Is Doping really the only way...........

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by nikdom

What you call "known for a long time" in the second bolded part, at the end of the day was nothing more than a lot of - speculation! There were no failed tests, no evidence other than hearsay and "he said, she said" attributed to jealousy. In fact, most of what the French cyclists were complaining about was dismissed as pure jealousy and hatred.

Today it seems everyone wants to forget all the denial, character assassination of doping accusers and call it "known for a long time". In fact, until Lance himself did not make the Oprah appearance, people were still not willing to believe the USADA! Imagine that, people accusing their country's own agency of constructing a false case against Armstrong.

Yes, I agree there are no personal accounts in tennis like the teammates who ratted out Lance, but then it's not necessary doping has to be committed with the same brazenness that Lance did (risking too much by involving a lot of people then threatening retribution) for folks to have doubts.

You're wrong. There were plenty of lawsuits against the outspoken and firsthand accounts of rampant doping dating back to the 90's.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

I do..

These guys do it year after year, tournament after tournament round after round . All year long. With very little of a break.

How the hell can they do it without "help?" Or without totally breaking down physically at some point? (Nadal did of course but he had had physical issues before he event began his tennis career)

They can play a 5-6 hour match and the next or two, its like they didn't have a 5-6 match a day or two before. Well if you're "normal" and not on something, you're gonna really feel that 5-6 hour match a day or two later. I dont care who you are. And you're level is going to be down quite a bit. Especially when 90 percent is consistent of 20-30 shot rallies

Your viewpoint on this subject is spectacularly stupid.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by Elite

See, I, personally, will never know this for sure. I don't play tennis on a professional level and I sure as hell haven't played a competitive five set match before. HOWEVER, it certainly takes something remarkable to naturally recover after such a match. Then again, my knowledge on recovering techniques and whatnot is rather slim.

Very intelligent comment and perception. The fitness, diet and mental approach to the game has evolved drastically. Those are the main contributors to the extraordinary physical feats we see in Tennis today. They still pale in comparison to the physical ability required to win one Tour De France.

[librarysteg]

I wonder if the press is going to start hounding players and questioning their recovery routines non-stop now? I don't think Djokovic seemed overly annoyed or defensive in his last press conference, but if it becomes a running theme at all of them, I'm afraid he'll start to get pretty snippy which will then be taken as more evidence for those who are sure he's guilty.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by jman32

For what it is worth, I know a coach that teaches at a very high level. I was just having this same can conversation with him. He was positive that pros today have no choice but to take drugs if they want to perform at the highest level match after match.

Take djok's five setter with Stan, is it possible to not be wiped out from that for several days, let alone being able to play tennis at the highest level

While i want to believe that they are superhuman, I have to agree, they must all be on something.

It's interesting that because you can't relate to a subject that there has to be a conspiracy. What if I told you that on one occasion I played two 2 hour matches in a day at D1 college level on a 100 dg day and did the same on the following day? Are you saying that I was doping as well? How did I do it?

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by nikdom

If it weren't for the doubts and speculation, Lance would never have been investigated, would he?

It's healthy to keep a critical eye on amazing feats of physical recovery and comebacks. Unfortunately we live in a world where it's happened time and again that those we called superhuman turned out to be mere greedy humans.

Doubts and speculation didn't do squat to Lance. The doubts and speculation was formed out of multiple firsthand accounts and indictments/subpoenas of doctors. There is no such smoking gun in tennis, yet people seem to claim there is purely on physical performance. Not one firsthand account, not one doctor, not one ex coach, not one ex supplier, not one ex gf not one indictment, and a few failed tests by suspected dopers who weren't even relevant in the rankings.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by R.Federer

sorry but what i said was suppose to be just abit of fun and i agree with you ferrer has improved over the years im just fed up of the doping ideas on this board that come up daily now since the lance incident and if anyone does something amazing its automatically because of doping and not hard work, and ferrer is a top player and is a lesson to everyone if your work hard you get rewarded

Exactly. Only an infantile mind sees doping as the only way a physical feat of significance can be achieved.

[darrinbaker00]

Originally Posted by nikdom

Whats your point? There was very little going on in the case of Marion Jones. If it weren't for the Balco investigation, she would never have been caught.

Your pov is simply colored by the accusations against Nadal.

I disagree with you about Marion Jones. Everyone she trained with and/or slept with was dirty, so it was only a matter of time before she got caught.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by Crisstti

There was a lot more to go by in order to have any doubts in cycling than there's in tennis.

Exactly........

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by dyldore

Ok...so there should be investigations into Nadal/Djokovic/whoever, looking for whether or not they are doping. Until then we don't know and speculating based on how long they can play tennis is ********.

Agreed 100%. Speculating and accusing of roids based solely on how long they can play tennis is completely ********.

