Marketing: Power vs. Control

[corners]

Originally Posted by JRstriker12

I wonder why Fed and Pete were able to win more grand slams with a real player's sticks?

Um, because they are/were better players.

[JRstriker12]

Originally Posted by corners

Um, because they are/were better players.

Yes. BTW - I never said there was a magic stick.

Look, I liked the PD enough that I bought several of them and played with them for several years. I just prefer how my current sticks feel. The PD are perfectly good sticks.

IMHO, it's easier to start with a stick that plays closer to what you like and fine tune with the string rather than starting with a stick that's not quite what you like and trying to find a string combo to make a large change that makes it play like a stick with completely different characteristics.

[corners]

Originally Posted by JRstriker12

Yes. BTW - I never said there was a magic stick.

Look, I liked the PD enough that I bought several of them and played with them for several years. I just prefer how my current sticks feel. The PD are perfectly good sticks.

IMHO, it's easier to start with a stick that plays closer to what you like and fine tune with the string rather than starting with a stick that's not quite what you like and trying to find a string combo to make a large change that makes it play like a stick with completely different characteristics.

I agree. It's not the stick doesn't matter, my point was just that the "power" element of sticks is mostly marketing and that players shouldn't get sucked into trying to find the racquet with the ideal power level for their game. There really isn't that much difference between racquets in terms of power, until you get into the difference between traditional players' sticks and so-called granny sticks - 115 square-inches with 350 swingweight and super-low static weight. For myself, like you, my favorite racquets fit my game and swing style and, maybe most importantly, feel good. From there, one can fiddle with strings and tensions to try to reach some personal optimum, but there are still always tradeoffs.

[ChadW]

Thanks to all for the input and comments. I have been playing with my Head Youtek Speed MP 16x19s for the last couple years, and have enjoyed them. I've started to think that I'd like to go to a smaller head though, so I'm looking at something in the 95 range.

As luck would have it, I found a Wilson BLX 6.1 95 16x18 (red and black version) at the local used sports equipment store and got it for only $25! It has good heft, and a good feel for my game. I don't see a huge difference in the 95 sq. inches vs my 100 on the Speed MPs, so it could just be that I'm a sucker for the marketing too.

For what it's worth, the BLX 6.1 95 is actually a touch lighter than the Speed MPs that I've added a good bit of lead to. I've got them coming in around 365g but still about 10pts head light.

So, I feel like I can almost play with both and have a similar feel. The open string patterns certainly contribute to that.

All told, I'm thinking it's time to move to the smaller head size (though I'm not exactly sure of the benefits), so I'll be on the lookout for any used BLX 6.1 95s around here on the cheap... (my local tennis shop wanted $130 for a demo that was trashed to h3ll!!)

[anubis]

IMO there's no such thing as a "low powered" racquet. I can hit plenty of shots just as deep with my Prestige as I can with a Babo PD. I also hit plenty of shots way long with "low powered" players sticks.

IMO, the more important things, as already described, are technique and string choice.

I would also add that the string pattern perhaps has more to do with the equation than the stick itself. More open string patterns have a higher trajectory off the stringbed than dense patterns. therefore, it may be a tad easier to hit shots out of bounds with open string patterns, if one still has trouble with producing enough spin to compensate.

[MikeHitsHard93]

Originally Posted by anubis

IMO there's no such thing as a "low powered" racquet. I can hit plenty of shots just as deep with my Prestige as I can with a Babo PD. I also hit plenty of shots way long with "low powered" players sticks.

IMO, the more important things, as already described, are technique and string choice.

I would also add that the string pattern perhaps has more to do with the equation than the stick itself. More open string patterns have a higher trajectory off the stringbed than dense patterns. therefore, it may be a tad easier to hit shots out of bounds with open string patterns, if one still has trouble with producing enough spin to compensate.

I disagree that there's not much difference in power levels. My old XForce DEFINITELY had less power than my PDR

[JRstriker12]

Originally Posted by corners

I agree. It's not the stick doesn't matter, my point was just that the "power" element of sticks is mostly marketing and that players shouldn't get sucked into trying to find the racquet with the ideal power level for their game. There really isn't that much difference between racquets in terms of power, until you get into the difference between traditional players' sticks and so-called granny sticks - 115 square-inches with 350 swingweight and super-low static weight. For myself, like you, my favorite racquets fit my game and swing style and, maybe most importantly, feel good. From there, one can fiddle with strings and tensions to try to reach some personal optimum, but there are still always tradeoffs.

