Moonballers are out - Short, Low pushers are in...

[Venetian]

Originally Posted by North

It sounded like the OP was describing a junkballer & those can do OK at fairly high levels of play. Santoro frustrated Safin with crazy spins, short balls, drop shots, etc; it drove Safin crazy.

I can't think of any current players who make a career of junkballs, but there are certainly players who use strategic junkballing in matches. It's not playing dirty, it just takes advantage of a common weakness in a lot of hard-hitting ball bashers by messing with rhythm & timing.

He also said his club is pressuring him to beat these players and "move up a level". That doesn't add up with claims of playing Challenger level events and winning several rounds.

I think it's just another case of someone very young thinking he's much better than he is, and then getting frustrated when someone exposes him.

OP, I think the key for you is just to keep working hard to improve, and as you do (or if you do) you won't be bothered as much by pushers. It's important to come to grips with your real skill level to identify weakness though. Everyone has to start somewhere; and everyone has to deal with pushers on their way to improving.

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by dman72

That's a great point.

Going back a few years I went through a similar situation with another guy I was hitting with on weekends. He was frustrating me to no end with the low slice to backhand junk. I took out the ball machine, worked on low backhands for a few hundred balls, and beat him soundly two times afterwards..now he doesn't call me to play.

How did you practice returning the low slice to your backhand? Slice it back?

I am using a one hand backhand and hitting mostly topspin. Haven't really developed a slice yet.

[Power Player]

Yes you need a slice. It is a very very good shot to have in the arsenal.

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by Venetian

He also said his club is pressuring him to beat these players and "move up a level". That doesn't add up with claims of playing Challenger level events and winning several rounds.

I think it's just another case of someone very young thinking he's much better than he is, and then getting frustrated when someone exposes him.

OP, I think the key for you is just to keep working hard to improve, and as you do (or if you do) you won't be bothered as much by pushers. It's important to come to grips with your real skill level to identify weakness though. Everyone has to start somewhere; and everyone has to deal with pushers on their way to improving.

Santoro was a pusher and took sets off Federer and Sampras, beat Djoker when Djoker was world no. 1 and was 11-0 against Safin. McEnroe pushed and junkballed from the baseline. Canas beat Federer twice in a few weeks pushing.

Pushing works, it's effective right at the very top and if you think you'll reach a level where you won't be beaten by pushers you're deluding yourself.

On synthetic grass it is impossible to hit offensive or even consistent topspin groundstrokes against slices. The ball just rolls along the ground and bounces at ankle height. There's a reason Santoro won Newport so many times. There's a reason continental grip forehands used to rule the day at Wimbledon and McEnroe won 3 Wimbledons.


Do you play on synthetic grass?

[rkelley]

I'm sooo confused . . .

I'm having trouble figuring out what the OP's level is. I googled Australian division 3 and can't find info on it.

Regardless the answer is the same based on what I think is being said: approach on those short balls. Depending on your style and the level you can hit the approach more or less aggressively and/or win at the net. You don't have to always approach deep either - use the whole court. Rip some, slice others, approach deep and short, and even approach cc if the opponent automatically covers the dtl approach.

Of course you have to be able to hit approaches, slices, volleys, and overheads. Aren't short balls what we work for in a rally?

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Venetian]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Santoro was a pusher and took sets off Federer and Sampras, beat Djoker when Djoker was world no. 1 and was 11-0 against Safin. McEnroe pushed and junkballed from the baseline. Canas beat Federer twice in a few weeks pushing.

Pushing works, it's effective right at the very top and if you think you'll reach a level where you won't be beaten by pushers you're deluding yourself.

On synthetic grass it is impossible to hit offensive or even consistent topspin groundstrokes against slices. The ball just rolls along the ground and bounces at ankle height. There's a reason Santoro won Newport so many times. There's a reason continental grip forehands used to rule the day at Wimbledon and McEnroe won 3 Wimbledons.


Do you play on synthetic grass?

Yeah I grew up playing on synthetic grass. The forehand slice was a nice shot to employ because it stayed so low. I get that. I'm just saying the OP needs to come to grips with his real level of play to identify the areas in which he needs to improve. I don't think he's a Challenger level player. I think he's someone new to the game that just needs to focus on playing as much tennis as he can, and he will pretty quickly improve enough that pushers won't be a major issue for him.

But yeah, the rest of the advice being given is good. It's just that if he's really new to the game, he may not even have those shots to employ yet.

[marosmith]

Well everyone loves to get on their high horse when they are on the Internet discussing pushers.

I define a pusher as someone who does not hit actual ground strokes- not as someone who hits variety, such as federer or santoro.