[librarysteg]

Originally Posted by ALL IN

Doubts and speculation didn't do squat to Lance. The doubts and speculation was formed out of multiple firsthand accounts and indictments/subpoenas of doctors. There is no such smoking gun in tennis, yet people seem to claim there is purely on physical performance. Not one firsthand account, not one doctor, not one ex coach, not one ex supplier, not one ex gf not one indictment, and a few failed tests by suspected dopers who weren't even relevant in the rankings.

This is a big part of why I won't let myself get swept up in all of the accusations and speculations. If it were as rampant and obvious as so many here believe it to be, I think something big would have broken by now. I think someone would be talking with more specific accusations based on first-hand observations and not just the generic comments and guesses some players have thrown out in interviews. Who knows, it might be just around the corner, but I'm happy to keep giving the benefit of the doubt until that time.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by Nickzor

I am in no way a pro tennis player, but after almost a decade of playing I can at least say without trying to sound cocky that I am a good player, I can serve like the pros (not as fast but almost as consistent) and have fairly strong groundstrokes.

For what it's worth I play tennis almost all year round, ive spent up to two weeks at a time playing tennis 5 hours a day straight, Most of the time I'll leave home without even eating a thing, just bring a bottle of water, I play with good mates of mine who happen to be extremely good Players, we take turns at serving and play pretty intense rallies with alot of groud covered and crank down big serves for 3-4-5 hours straight with no more then 20 minutes rest the entire time.

I don't go gym, I'm not on some gluten free diet, or any diet for that matter and I'm able to play an entire day without even eaten a thing, and my sessions are quite gruelling, long rallies, alot of miles covered and what not.
I'll play 5 hours one day then do the exact same thing the next, over time your body just gets used to it, to a certain extent though, my legs and body will be sore after 5 hours of tennis, but after all these years I can usually recover in a day or two, and that's without an ice bath lol

From my personal experiences I don't think it's impossible that tennis players aren't doping, these guys are extremely fit, eat healthy and proper and have been playing tennis and training almost all year round since they were teenagers or even younger, Obviously my own experience with playing 5 hour matches back to back is nothing like the actual pro tour but I'm just having my say, that is all~

I've done the same many many times. Over 5 hours of high level tennis for consecutive days. My serves clock at 125 regularly. I was affected most by what I ate and the quality of my sleep than anything. If I slept bad it would be a long day. Sleep good and I can do a week straight of 5 hour matches (exaggeration, but not by much)

[Surecatch]

Originally Posted by ALL IN

To play consecutive long tennis matches? To those that keep bringing up the "doping" argument please take note that we are overwhelmed with speculation and not a single shred of evidence. When you uncover that evidence, please share. Until then, please enjoy what these remarkable athletes are doing give credit to the sacrifice and hard work they put in.
As far as Lance and cycling goes, it has been known for a long time and confirmed with countless firsthand accounts, worldwide, that most of the peloton was doping. I'm surprised there weren't more blowouts from the trail of used needles and syringes left up and down the French roads.

Hundred percent agree. I was saying this in a thread a couple days ago. The implication that it's "obvious" that doping is going on simply because of superior fitness? I'd really prefer to think that they put the work in until there is some actual proof. This is my favorite sport, and when something concrete comes to light, I'll call a spade a spade. But there has been only suspicion based on nothing more than guys improving their fitness as far as I can see.

[zebedee]

No one with sense is saying it's rampant. Pockets of it, no doubt. The Argentinians alone (Chela, Puerta, Hood, Coria, Canas) are proof of that.

All rich sports with weak anti-doping are vulnerable to dopers taking advantage. Why should tennis be regarded differently?

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by ALL IN

There is no such smoking gun in tennis, yet people seem to claim there is purely on physical performance. Not one firsthand account, not one doctor, not one ex coach, not one ex supplier, not one ex gf not one indictment, and a few failed tests by suspected dopers who weren't even relevant in the rankings.

Wait, so Agassi's admission that he correctly tested positive for meth is not a 1st hand account? The fact that it wasn't disclosed by the ATP or investigated further because Agassi wrote out an excuse himself on a legal pad is not a smoking gun? Sharapova's father is 5 foot nothing and her mother is shorter than that and she is 6'2"? Genetics schmetics....it can't be HGH.

Christophe Rochus says in an interview that he's fed up with all the doping and that's not a first hand account? One quick Google search yielded plenty of first hand accounts, here is the article quoted below:

http://www.shrewdtennis.com/christop...ing-in-tennis/

Originally Posted by Christophe Rochus dated 15JAN2013

In an interview with LaLibre published today, he questioned the absences of both Robin Soderling and Rafael Nadal from the sport, implying that doping or a secret doping ban might have caused their respective breaks from tennis. He further claimed that as doping is happening anyway – and the Armstrong case proves that testing is in fact not a conclusive indicator of a clean player – that the legalization of doping might be in the best interest of the sport. A translation of an apparent interview reads as follows.