I can agree with that.

[anubis]

Originally Posted by MikeHitsHard93

I disagree that there's not much difference in power levels. My old XForce DEFINITELY had less power than my PDR

Well, i guess what I'm trying to say is, for my game (3.0) I don't have to make any adjustments in my strokes when I play with powerful tweeners nor low-powered players sticks. Both sticks have the same probability of hitting long, hitting wide, and hitting out.

I judge power to be "depth", not speed. I've never measured how "fast" I can hit a ball with either stick. I'm sure there's a possibility that powerful "tweeners" can potentially hit the ball with greater speed than a low-powered player's stick. But that's not my concern, not at the level that I play at.

I personally use "player's" sticks because they are easier on my arm. Sure the babo PD is fun, but it shreds my wrist after a 1 hour hitting session. My Prestige MP doesn't hurt at all, but I find it to be just as powerful, not not more.

[MikeHitsHard93]

Originally Posted by anubis

Well, i guess what I'm trying to say is, for my game (3.0) I don't have to make any adjustments in my strokes when I play with powerful tweeners nor low-powered players sticks. Both sticks have the same probability of hitting long, hitting wide, and hitting out.

I judge power to be "depth", not speed. I've never measured how "fast" I can hit a ball with either stick. I'm sure there's a possibility that powerful "tweeners" can potentially hit the ball with greater speed than a low-powered player's stick. But that's not my concern, not at the level that I play at.

I personally use "player's" sticks because they are easier on my arm. Sure the babo PD is fun, but it shreds my wrist after a 1 hour hitting session. My Prestige MP doesn't hurt at all, but I find it to be just as powerful, not not more.

Really good points here. But once you start to get better you will start to notice how much some frames and strings impact your game. Trust me, there's huge differences depending on the situation.

[corners]

Originally Posted by anubis

IMO there's no such thing as a "low powered" racquet. I can hit plenty of shots just as deep with my Prestige as I can with a Babo PD. I also hit plenty of shots way long with "low powered" players sticks.

IMO, the more important things, as already described, are technique and string choice.

I would also add that the string pattern perhaps has more to do with the equation than the stick itself. More open string patterns have a higher trajectory off the stringbed than dense patterns. therefore, it may be a tad easier to hit shots out of bounds with open string patterns, if one still has trouble with producing enough spin to compensate.

Yeah, I'm leaning toward rebound trajectory differences explaining most of players' perceptions of power. And then, regarding string pattern, the topspin player likes the open pattern and its high rebound angle because he's bringing the ball down with spin anyway, while the flat ball guy likes the closed pattern because the low rebound trajectory doesn't require him to apply any extra spin.

[corners]

Originally Posted by anubis

Well, i guess what I'm trying to say is, for my game (3.0) I don't have to make any adjustments in my strokes when I play with powerful tweeners nor low-powered players sticks. Both sticks have the same probability of hitting long, hitting wide, and hitting out.

I judge power to be "depth", not speed. I've never measured how "fast" I can hit a ball with either stick. I'm sure there's a possibility that powerful "tweeners" can potentially hit the ball with greater speed than a low-powered player's stick. But that's not my concern, not at the level that I play at.

I personally use "player's" sticks because they are easier on my arm. Sure the babo PD is fun, but it shreds my wrist after a 1 hour hitting session. My Prestige MP doesn't hurt at all, but I find it to be just as powerful, not not more.

I think you're right about "power" being more about depth than speed. Lab evidence shows that the most "powerful" tweeners only offer about 2 extra mph, at that's only on impacts toward the tip of the stringbed. Those tweeners, having open patterns and relatively low swingweights, will launch the ball on a higher trajectory than a higher-swingweight players' racquet, so they will naturally produce more depth. Players grabbing one of these for a quick hit find their shots going long and conclude the thing is a "rocket launcher", but had they stuck it out for an hour they would naturally adjust to the trajectory either by hitting with more spin or flattening their swing a little to lower the launch angle. I would actually prefer if this were not the case. I want a rocket launcher because I know that with enough spin I can harness any extra mph I'm getting out of the racquet. But I haven't found any, except for the granny sticks, which really are more powerful but lack control.

[anubis]

Originally Posted by MikeHitsHard93

Really good points here. But once you start to get better you will start to notice how much some frames and strings impact your game. Trust me, there's huge differences depending on the situation.

Thanks. So, what would you say a Babolat PD or APD can "impact" a game, for a more advanced player, more so than a soft players stick such as a Prestige?