Watch the pros, when one miss hits a ball but it makes it back into play (usually a framed ball that falls short) 70% of the time the pro returns the shot with another miss hit. There is a reason for that. Very few players actually practice miss hit balls. Now the gray area is a pusher who is purposely repeatedly hitting a certain type of ball which appears to be what you are describing.

The only way I can think of fixing that is stop playing with your buddies that actually want to be good tennis players, and who hit real ground strokes, and practice with these degenerate pushers.

Yes, tennis won't be fun anymore, but if competitive tennis is your goal and you need to beat these people I think you have to practice against them. Hitting with real tennis players won't help, nor will hitting with a ball machine because the machine doesn't have a miss hit / junk ball mode.

The only area where I agree with the geniuses in this thread is that an all court game is a necessity and can be improved by playing fake tennis against these disturbed individuals.

For me I play tennis to enjoy it and to get better at ground strokes, so this is how I avoid the problem. But I'm too old to be concerned about competitive tennis at the level you are at.

[Relinquis]

Drop feeding during practice sessions can help you deal with pace-less balls.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by marosmith

Watch the pros, when one miss hits a ball but it makes it back into play (usually a framed ball that falls short) 70% of the time the pro returns the shot with another miss hit. There is a reason for that. Very few players actually practice miss hit balls.

I don't really think that's true. When ball clips the net cord and loses its pace, pros don't usually panic and mishit it--they usually calmly adjust and attack it (assuming they can get to it).

Likewise, a mediocre drop shot usually results in an instant loss of the point at the pro level.

And, when a pro has to scramble and squash-shot a ball just to keep it in play and can't get any pace on the shot, the most common reply from the opponent is a punishing groundstroke, not an error. At least, that's what I see.

So I don't really see the pros having significant trouble with "push" strokes the way you seem to be describing them.

[wanda]

Best way to deal with short junk is to expect a long match. Practice taking the ball as early as you can and hit it as deep into the corners as you can. if you can take the ball in the air even better but dont try to hit too big or go for a winner too soon. These players are expecting you to struggle, get frustrated and make an unforced error. Work the point until you have a good opportunity to hit a shot you can put away.

I used to play quite regularly with this type of player and he always hit junk to my backhand. I'd try everything from running round it, trying to hit a winner, to stepping in and going for drive volleys. My backhand got much better. I've just stopped playing with him though now cos it just wasn't fun!

[TCF]

Ha, I love the thread title. Did not read the responses yet but the OP is 100% dead on right. I have been in the juniors game for 20 years. Back in the day, not that long ago, all the 'pushers' in juniors were mainly moonballers. I mean these kids could rain ball after ball down from the heavens!

But now at the junior tournaments its changed to almost all low, short, spinny pushing. The moonballs are becoming rare but every other kid slaps that ball back low, short, and soft off of both wings.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by TCF

Ha, I love the thread title. Did not read the responses yet but the OP is 100% dead on right. I have been in the juniors game for 20 years. Back in the day, not that long ago, all the 'pushers' in juniors were mainly moonballers. I mean these kids could rain ball after ball down from the heavens!

But now at the junior tournaments its changed to almost all low, short, spinny pushing. The moonballs are becoming rare but every other kid slaps that ball back low, short, and soft off of both wings.

What's the response from the "pushee"? What does a typical point look like?

[marosmith]

Originally Posted by Avles

I don't really think that's true. When ball clips the net cord and loses its pace, pros don't usually panic and mishit it--they usually calmly adjust and attack it (assuming they can get to it).

Likewise, a mediocre drop shot usually results in an instant loss of the point at the pro level.

And, when a pro has to scramble and squash-shot a ball just to keep it in play and can't get any pace on the shot, the most common reply from the opponent is a punishing groundstroke, not an error. At least, that's what I see.

So I don't really see the pros having significant trouble with "push" strokes the way you seem to be describing them.

I'm not referring to a short ball caused by the opponent forcing a short ball and putting it away, I am referring to a miss hit or pure junk ball that can't be read by the opponent or is framed.

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by Venetian

He also said his club is pressuring him to beat these players and "move up a level". That doesn't add up with claims of playing Challenger level events and winning several rounds.

I think it's just another case of someone very young thinking he's much better than he is, and then getting frustrated when someone exposes him.

OP, I think the key for you is just to keep working hard to improve, and as you do (or if you do) you won't be bothered as much by pushers. It's important to come to grips with your real skill level to identify weakness though. Everyone has to start somewhere; and everyone has to deal with pushers on their way to improving.

