Power in topspin serves

[klaw]

I recently changed from hitting inconsistent flat serves to consistent topspin serves. I modelled Sampras' serve. My service action is now pretty similar to Sampras', with similar knee bend, back arch and arm action, but I am unable to generate enough power and accuracy to ace people. I find it harder to place topspin serves than flat serves, even though it's supposed to be the other way around (I think it's because instead of swinging the racquet at my desired location, I have to swing my racquet left to right all the time). And unless it's on the very edge of the service box, it doesn't give me service winners (lack of power). How did Sampras give his topspin serve so much power? And how do you place topspin serves?

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by klaw

I recently changed from hitting inconsistent flat serves to consistent topspin serves. I modelled Sampras' serve. My service action is now pretty similar to Sampras', with similar knee bend, back arch and arm action, but I am unable to generate enough power and accuracy to ace people. I find it harder to place topspin serves than flat serves, even though it's supposed to be the other way around (I think it's because instead of swinging the racquet at my desired location, I have to swing my racquet left to right all the time). And unless it's on the very edge of the service box, it doesn't give me service winners (lack of power). How did Sampras give his topspin serve so much power? And how do you place topspin serves?

Ultimate combination of racquet-specs, racquet-head speed, perfect toss everytime and hours of practice.
Don't forget, we mere mortals don't dedicate our lives to the art of tennis so you'll never hot those heady heights!
Also, how many professional players on the ATP tour ever managed a 1st/2nd serve-speed/placement to equal that of Sampras? No-one.

[klaw]

I know that my serve would never be as good as sampras'... but I want to get enough power and placement on my topspin serves to ace ppl time to time.... and this can be achieved by analysing how sampras puts power and placement into his serve

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by klaw

I know that my serve would never be as good as sampras'... but I want to get enough power and placement on my topspin serves to ace ppl time to time.... and this can be achieved by analysing how sampras puts power and placement into his serve

I'm in a similar position: I can't do a topspin serve with any power to save my life!
However, what I find I can do now, after months of practice is serve a 2nd-serve slice out-wide or down-the-middle to a right hander with not much difference to that of my 1st serve-speed.

I'm currently starting to practice a different toss of the ball, straight in front of me and almost over the top of my head, bending my knees more and trying to hit straight over the ball instead of from bottom-right to top-left (as with my slice). Mentally, I know that if someone like me can make the transition from flat-to-slice, the the flat/slice-to-topsin is also achievable. I just got to practice on my own more...

From what I know, Sampras' racquet mass (a 14oz racquet) and his endless technique-practice coupled with racquet-head speed that enabled him to serve the 100-100mph topsin second serve.

[klaw]

Originally Posted by Galactus

I'm in a similar position: I can't do a topspin serve with any power to save my life!
However, what I find I can do now, after months of practice is serve a 2nd-serve slice out-wide or down-the-middle to a right hander with not much difference to that of my 1st serve-speed.

I'm currently starting to practice a different toss of the ball, straight in front of me and almost over the top of my head, bending my knees more and trying to hit straight over the ball instead of from bottom-right to top-left (as with my slice). Mentally, I know that if someone like me can make the transition from flat-to-slice, the the flat/slice-to-topsin is also achievable. I just got to practice on my own more...

From what I know, Sampras' racquet mass (a 14oz racquet) and his endless technique-practice coupled with racquet-head speed that enabled him to serve the 100-100mph topsin second serve.

But what part of his technique precisely?

[mucat]

Galactus, I always thought sampras's racket is 16oz., just "14oz"? hmm...

klaw, you can try put more forward action into the swing, you will lose some topspin, but you will gain some speed.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by mucat

Galactus, I always thought sampras's racket is 16oz., just "14oz"? hmm...

Mucat - all of his Prostaff 6.0's were customised from the standard off-the-shelf weight of 357g (12.6oz) up to 400g (14.10oz) and re-strung at 75lb
Although I don't know where the extra weight was added to his frames...

[x Southpaw x]

I think it's all about ratios. If you put in more spin, you're going to lose some power. If you put in more power, you're going to lose some spin. For second serve, definitely a lot more spin is better. But if you wanna ace like the op said... use a lot of power and just enough spin to keep the serve a high-percentage serve.

[Koaske]

With a grip between eastern backhand and continental it's easier to do get good topspin , but harder to get power. Switch grip to between continental and eastern forehand to get more power but less topspin. Little topspin is important for consistency.

[Kathy]

The first thing I'd say is that you may be trying too hard to "model" your stroke after Pete's. That's Pete's serve, not yours. Find yours. It's not a fashion to emulate; it's like a statue within you to carve out like a sculptor.

That said, you could hardly find a better serve to study, for there's nothing extraneous in the motion, which is why it's so accurate and reliable.

Do experiment with the placement of the toss. One common problem is not hitting through the ball enough. By that I mean that the server swings up and then lets the racket just fall. So, the swing wimps out at the top. Often you can correct this problem by just tossing more out in front.

