Azarenka cheated against Stephens?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by dafinch

I interpret the above as follows: you're allowed 2 MTOs, 3 minutes apiece, so, how that morphs into 10 minutes is unclear. Furthermore, "trouble breathing" and "rib cage problems" that are never heard about again, would strike the majority of people as being sketchy, IMO-and, btw, what were the TWO "injuries," since you cannot get 2 timeouts for the same injury? Part of all of this is that, you tend to NOT get the benefit of he doubt when you have a dubious history, something many fans of Nadal seem to have difficulty in understanding, and Vika is very quickly acquiring exactly such a reputation, i.e., her dust up with Rad and the fact that more than one prominent tennis person believes her shrieking is cheating.

Regarding the bolded part:
Read my previous post regarding Medical Evaluation. You are allowed "reasonable time" for medical evaluation. So, time to walk off court, time for medical evaluation, time for the trainer to get ready to treat, time for 2 3 minute medical timeouts can easily morph into 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, as there are no cameras in the off court medical area, the public does not get to see what she is being treated for. The broadcasters said right away that there was an injury treated in her knee and one in her back. That information comes directly from the trainer just as she finishes.

Yes Azarenka said it was a rib, or breathing, or knee, or back or whatever she said. I'm not saying that I believe it was legit necessarily, and I have said this multiple times that I think it was most likely a BS medical situation by her. However, there is definitely a language barrier between Azarenka and the interviewers, as English is not her first language, so who knows exactly. But the trainer is not going to let her take a medical timeout for "mental struggles" or anything like that. If the trainer diagnoses 2 treatable medical conditions, she can take 2 consecutive medical timeouts.

[darrinbaker00]

Originally Posted by dafinch

I interpret the above as follows: you're allowed 2 MTOs, 3 minutes apiece, so, how that morphs into 10 minutes is unclear. Furthermore, "trouble breathing" and "rib cage problems" that are never heard about again, would strike the majority of people as being sketchy, IMO-and, btw, what were the TWO "injuries," since you cannot get 2 timeouts for the same injury? Part of all of this is that, you tend to NOT get the benefit of he doubt when you have a dubious history, something many fans of Nadal seem to have difficulty in understanding, and Vika is very quickly acquiring exactly such a reputation, i.e., her dust up with Rad and the fact that more than one prominent tennis person believes her shrieking is cheating.

Six minutes for the medical treatment, four minutes to put her clothes back on and walk back to the court. What's not clear about that?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by darrinbaker00

Six minutes for the medical treatment, four minutes to put her clothes back on and walk back to the court. What's not clear about that?

Yep, and time for Azarenka to get re-dressed too!

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Regarding the bolded part:
Read my previous post regarding Medical Evaluation. You are allowed "reasonable time" for medical evaluation. So, time to walk off court, time for medical evaluation, time for the trainer to get ready to treat, time for 2 3 minute medical timeouts can easily morph into 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, as there are no cameras in the off court medical area, the public does not get to see what she is being treated for. The broadcasters said right away that there was an injury treated in her knee and one in her back. That information comes directly from the trainer just as she finishes.

Yes Azarenka said it was a rib, or breathing, or knee, or back or whatever she said. I'm not saying that I believe it was legit necessarily, and I have said this multiple times that I think it was most likely a BS medical situation by her. However, there is definitely a language barrier between Azarenka and the interviewers, as English is not her first language, so who knows exactly. But the trainer is not going to let her take a medical timeout for "mental struggles" or anything like that. If the trainer diagnoses 2 treatable medical conditions, she can take 2 consecutive medical timeouts.

She has lived in the US since, what, 16? The "no speak-ee English" card is weak, particularly when we heard 3 stories in about an hour and a half. You say "if" the trainer diagnoses 2 treatable medical conditions, do we know what those 2 conditions were, as opposed to her rambling, changing-by-the-hour declaration.

The "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin" and "If the official allows it, it wasn't illegal" attitude is, unfortunately, all too common nowadays, and, IMO, is very revealing. About the only good to come from all of this is that Vika is likely to be under very close scrutiny from now on.

[darrinbaker00]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Yep, and time for Azarenka to get re-dressed too!

