Vince Spadea's tips on FH and Serve

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I agree with Spadea's assessment. He wasn't saying Novak doesn't hit the ball well, he just thinks his takeback is too big. If I'm teaching someone to play, I'm going to suggest a smaller takeback rather than as big of one as Novak's. But no one is going to claim that it doesn't work for Novak.

The five o'clock take back is the interesting thing in this discussion as well as hitting through the ball on second serves. Spadea doesn't really explain how Sampras and Roddick were able to still get massive spin while hitting through the ball. But Roddick is certainly interesting in that he can bring 110mph and heavy topspin when most other players are only able to hit it about 90mph with equal spin.

Agree about Novak, his form works perfectly for him but it's def not a starting point or something to emulate without solid fundamentals.

Yes both Sampras and Roddick had much bigger second serves than most other pros. Wish he could have explained more on that but I believe what he says about the toss can partly explain. The same toss spot for both first and second serves. Both Sampras and Roddick had very close tosses between first and second serves. This forces the spin generation to be at the tip of the racquet control (pronation and wrist control) instead of different stance and core body control. Their core motions were very close between the first and second serves.

It may not be the safest practices to have aggressive second serve and they both had their shares of double faults on critical points. but definitely their second serves were big part of their exceptional holding percentage.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

No one has argued against forward hitting, you made that up. But it can be combined with up as well as across elements. You know, like Nadal and Federer swiping the ball, remember?

There's still an across element. how else is side spin generated?

[tennis_balla]

Good video. What I find funny and if my memory isn't failing me I remember Oscar Wegner stating how he taught Spadea, and then you hear Vince talk about hitting through so many times.

[rkelley]

You have to hit both through and across if you want to hit big. Those ball won't land in without the topspin. I know for me I'm totally focused on hitting across the ball. With my grip I get all the through that I need. However I think it's different for other people.

Assuming you're starting with a player with reasonably good form, I think you need to assess what the player is already doing well and what elements they're weak on before you can make statements about where they should focus.

[TheCheese]

Spadea is a great player, but I don't think he actually knows what he himself is doing. Good players don't always make good coaches.

[tennis_balla]

He knows a heck of a lot more than an average club pro or a TT poster....or no wait, the TT poster definitely knows more, my bad.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

He knows a heck of a lot more than an average club pro or a TT poster....or no wait, the TT poster definitely knows more, my bad.

I'm sure he does, but he's not the best at articulating it. "Go through the ball" is hardly expert advice.

[sureshs]

Sometimes they know more, sometimes they know less. You have to look at each situation and assess for yourself.

But by and far the best advice has been from coachingmastery with his "keep the plane the same." Most rec players do not do this. They are always trying to make minor adjustments because of lack of confidence in keeping the plane the same.

[TheCheese]

I thought his 2nd serve advice was good.

[sureshs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k40zmz1uvA

For the 2 backhands shown, freeze the frame at contact and mentally note the distance of the impact point (zone) from the back fence. Keep stepping through and see how much the distance increases before it starts decreasing. The confusion is because the path of the contact point an arc. It extends into the forward (x) direction, sideways (y direction) and upwards (z direction). For the entire swing, find the x coordinate at the time it starts decreasing, and subtract the x coordinate at impact. You will see that the former is almost in front of his forehead with hand extended, while the latter is just in front of his hips.

[tennis_balla]

Tennis isn't rocket science. Its a simple game and saying 'go through the ball' is correct. Some might have different ways of explaining this, which you might understand better but thats the trick to teaching. Finding 100 different ways to explain the same thing, because everyone is different and understands differently. However, in the end keep it simple which is what Vince is doing. Even the top coaches on tour aren't having complex explanations, its all very basic terminology.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

He knows a heck of a lot more than an average club pro or a TT poster....or no wait, the TT poster definitely knows more, my bad.

I'm not sure. being able to execute is not the same as knowing it intellectually. I'm not sure whether federer even knows what pronation is.


however Spadea is right. the "through" component is very important. you Need up/across AND through.

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

Tennis isn't rocket science. Its a simple game and saying 'go through the ball' is correct. Some might have different ways of explaining this, which you might understand better but thats the trick to teaching. Finding 100 different ways to explain the same thing, because everyone is different and understands differently. However, in the end keep it simple which is what Vince is doing. Even the top coaches on tour aren't having complex explanations, its all very basic terminology.

Exactly, I see threads in here from rec players who are treating it like rocket science. Worst way to learn a sport.

[tennis_balla]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I'm not sure. being able to execute is not the same as knowing it intellectually. I'm not sure whether federer even knows what pronation is.


however Spadea is right. the "through" component is very important. you Need up/across AND through.

You're joking correct?

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Originally Posted by luvforty

' I don't like Novak's ..... '

I turned it off right there.

See the whole thing, Vince praises Novak's shots including his forehand.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Power Player

Exactly, I see threads in here from rec players who are treating it like rocket science. Worst way to learn a sport.

LOL discussion of technical topics which are beyond your ability does not mean it worsens the way to learn a sport. Read the article by TWU prof today on string displacement in the 99S. It does not mean he should be compared to Nadal who can actually produce great displacements. Just because you are not capable of understanding scientific formulations does not mean others are stupid for being interested in that, or that it somehow takes away from the game in your narrow world view. I see this knee jerk reaction from several pseudo-coaches and players here (none of whom have probably achieved anything) when confronted with facts. On the other hand, real verified coaches like Macci are on TV talking about the use of 3D analysis, and real players like Spadea are referring to slow motion video of Federer to illustrate their points.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

Good video. What I find funny and if my memory isn't failing me I remember Oscar Wegner stating how he taught Spadea, and then you hear Vince talk about hitting through so many times.

And the Williams sisters use long takebacks from before the bounce and even double-pump during the forward swing. That also doesn't add up.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by sureshs

And the Williams sisters use long takebacks from before the bounce and even double-pump during the forward swing. That also doesn't add up.

Not a fan of the long takeback. Most of the guys have more compact takebacks like spadea is talking about. If you look at Serena's takeback it is a little more compact then when she first came on tour. The important part is her Early prep and her long follow through.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I'm not sure. being able to execute is not the same as knowing it intellectually. I'm not sure whether federer even knows what pronation is.

Knowing it so it can be discussed with other people without confusion. This is not the only intellectual thing about understanding. He might use different term for all I know but I guarantee he is fully aware of the minutest movements and control of his forearm and hand.

It's the other way around. We who discuss these things don't understand the minutest movement and control of pronation the way Fed does. We try our best and at the same time try to communicate that with others. But, what's being communicated isn't very clear all the time and can't be executed by ourselves. that's why it's worth going back to whatever these pros are saying since they are closer to the truth of the ability than we are.

[sureshs]

What was great was how Spadea broke up the serve angle in terms of speed and spin, and the racket angle. Racket angle more into the court = more speed, less spin. Racket angle more across the court = less speed, more spin. The guy knows the direct path to explain something which coincides with the reality of how it is done.