AMT tournaments have 5,10 and 15 thousand dollar prizes. Then sponsored tournaments like Solinco go into the hundreds of thousands. It was my first tournament. And I made it through the qualifiers and into the 4th round - If you look carefully at the updates, I said that it was exploitation rather than strategy. And they don't particularly single me out with the pushing strategy. They'll do it to eachother - Have ever seen a battle between short and low pushers? Its not pretty and they usually get in screaming arguments and threaten eachother. Like I said, the club was losing money - because of people not wanting to deal with them - So rather than kick out the individuals doing this. They switched from Wilson Australian Open (titanium) to Slazenger to make up for the difference of low bounce and now the games wins are more even distributed.

I do regret posting this thread now. Because who dont even know me are trying to "put me in place" rather than say much constructively.

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by rkelley

I'm sooo confused . . .

I'm having trouble figuring out what the OP's level is. I googled Australian division 3 and can't find info on it.

Regardless the answer is the same based on what I think is being said: approach on those short balls. Depending on your style and the level you can hit the approach more or less aggressively and/or win at the net. You don't have to always approach deep either - use the whole court. Rip some, slice others, approach deep and short, and even approach cc if the opponent automatically covers the dtl approach.

Of course you have to be able to hit approaches, slices, volleys, and overheads. Aren't short balls what we work for in a rally?

Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm not saying I'm the bees knees. But I do work hard and train. And rather than let my rank define me - I entered the qualifiers of 10,000 prize money tournament and made it through to the 4th round. I was astounded how well I did because they were different balls, a higher bounce synthetic grass and much harder more technically correct hitters. So yes, I guess I'm greedy and deluded to want to move up in club level to apply what I'm able to do in tournament level...

Not happy with posting this thread, spent more time defending myself from ignorant attacks rather than getting advice...

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by mikeespinmusic

I'm not saying I'm the bees knees. But I do work hard and train. And rather than let my rank define me - I entered the qualifiers of 10,000 prize money tournament and made it through to the 4th round. I was astounded how well I did because they were different balls, a higher bounce synthetic grass and much harder more technically correct hitters. So yes, I guess I'm greedy and deluded to want to move up in club level to apply what I'm able to do in tournament level...

Not happy with posting this thread, spent more time defending myself from ignorant attacks rather than getting advice...

Actually my mistake writing this. I meant the 4th round of the actual tournament. I made it past the quallies.

[TCF]

Originally Posted by rkelley

What's the response from the "pushee"? What does a typical point look like?

At a Florida level 7, the 'victim' is usually clueless and spends the match running forward after low balls and barely getting the racquet tip on them.

[marosmith]

Originally Posted by mikeespinmusic

I'm not saying I'm the bees knees. But I do work hard and train. And rather than let my rank define me - I entered the qualifiers of 10,000 prize money tournament and made it through to the 4th round. I was astounded how well I did because they were different balls, a higher bounce synthetic grass and much harder more technically correct hitters. So yes, I guess I'm greedy and deluded to want to move up in club level to apply what I'm able to do in tournament level...

Not happy with posting this thread, spent more time defending myself from ignorant attacks rather than getting advice...

Don't feel bad, idiots here really get deluded when talking about pushers. Makes me think maybe a bunch of them are.

[Venetian]

Some of us just value being gracious and humble in losses.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by mikeespinmusic

I'm not saying I'm the bees knees. But I do work hard and train. And rather than let my rank define me - I entered the qualifiers of 10,000 prize money tournament and made it through to the 4th round. I was astounded how well I did because they were different balls, a higher bounce synthetic grass and much harder more technically correct hitters. So yes, I guess I'm greedy and deluded to want to move up in club level to apply what I'm able to do in tournament level...

Not happy with posting this thread, spent more time defending myself from ignorant attacks rather than getting advice...

Hey, I'm a pretty decent player but the most I've ever won in a tournament is a little plant for runners-up in doubles. If you're playing for 10,000 anything then you're probably pretty good.

Don't sweat the snarky posts. It happens. Hopefully you've gotten a little help.

I'm still a bit confused however. Generally aren't short, low balls good? You can come in and approach. You can hit to the corners and set-up yourself up for a volley winner, or hit short and low yourself and see if your opponent wants to go one on one at the net, or go for the drop shot which should be relatively easy to hit from that position. Basically, you can credibly put the ball anywhere in the court - side to side and front to back - and be at the net to volley your opponent's shot if they get to it. That's a lot of ground for them to cover.

You do need a slice off the bh side to get to those balls generally and I like hitting from a continental grip on the fh side for the really short, low balls (generally use a very strong Eastern grip for my standard fh).