As an official, you know better than anyone else here that players use the rules to their advantage whenever possible. They'll use a challenge on an obvious out ball to gain extra rest between points. They'll use a bathroom break after getting smoked 6-1 or 6-2 to stop their opponent's momentum. Heck, John McEnroe picked fights with umpires to gain an advantage. As long as the rules allow for wiggle room, the players will use that wiggle room.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by dafinch

She has lived in the US since, what, 16? The "no speak-ee English" card is weak, particularly when we heard 3 stories in about an hour and a half. You say "if" the trainer diagnoses 2 treatable medical conditions, do we know what those 2 conditions were, as opposed to her rambling, changing-by-the-hour declaration.

The "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin" and "If the official allows it, it wasn't illegal" attitude is, unfortunately, all too common nowadays, and, IMO, is very revealing. About the only good to come from all of this is that Vika is likely to be under very close scrutiny from now on.

I already said that there are no cameras, but the info that the broadcasters got from the trainer immediately after the MTO's was that it was a back condition and a knee condition that was treated.

And, yes, there can still be language barriers for someone that has lived in the US for an extended part of time. If you find it necessary to not be reasonable, there is nothing I can do to help you there.

I also said that I don't necessarily buy the fact that they were legit injuries either, but it's hard for the trainer to determine if someone was lying.

The trainer determined that there were 2 treatable conditions that warranted consecutive medical timeouts.

IT'S OVER NOW. It's getting close to a week that it's over now. I've pointed out the legality of 2 medical timeouts consecutively, and that your interpretation is wrong. What can be done about it now? LOL

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by darrinbaker00

As an official, you know better than anyone else here that players use the rules to their advantage whenever possible. They'll use a challenge on an obvious out ball to gain extra rest between points. They'll use a bathroom break after getting smoked 6-1 or 6-2 to stop their opponent's momentum. Heck, John McEnroe picked fights with umpires to gain an advantage. As long as the rules allow for wiggle room, the players will use that wiggle room.

Absolutely. There's never going to be a perfect system to make it so that everyone does everything 100% morally and ethically. The rules are there to limit the gamesmanship as much as possible. There are always going to be people that stretch the rules like a rubber band to the point of almost breaking, but they stay within the letter of the law.

[darrinbaker00]

Originally Posted by dafinch

She has lived in the US since, what, 16? The "no speak-ee English" card is weak, particularly when we heard 3 stories in about an hour and a half. You say "if" the trainer diagnoses 2 treatable medical conditions, do we know what those 2 conditions were, as opposed to her rambling, changing-by-the-hour declaration.

One for the knee and one for the back, as Woodrow stated in the post you quoted.

The "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin" and "If the official allows it, it wasn't illegal" attitude is, unfortunately, all too common nowadays, and, IMO, is very revealing. About the only good to come from all of this is that Vika is likely to be under very close scrutiny from now on.

Unfortunately, Azarenka didn't cheat in this instance. If you're saying that Azarenka was cheating, then you're also saying that the doctor and trainer who evaluated her were in on it. I sincerely doubt they would risk their jobs for any player.

[Overdrive]

Guys, can we please put this thread to rest?

The Open is over. Azarenka won regardless if you agree or not that she cheated. If you don't want like her (like me) don't watch the matches. Remember, the ITF isn't going to do anything about it, so if she does it again, the same people her on TT are going to jump on her again..

Beating a dead horse here...

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Ok. My move. I like it when it's my move. You're picking the wrong poster to get into an argument over what the rules are, by the way. LOL. But I will make sure I highlight all of the relevant parts, so you can skim through and find out where you are wrong. My recommendation, is that people actually research the rules themselves, or ask someone who knows the rules, before reading it from an article that is usually written by someone that doesn't know anything about tennis, or written by someone who thinks that the WTA, ATP and ITF Grand Slam rules all apply interchangably, or are just clueless in general (but I'm not talking about Bodo, right now). From the 2013 ITF Grand Slam Rulebook:

b.