So mono is now a career ending disease? It apparently is for Robin Soderling who was a top 5 player before developing a case of mono that has kept him off court for over two years now. Robin Soderling was #6 in the world when he contracted "mono".

Boris Becker accused the 'fittest man in tennis' of doping: Thomas Muster. This, after a "miraculous" recovery by Muster from the previous round's match.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, there has been first hand accounts, there have been accusations, and there have been smoking guns. Why is it that the only two players to get banned were low ranked or journeyman players? McEnroe admitted to use, Agassi admitted to use...

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by merwy

This argument is used over and over by people that can't think for themselves. How in the world is a regular person that browses TT going to find evidence that Djokovic is doping? No seriously,try it. Please describe a scenario in which this could happen. You just walk outside and stumble upon Djokovic's diary that he dropped on the sidewalk in which he has written that he has doped?

No, I can't prove sh1t and I don't know anything either, but please don't use that argument to defend players like Djokovic and Nadal, because the things they do are simply inhuman. This "innocent until proven guilty" approach is so naive. I would be more surprised if it turned out they didn't dope than if they did.

And nobody thinks Djokovic's sudden improvement at the start of 2011 is at least a little suspicious? No one? Okay.

Come play me for 5 hours on back to back days and test my blood. I'm past my mid 30's and can still do it. "Inhuman".......gimme a break man. It's impressive, but I've seen many top college players do that repeatedly.

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by heninfan99

ALL IN, I agree with you.

Thanks!

[ALL IN]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Wait, so Agassi's admission that he correctly tested positive for meth is not a 1st hand account? The fact that it wasn't disclosed by the ATP or investigated further because Agassi wrote out an excuse himself on a legal pad is not a smoking gun? Sharapova's father is 5 foot nothing and her mother is shorter than that and she is 6'2"? Genetics schmetics....it can't be HGH. Christophe

Rochus brothers says in an interview that he's fed up with all the doping and that's not a first hand account? One quick Google search yielded plenty of first hand accounts, here is the article quoted below:

http://www.shrewdtennis.com/christop...ing-in-tennis/



So mono is now a career ending disease? It apparently is for Robin Solderling who was a top 5 player before developing a case of mono that has kept him off court for over two years now..

Boris Becker accused the 'fittest man in tennis' of doping: Thomas Muster. This, after a "miraculous" recovery by Muster from the previous round's match.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, there has been first hand accounts, there have been accusations, and there have been smoking guns. Why is it that the only two players to get banned were low ranked or journeyman players? McEnroe admitted to use, Agassi admitted to use...

So you consider Meth to be a Performance ENHANCING drug? Let me guess, you also think that the United States Government blew up the World Trade Center..........

Yeah, there's no way Sharapova can be tall as evidence by her short father WOW.........Spectaculary stupid

These so called "first hand accounts" are the same as yours ....speculation by those who don't have what it takes and won't put in the work. They are not accounts of anything other than substance-less speculation. Huge difference from the Tour saga in which there were multiple eyewitness accounts of actual doping. Without that, again, just speculation. So when the world didn't end on December 21,2012 were you shocked?

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by ALL IN

So you consider Meth to be a Performance ENHANCING drug? Let me guess, you also think that the United States Government blew up the World Trade Center..........

Yeah, there's no way Sharapova can be tall as evidence by her short father WOW.........Spectaculary stupid

These so called "first hand accounts" are the same as yours ....speculation by those who don't have what it takes and won't put in the work. They are not accounts of anything other than substance-less speculation. Huge difference from the Tour saga in which there were multiple eyewitness accounts of actual doping. Without that, again, just speculation. So when the world didn't end on December 21,2012 were you shocked?

Christophe Rochus didn't have what it takes? Didn't put in the work? He's 5'5" tall and he was top 100. What are you? He's so adamant, that in the article you failed to even read, he's called for legalization of it because it is so rampant.

Yannick Noah, French Open winner and former top 4 in the world didn't put in the work and have what it takes? He's accused the Spanish of doping. He bases it on his experience in the ATP.

So, sorry, but between some 3.0 momo who's "all in" on an internet message board and former ATP player who actually have what it takes and have been there, I'll take their word for it.

[nikdom]

Originally Posted by ALL IN

Doubts and speculation didn't do squat to Lance. The doubts and speculation was formed out of multiple firsthand accounts and indictments/subpoenas of doctors. There is no such smoking gun in tennis, yet people seem to claim there is purely on physical performance. Not one firsthand account, not one doctor, not one ex coach, not one ex supplier, not one ex gf not one indictment, and a few failed tests by suspected dopers who weren't even relevant in the rankings.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9816922/Spain-accused-of-a-doping-cover-up-as-doctor-implicated-in-cyclings-Operation-Puerto-scandal-goes-on-trial.html