[Larrysümmers]

^its all about what you like. i myself find it easier to harness the power of the PDlike rackets than to hit out with the prestige.

[MikeHitsHard93]

Originally Posted by anubis

Thanks. So, what would you say a Babolat PD or APD can "impact" a game, for a more advanced player, more so than a soft players stick such as a Prestige?

Since these rackets have a slightly larger head and more open pattern than most players frames, they are going to hit a much more loopy ball in contrast to a more penetrating shot that a prestige pro produces. Flex also has a huge impact on how a racket feels and performs. Nothing is better than anything else, just different, which has been reiterated by many people that have tested numerous rackets, myself being one of them.

Not knocking any 3.0 players or your skill level, but many people at that level don't hit hard enough to tell a difference. It's the same as being able to make a serve kick because you hit enough slice or top on it.

[RackofSlamb]

I hold the belief that the racquet can ultimately have a difference in the game if you are comparing extremely outdated racquets to modern ones. For instance, I don't think it would matter to a pro which brand of racquet they were to play right now, they would still play amazing, but I think using a wooden racquet might affect their game, not by much, but definitely tell a difference. I don't think that I, personally, am good enough to be able to tell whether one racquet plays differently from another. I think the most important things affecting my game, equipment-wise, are probably my shoes and my string tension. Doens't even really matter to me what string I am using, as long as it is strung at a good tension. but that's just my opinion

[db10s]

Originally Posted by MikeHitsHard93

Really good points here. But once you start to get better you will start to notice how much some frames and strings impact your game. Trust me, there's huge differences depending on the situation.

Agreed. I think the fact that he is a 3.0 contributes to racket inexperience.... Just sayin'...

Edit: I should've scrolled all the way down and seen that you said something similar.

[UCSF2012]

To be honest, I've never seen a racquet commercial in TV. Occasionally, I'd youtube an advertisement just for kicks, mostly to see Djokovic mock Sharapova. But I don't know, but I don't think there's much marketing going on in reality. Most of it's you guys rambling on about racquet specs and how "plush" a certain frame is.

Personally, I think it's you guys that do the real marketing.

[db10s]

Originally Posted by UCSF2012

To be honest, I've never seen a racquet commercial in TV. Occasionally, I'd youtube an advertisement just for kicks, mostly to see Djokovic mock Sharapova. But I don't know, but I don't think there's much marketing going on in reality. Most of it's you guys rambling on about racquet specs and how "plush" a certain frame is.

Personally, I think it's you guys that do the real marketing.

I've seen my fair share of Wilson Nishikori ads on Tennis Channel.

[JRstriker12]

Originally Posted by UCSF2012

To be honest, I've never seen a racquet commercial in TV. Occasionally, I'd youtube an advertisement just for kicks, mostly to see Djokovic mock Sharapova. But I don't know, but I don't think there's much marketing going on in reality. Most of it's you guys rambling on about racquet specs and how "plush" a certain frame is.

Personally, I think it's you guys that do the real marketing.

Plenty of Head ads with Djoker and Shriek-pova. But tennis is a sort of a niche sport in comparison to other sports in the US so you won't see a tennis ad in the superbowl right now, but they do target ads to magazines, websites, etc that are very likely to appeal to tennis fans who play.

[ChadW]

Originally Posted by UCSF2012

To be honest, I've never seen a racquet commercial in TV. Occasionally, I'd youtube an advertisement just for kicks, mostly to see Djokovic mock Sharapova. But I don't know, but I don't think there's much marketing going on in reality. Most of it's you guys rambling on about racquet specs and how "plush" a certain frame is.

Personally, I think it's you guys that do the real marketing.

There's plenty of marketing going on directed specifically at the tennis-playing community (during aired tournaments, or constantly on the Tennis Channel).

But the real marketing that I was initially referring to is the blurb that exists about every racquet on it's purchase page on TW, or any other tennis equipment site. The manufacturers all brag about their newest technology (which we're supposed to believe makes a 12 month old racquet obsolete), string set up, etc. And nearly all of those (marketing) blurbs include something to this effect: this racquet is the perfect blend of power and control.

Well, that blend is such a wide spectrum that it can't be true for every racquet, for every player.

My wish is that they'd be more clear about which racquets are control-oriented and which are power sticks. But then they'd be denying their life-blood; which, as stated earlier, is to get me to think I need to buy a new racquet all the time in order to solve problems in my game.

*rant complete*