Medical Evaluation
During the warm-up or the match, the player may request through the
Chair Umpire for the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer to evaluate
him/her during the next change over or set break. Only in the case that
a player develops an acute medical condition that necessitates an
immediate stop in play may the player request through the Chair
Umpire for the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer to evaluate him/her
immediately.

The purpose of the medical evaluation is to determine if the player has
developed a treatable medical condition and, if so, to determine when
medical treatment is warranted. Such evaluation should be performed
within a reasonable length of time, balancing player safety on the one
hand, and continuous play on the other. At the discretion of the
Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer, such evaluation may be performed in
conjunction with the Tournament Doctor, and may be performed offcourt.

c.

Medical Time-Out
A Medical Time-Out is allowed by the Referee in consultation with
the Grand Slam Supervisor or Chair Umpire when the
Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer has evaluated the player and has
determined that additional time for medical treatment is required. The
Medical Time-Out takes place during a change over or set break,
unless the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer determines that the player
has developed an acute medical condition that requires immediate
medical treatment.
The Medical Time-Out begins when the Physiotherapist/Athletic
Trainer is ready to start treatment. At the discretion of the
Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer, treatment during a Medical Time-Out
may take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the
Tournament Doctor. *

The Medical Time-Out is limited to three (3) minutes of treatment.

A player is allowed one (1) Medical Time-Out for each distinct
treatable medical condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness
shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical condition. All
treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as part of a kinetic
chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical

condition.

A total of two (2) consecutive Medical Time-Outs may be allowed by
the Referee in consultation with the Grand Slam Supervisor or Chair
Umpire for the special circumstance in which the
Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer determines that the player has
developed at least two (2) distinct acute and treatable medical
conditions. This may include: a medical illness in conjunction with a
musculoskeletal injury; two or more acute and distinct musculoskeletal
injuries. In such cases, the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer will
perform a medical evaluation for the two or more treatable medical
conditions during a single evaluation, and may then determine that two

consecutive Medical Time-Outs are required.

Thank you for such a timely response which brings this to a deserved end. If you do not mind, this should be reposted in any thread where this foolish "cheating" crap is posted in reference to Azarenka. Its funny how certain TW members want to alter the rules to suit their agenda, when said agenda was D.O.A.

[Tennusdude]

Originally Posted by veroniquem

Given the agitation that this thing triggered on the board, I decided to rewind my taping of the match and watch the relevant parts again.

1- Azarenka did tweak something in her leg during the match. It was plain to see for everyone and Shriver and co commented on it.
2- Aza did have an exchange about breathing difficulties with the trainer and Shriver said that she suspected it was a rib (that was before Aza's own comments on it)
3- The commentators didn't blame Aza at that point (Aza was not breaking any rule, she was entitled to the time out). They even hinted that Aza was rattled and that it was a great opportunity for Stephens.
4- Sloane herself didn't show any annoyance or outrage (that TV cameras captured at least). It was something like 105 degrees out there. The kind of excruciating conditions when a few extra minutes in the shade could be felt as a bit of a relief
5- When play started again (everybody was calm including commentators and players ), there was no distinct difference between this game and Sloane's other service games. Sloane can't have been too traumatized by the break because she had a game point for 5-5. She failed to convert (like she had in numerous previous service games) by hitting a passing shot out.
6- The match ended without incident, players shook hands at the net. Sloane had lost her service game exactly the same way she had lost it the other x times in the match- after having opportunities to win it- and the outcome was not exactly surprising.
7- AFTER Sloane's loss, the American commentators (fishing for excuses) suddenly started making a bigger deal of the injury break.
8- During on court interview, Aza (whose 1st language is not English BTW), to a question about her leaving the court replies she was nervous, couldn't breathe and didn't want to lose the match and fails to mention her leg. And BOOM it's on that basis alone that all hell breaks loose. It is interpreted as a shameless admission of cheating, a bunch of people (who mostly hated Aza beforehand and would pounce on any opportunity to trash her) scream "scandal" and Aza is the biggest monster around since Jack the Ripper.