What you feel like you're doing and what you actually are doing are often different. So, if you need to try to swing straight up (i.e., from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock) fine. Nobody can actually do that without falling over sideways, but aim for that if that's what works for you.

Slight changes in grip also help. Most people use a Continental for serving. But an Eastern backhand is more flexible. Therefore, players usually get more power with it. So, over time, often check your grip -- very gradually trying to work it around more toward an Eastern backhand. Give it a chance and see if that works for you.

Kathy K
www.operationdoubles.com

[klaw]

Originally Posted by Kathy

The first thing I'd say is that you may be trying too hard to "model" your stroke after Pete's. That's Pete's serve, not yours. Find yours. It's not a fashion to emulate; it's like a statue within you to carve out like a sculptor.

That said, you could hardly find a better serve to study, for there's nothing extraneous in the motion, which is why it's so accurate and reliable.

Do experiment with the placement of the toss. One common problem is not hitting through the ball enough. By that I mean that the server swings up and then lets the racket just fall. So, the swing wimps out at the top. Often you can correct this problem by just tossing more out in front.

What you feel like you're doing and what you actually are doing are often different. So, if you need to try to swing straight up (i.e., from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock) fine. Nobody can actually do that without falling over sideways, but aim for that if that's what works for you.

Slight changes in grip also help. Most people use a Continental for serving. But an Eastern backhand is more flexible. Therefore, players usually get more power with it. So, over time, often check your grip -- very gradually trying to work it around more toward an Eastern backhand. Give it a chance and see if that works for you.

Kathy K
www.operationdoubles.com

Without a coach or experienced tennis player helping you, it is hard to 'find your own serve' without having problems with it. And it is common for people to have very similar serving style, even in the ATP tour. In fact, there are very few people on the ATP which have a truly unique serve.

Swinging from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock is just stupid. It's like a cricket bowl.

I thought it was the other way around with the grips? Eastern backhand = more spin, continental = more power?

[Indiantwist]

Iam not too sure if EasternBackHand offers more POWER than Continental. Sure EBH offers more easier Spin access than Continental. I find Continental to offer the best choice of power/spin combo with addl advantage that if the Return comes too fast at you,you can return it with out change of the grip.

It is my experience that it needs lots of practice to get pace and consistency on serves. Start slowly with less pace (yes they will be returned for winners ..most likely) and then build up.

Power comes from comfort and confidence (besides the technique/practice etc). If one has a comfortable service motion with no jerks and unusual twisting of the body, it is a matter of time before he/she can really crank it up.

[Kathy]

Without a coach or experienced tennis player helping you, it is hard to 'find your own serve' without having problems with it. And it is common for people to have very similar serving style, even in the ATP tour. In fact, there are very few people on the ATP which have a truly unique serve. Swinging from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock is just stupid. It's like a cricket bowl. I thought it was the other way around with the grips? Eastern backhand = more spin, continental = more power?

Gees. Take it easy. What is this? some kind of match play?

No, the Eastern backhand is more flexible = greater wrist-snapping possible = greater power. It helps to understand things like that so you don't have to just memorize what some authority figure carved in stone somewhere.

And no, carving out your own style isn't hard. It's easier than under the eye of some intructors. Not all, but some.

And no, what I said isn't "stupid."

There. I might as well add that left is right and the sky is purple.

In other words, why don't you give a reason for what you say? Why just spout blanket declarations as if God is speaking? Statements like that are invalid as arguments, because you substantiate them with nothing.

And I didn't say to hit from 6 'o clock to 12 o'clock. If you can read, you should read that I said doing so is impossible. So, what's the "stupid" rehtoric for? And how is "stupid" like "a cricket bowl?" That doesn't even make sense.

Disagree all you want, but with reasons and without name-calling. All will enjoy the forum more and get more out of it that way.

Kathy K
www.operationdoubles.com

[Rickson]

The topspin serve isn't meant to ace people, it's used to give the server a high margin for error and a nice kick off the ground. Hit the topspin serve to your opponent's backhand because most players have trouble with high balls on the backhand side.

[ironchef21]

If you're not doing so already, experiment with your toss location. I think if you toss the ball in front of you and follow through your serve into the court you will have more power behind it.

Personally I use my topspin serve to serve into the returner's body for S&V. I rarely get aces from it. My aces come from the slice & flat serve.

[GuyClinch]

Well..

This is an interesting topic. Let me say that if your form is wrong there is alot you can do. I really do think the best way is to have good pro look at your swing in person.

I always had a "slice" serve and it was okay. When I tried to hit my "topspin" serve I always tried to kind of "swing up" more on the ball. This isn't really enough and doesn't give you much "pop"

What my coach had me do is to really concentrate on the pronation. Now it feels like I kind of swing the "other way" when I first make contact with the ball. I am not sure what is REALLY happening because I need to watch film.

But now it feels like I swing more "left to right" on the slice and more right to left on the "topspin" and let me tell you if you time that lightbulb motion right you get alot more power. Yes people say thats "automatic" and it might be for throwing a football but for me and a tennis racquet it wasn't.

