difficult to see without markers. I believe that both pronation and supination are important. I believe that strong serves probably have little conscious active pronation the instant before impact and give the arm a relaxed feeling. I have hit a very small percent of serves with a 'relaxed' arm and have gotten strong serves doing it. But that is not my normal match serve which has some tightness.

Speculation: In a powerful serve it may be physically impossible for the small pronation muscles to pronate the arm & racket just before impact because the powerful ISR muscles are already angularly accelerating the arm & racket so forcefully. ? Similarly, you can't jump up in a rocket ship accelerating at 4 G's, you would be hard pressed in your seat.

Research: Elliott, I believe, has said that pronation functions to orient the racket face and that ISR provides the largest contribution to racket head speed. I believe that practicing the serve is training including to reproduce a certain degree of pronation for racket face string direction at impact.

Active & Passive Muscle Shortening and Sensations/Feelings - When you walk your muscles are actively and passively shortening to supply forces. I believe that the passive shortening from pre-stretch muscle has little feeling of effort, relaxed. Also, for the active component of muscle shortening, because we are so well trained at walking we don't/hardly consciously/deliberately notice that we are sending nerve impulses (EMG signals) to the legs. If you are trained for the serve do you 'consciously' send nerve signals to muscles, probably not, especially since there are 600 muscles in the body and many are involved in the serve? It would be nice to find some research clarifying the feelings for active and passive muscle shortening. It might explain what a 'relaxed arm' is, what 'muscling the ball' is - in terms of muscle theory passive & active muscle shortening and sensations. When I completely 'relax' my serving arm and don't 'muscle the ball' am I using mostly passive pre-stretched muscle shortening to hit the serve?

yes, i think i get the main points of what you are saying although it´s no easy reading for a non-scientist like myself.
my main concern is always the student, and what i can tell her/him, that can make a difference. sometimes my tips don´t hold up to scientific scrutiny, but i couldn´t care less if they work

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I am not going to warm up or do unrelated drills - already warmed up at home and on the next court. I prefer not to pick up balls, but will do it if you force me to.

Every student and instructor needs to allot some of their lesson time to clear the court for the next student.

Never heard anyone whining about this before.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

Every student and instructor needs to allot some of their lesson time to clear the court for the next student.

Never heard anyone whining about this before.

i have this fantasy: Sureshs meets Oscar Wegner for an hour-long instruction
i would actually pay money to watch the DVD

Oscar: "try to feel the ball with your hands"
sureshs: "don´t i need to supinate my forearm???"

Oscar: "on the serve, try to lead with your hand"
sureshs: "does it help if i stand on my toes???"
(voice from the background: "harder, you have to want to hit harder")

Oscar: "we need to pick the balls up"
sureshs: "not on my time, we don´t"

feel free to run with it

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by President

The serve is the most important shot in the game. BUSTED..at least for amateur players. At the rec level until 5.0 or maybe even 5.5, you are never going to see a really good serve. Yeah if you have a horrendously bad serve it can be a big weakness but against good players I think the amount of free points one can get is vastly overstated for rec players. As long as your serve is serviceable I think time would be better spent working on groundstrokes or specifically returns.

...at the 5.0 and above level, you better have a decent serve, or you're, by definition, not at that level. At all levels, serve is still the most important shot. You're not necessarily looking for freebies, although they are nice, but what you're really trying to do is control the point from the start, and a "good serve" equals consistency, pace, placement, or spin, or better yet, all of the above...

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

Every student and instructor needs to allot some of their lesson time to clear the court for the next student.

Never heard anyone whining about this before.

Originally Posted by treblings

i have this fantasy: Sureshs meets Oscar Wegner for an hour-long instruction
i would actually pay money to watch the DVD

Oscar: "try to feel the ball with your hands"
sureshs: "don´t i need to supinate my forearm???"

Oscar: "on the serve, try to lead with your hand"
sureshs: "does it help if i stand on my toes???"
(voice from the background: "harder, you have to want to hit harder")

Oscar: "we need to pick the balls up"
sureshs: "not on my time, we don´t"

feel free to run with it

Reminds me of the last week of December when I was in Honolulu and took a group clinic. The ball-pick-up situation degenerated pretty fast, with the men trying to avoid it first, then the women, and finally there was one elderly woman doing all the work. It became so bad that the instructor asked us to retrieve the balls after round of feeding, or she wasn't continuing!

What happened to robotic technology and all those promises?

[treblings]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Reminds me of the last week of December when I was in Honolulu and took a group clinic. The ball-pick-up situation degenerated pretty fast, with the men trying to avoid it first, then the women, and finally there was one elderly woman doing all the work. It became so bad that the instructor asked us to retrieve the balls after round of feeding, or she wasn't continuing!

What happened to robotic technology and all those promises?

you let one elderly woman do the work for the whole group???
that is disgusting, shame on you

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by treblings

you let one elderly woman do the work for the whole group???
that is disgusting, shame on you

All of us did it. We vaguely looked the other way, pretending not to understand the difficult task of picking up balls.

Are YOU going to pick up balls when on vacation in Hawaii? I don't think so.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by sureshs

All of us did it. We vaguely looked the other way, pretending not to understand the difficult task of picking up balls.

Are YOU going to pick up balls when on vacation in Hawaii? I don't think so.

hopefully i have better things to do