Excuse me folks but in terms of "storm in a tea cup" this is WAY out there. What did she do??? She took a time out she was allowed to take and she answered a journalist's question awkwardly. That's IT. You want me to give you a list of players who took MTOs (long or short, for reasons obvious or not) during a match in the last few months ? Male or female? Before opponent's serve? Oh no you don't. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened in this match. The most hilarious is that if Sloane had converted that game point for 5-5 and had proceeded to win the set, no one would have given a fig about the MTO. It only mattered because Stephens happened to lose. That shows to what considerable lengths sore losers will go to blame a loss on something else than their fav player's game or lack of.

You left out the very issue that very possibly caused Vika the pet hamster to be out of sorts. It was at least 95 degrees on the court and the commentators had mentioned that several times. Vika never has reacted well to the heat. She fainted on court and had to be taken out in tha wheelchair. So the argument could be made that she lost conditioning due to the heat. Not sure if you are allowed to rest for 10 minutes when you lose conditioning or not. But I am surprised you did not mention the heat factor.

[Tennusdude]

Originally Posted by THUNDERVOLLEY

Thank you for such a timely response which brings this to a deserved end. If you do not mind, this should be reposted in any thread where this foolish "cheating" crap is posted in reference to Azarenka.

Serena Williams threatened to shove a ball down the expletive throat of a lines person. She got defaulted for that and her fans dont blame her in the least. They feel it was warranted since they feel the lines person made a mistake in their eyes. Unfortunately, Serena would have been able to finish the match and possibly would have won the match if she didnt break the rules subsequent to what her fans thought was a missed call.

[Vanhool]

Originally Posted by dafinch

I interpret the above as follows: you're allowed 2 MTOs, 3 minutes apiece, so, how that morphs into 10 minutes is unclear. Furthermore, "trouble breathing" and "rib cage problems" that are never heard about again, would strike the majority of people as being sketchy, IMO-and, btw, what were the TWO "injuries," since you cannot get 2 timeouts for the same injury? Part of all of this is that, you tend to NOT get the benefit of he doubt when you have a dubious history, something many fans of Nadal seem to have difficulty in understanding, and Vika is very quickly acquiring exactly such a reputation, i.e., her dust up with Rad and the fact that more than one prominent tennis person believes her shrieking is cheating.

Jeez it's like you never watched the match AND you can't read. They said that night it was a knee injury and a rib thing. If you've ever had a rib out, you'd know it's hard to breath and easy to fix. And you get evaluation time prior to treatment time. 2 min knee eval + 3 min knee treatment + 2 min rib eval + 3 min rib treatment = 10 minutes.

[veroniquem]

Originally Posted by Tennusdude

You left out the very issue that very possibly caused Vika the pet hamster to be out of sorts. It was at least 95 degrees on the court and the commentators had mentioned that several times. Vika never has reacted well to the heat. She fainted on court and had to be taken out in tha wheelchair. So the argument could be made that she lost conditioning due to the heat. Not sure if you are allowed to rest for 10 minutes when you lose conditioning or not. But I am surprised you did not mention the heat factor.

I mentioned the heat factor in another post of mine on the same subject. Personally, I cannot find anything wrong with taking an MTO for breathing problems. Obviously you can't play tennis if you can't breathe properly. Here you go:

[...] My point was that the reason for the MTO is completely irrelevant in terms of hurting the opponent's rhythm and the worst moment for the MTO to happen is in the middle of the opponent's service game, which is what happened in the final. Big deal. Players have to handle that kind of stuff, it's their job. There is never a case where you could blame the final result on it. The rule says you're allowed an MTO. The rule doesn't say you have to PROVE the MTO was absolutely necessary. And that is not something up to the spectators to determine. If a player went so far as to take an MTO for no reason whatsoever, then it would be up to the doctor, trainer, ump or whatever other official to call it out. It is certainly not up to the spectator to pass that judgement. And regardless of the degree to which the MTO was vital (which is impossible for us to determine), the impact on the opponent is gonna be the same, so the opponent had better be able to cope with it, regardless of the justification for it.
My other point was that they filmed her conversation with the trainer before the time out, so when she said she couldn't breathe, she wasn't making up something after the fact because I can see with my own eyes that's what she told the trainer during the match. To what extent the breathing issues were a serious problem? How should I know? I'm not a doctor/trainer and neither are you but if the AO doctor diagnoses that there is an issue with a rib, I fail to see what kind of insider info a message board poster has to categorically counter that statement. Could the 105 degree temperature have contributed to breathing problems? Maybe not, maybe it was just nerves but nobody can say it would be impossible either.