As a side note - it kinda ticks me off that after three years of taking lessons now and then one guy can come along at show me something that I was doing totally wrong and almost revolutionize my serve in minutes. My other coaches should have caught this.

Pete

[FiveO]

I agree with most of what was written above. I do feel that, in general, the continental promotes a flatter ball the the eastern bh grip which facilitates easier access to spin. While Sampras' serve has no hitches or extraneous motion it incorporates a huge turn of the shoulders away from the target. A turn which, for mere mortals, can create balance issues which CAN lead to loss of racquet speed, inaccurate swing paths and imprecise contact points. It is a good model, but not as simple as others. And, as Kathy suggests, your serve is your own. Your body, your lever length, your flexibilty, your strength and your sense of timing. As another poster suggested, there are commonalities througout all good serves. Properly identifying and, more importantly, UNDERSTANDING, those commonalities will allow you to bring them to your own motion, within your physical and perceptual abilities.

The knee bend, for example, CAN add to overall racquet speed and potential power in the serve, BUT even if performed perfectly adds only a small percentage of overall speed and power. Done incorrectly or badly timed or too deeply and it can detract from serve speed/power.

In my experience emphasizing an athletic stance in the set-up, hip-stretch, body bow in the loading or trophy phase will generally cause the proper knee bend for YOUR body naturally, instead of possibly comprimising balance and timing by artificially trying to achieve the same "x" number of degrees angle between upper and lower legs at pre-launch that Sampras does. Also thinking legs, when your attention should be directed up toward swing path and contact can be counter-productive.

IMO pay attention to what's most important for now. Firstly a relaxed hitting arm. Ensure that you are achieving maximum racquet head speed in the zone immediately prior to, at AND through contact in your swing path up, out and forward. Do a "whoosh" check without the ball. Go through your motion w/o a ball. LISTEN for the whoosh of the racquet ripping through the air. LISTEN carefully for when that whoosh occurs. It should be happening in that optimal contact zone. Not before. Not after. If it happens too early or too late you're losing speed where you need it.

Work on specific contact points. This will require keeping your head up and seeing the blur of the racquet pass through ball contact. Also don't merely think of hitting the ball. Be more precise than that. Pick the specific point on the ball you wish to contact. Imagine the ball is like a spherical cut diamond with multiple facets on it. In practice pick the particular facet you wish to contact to achieve a certain result in combination with swing path. Experiment with it in practice and see what result you can achieve. A by product of this attention to specific contact points will be cleaner contact overall. You'll also see that slight variations in the facet contacted will yield larger directional/spin/accuracy variances on the other side of the net.

All that being said, IT IS difficult to achieve w/o seeing or having a trained eye watching what you are doing. What you feel is not necessarily what you get. If you can't work with a qualified teaching pro get out the video cam and tape your practice sessions. Even better, have a friend tape your match-play, because practice strokes can vary significantly from match strokes in some players. See the commonalities of your serve vs. the commonalities of the pros. Don't try to look like Sampras (or any other pro) per se. Effort hitting the common elements and check-points that the pros achieve from hit to hit instead.

Good luck.

[federerer]

First of all, I don't think Sampras has the "perfect" motion (at least for regular players). His racket arm lags which would cause a regular person to have difficulty timing the serve and his shoulder turn is excessive which a regular person probably isn't able to emulate. He does has the smoothest motion and his nkage throughout the kinetic chain is perfect.

In regards to your problem, I've had the same exact situation. I copied sampras's serve using video and tried to emulate but I've since changed my style. Anyways, what I'd suggest is the following:

1. try getting your momentum going forward. The deep knee bend begins the kinetic chain from ground to ball, but if you are going straight up you will just get a ton of spin. You need to be moving into the court (but still upwards (imagine a shot-putter)). If you don't serve and volley then you should try it just to get the feeling of your weight going forward.

2. toss the ball a bit more in front (to facilitate 1)

3. pronate more. This will not add a tremendous amount of power because the wrists are small muscles, but with your weight now going more forward as opposed to straight upwards, the pronation will give you more spin.

4. give up the idea of acing people - service winners are just as good. besides, there are hardly even any pros that ace with a top spin serve. You must remember that Sampras was arguable the best pure athlete that ever played pro tennis. he was 6'1 and could dunk. He honed his service motion since age 5 or whatever. This doesn't even factor in his pin point accuracy and unparalleled disguise.

[mucat]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Mucat - all of his Prostaff 6.0's were customised from the standard off-the-shelf weight of 357g (12.6oz) up to 400g (14.10oz) and re-strung at 75lb
Although I don't know where the extra weight was added to his frames...

Well, He is not as good as I think then...

[Indiantwist]

Originally Posted by mucat

Well, He is not as good as I think then...

yes. He is not as good as we think. He is far better!

As was mentioned by another poster, Even after so many So called "advances" in the racquet Technologies, Better coaching, Better High speed video analysis and etc, We are yet to have another player who has as good as serve as Pistol Pete.