[darrinbaker00]

Originally Posted by Tennusdude

Serena Williams threatened to shove a ball down the expletive throat of a lines person. She got defaulted for that and her fans dont blame her in the least. They feel it was warranted since they feel the lines person made a mistake in their eyes. Unfortunately, Serena would have been able to finish the match and possibly would have won the match if she didnt break the rules subsequent to what her fans thought was a missed call.

Actually, Serena didn't get defaulted for that. She received a second code violation, which resulted in a point penalty, and since Kim Clijsters had match point at the time, she won the match.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by darrinbaker00

Actually, Serena didn't get defaulted for that. She received a second code violation, which resulted in a point penalty, and since Kim Clijsters had match point at the time, she won the match.

Unfortunately, I've pointed that out 300 times over the last 3 years, and most people don't care to learn the difference.

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by Vanhool

Jeez it's like you never watched the match AND you can't read. They said that night it was a knee injury and a rib thing. If you've ever had a rib out, you'd know it's hard to breath and easy to fix. And you get evaluation time prior to treatment time. 2 min knee eval + 3 min knee treatment + 2 min rib eval + 3 min rib treatment = 10 minutes.

You wanna keep your head buried in the sand-or, in some other hole-you go right ahead. Tennis professionals mentioned in the following article they had NEVER heard of a player getting 2 MTOs back to back for different ailments. Bergeron's quote was similar to mine earlier, and the most damning words came from Vika herself. Whistle past the graveyard all you like, Slick.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/sp...ewanted=1&_r=0

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

I already said that there are no cameras, but the info that the broadcasters got from the trainer immediately after the MTO's was that it was a back condition and a knee condition that was treated.

And, yes, there can still be language barriers for someone that has lived in the US for an extended part of time. If you find it necessary to not be reasonable, there is nothing I can do to help you there.

I also said that I don't necessarily buy the fact that they were legit injuries either, but it's hard for the trainer to determine if someone was lying.

The trainer determined that there were 2 treatable conditions that warranted consecutive medical timeouts.

IT'S OVER NOW. It's getting close to a week that it's over now. I've pointed out the legality of 2 medical timeouts consecutively, and that your interpretation is wrong. What can be done about it now? LOL

That kind of laissez-faire attitude is EXACTLY why scum Henin and Nadal were illegally coached, openly, and continually. Nadal bragged in his autobiography about being coached during the US Open Final, fer crissakes! Hey, it's no big deal, everybody does it, and, it's hard to stop(which, in the case of illegal coaching, is as untrue as it is irrelevant). So, no, I don't think some of us WILL turn a blind eye just because others don't care about integrity.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by dafinch

You wanna keep your head buried in the sand-or, in some other hole-you go right ahead. Tennis professionals mentioned in the following article they had NEVER heard of a player getting 2 MTOs back to back for different ailments. Bergeron's quote was similar to mine earlier, and the most damning words came from Vika yourself. Whistle past the graveyard all you like, Slick.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/sp...ewanted=1&_r=0

David Nainkin is a former player and current coach. I would hardly call him am expert on the rules.

However, a few hours ago a recently retired ITF Silver Badge chair umpire who has been in the chair for grand slam finals, and has on multiple occasions seen back to bac medical timeouts quoted the rule out of the rulebook. Yet it still seems you don't think it was legal.

Even that same "expert" in the same article said she didn't break the rules, but she bent them. But you didn't read that part did you?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by dafinch

That kind of laissez-faire attitude is EXACTLY why scum Henin and Nadal were illegally coached, openly, and continually. Nadal bragged in his autobiography about being coached during the US Open Final, fer crissakes! Hey, it's no big deal, everybody does it, and, it's hard to stop(which, in the case of illegal coaching, is as untrue as it is irrelevant). So, no, I don't think some of us WILL turn a blind eye just because others don't care about integrity.

How is that even remotely similar? You're just not going to get it.