Forehand: question on technique.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by chico9166

Lol, whatever. I take it from your failure to address my question, that you have no idea what your talking about.

no. i just have no interest at the moment in making you look silly.
stay on topic and quit while your behind before I change my mind.

[sureshs]

If you consider the very popular semi-open stance forehand, then (for a rightie), the most common finish is that the right foot pivots and rises on its balls, while the left foot moves back, either slightly leaving the ground or by dragging on its toes. In some cases, both feet leave the ground. But the body as a whole does not move forwards - in fact it might move slightly backwards due to the motion of the left foot.

The other way to hit the semi-open forehand is to move the right foot forward along with the ball, and is used less frequently, usually when the player wants to move to the net immediately after the stroke.

So if the body has a whole has not moved forward, how can we say that there is a weight transfer into the ball? It seems to me that the term is a legacy of the closed stance wood racket days, when this forward weight transfer was important to power.

As far as the pace vs spin issue, it seems to be more to do with the swing arc - how much extension into the court vs how much across the body.

[Netspirit]

I am not sure how you can rotate violently in an open-stance forehand and add forward weight transfer to it.

You are either rotating around your right foot, or stepping forward on your left foot (and therefore not rotating much).

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Netspirit

I am not sure how you can rotate violently in an open-stance forehand and add forward weight transfer to it.

You are either rotating around your right foot, or stepping forward on your left foot (and therefore not rotating much).

you don't have to make your whole body go a whole meter forward through the ball to get your weight into it. The ball is small and is long gone while you are still 'transferring your weight forward in a closed stance step in shot.

and you can still make your body go forward while you are rotating. you can push off with a forward slope, not just 'rotating around your foot'.
and you can also go through the ball while rotating, it's just angular but there is still weight transfer if you do it right. your hips and trunk and shoulders can rotate into and through the ball. It feels the same as a closed stance step in weight transfer does. The transfer just happens quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YerH0-8n_0w&t=46s

[sureshs]

So part of the body can be used for the weight transfer

[TheCheese]

I think it's more about being balanced so you can get maximum racket head speed. You definitely don't need to be putting you weight into every shot and falling forward afterwards. Often times, that can be counterproductive unless you're trying to move in. In reality, the best way to achieve maximum racket head speed on a topspin groundstroke is to pull back and to the left on the forehand and the opposite on the backhand.

Originally Posted by Cheetah

you don't have to make your whole body go a whole meter forward through the ball to get your weight into it. The ball is small and is long gone while you are still 'transferring your weight forward in a closed stance step in shot.

and you can still make your body go forward while you are rotating. you can push off with a forward slope, not just 'rotating around your foot'.
and you can also go through the ball while rotating, it's just angular but there is still weight transfer if you do it right. your hips and trunk and shoulders can rotate into and through the ball. It feels the same as a closed stance step in weight transfer does. The transfer just happens quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YerH0-8n_0w&t=46s

Imo, that seems like he's shifting his weight backwards and to the left (on the forehand), as Oscar talks about. Look at his foot position before and after the shot, he's shifted slightly backwards and to the left. I think the key there is that he's balanced.

Originally Posted by Cheetah

no. i just have no interest at the moment in making you look silly.
stay on topic and quit while your behind before I change my mind.

Oh please, we are having a discussion. "Weight shift" has to do with center of mass movement. And in this case, a forward movement. The COM movement is negligible in the case of more open stance permutations.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Imo, that seems like he's shifting his weight backwards and to the left (on the forehand), as Oscar talks about. Look at his foot position before and after the shot, he's shifted slightly backwards and to the left. I think the key there is that he's balanced.

look at his feet and hip position before contact. then pause at contact. then after contact. there is forward movement there. yes he is going to the left. it's angular. he's not shifting weight backwards.

Originally Posted by Cheetah

you don't have to make your whole body go a whole meter forward through the

and you can still make your body go forward while you are rotating. you can push off with a forward slope, not just 'rotating around your foot'.
and you can also go through the ball while rotating, it's just angular but there is still weight transfer if you do it right. your hips and trunk and shoulders can rotate into and through the ball. It feels the same as a closed stance step in weight transfer does. The transfer just happens quicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YerH0-8n_0w&t=46s

Uh no. With a square stance, the weight transfer occurs BEFORE the rotation. We're just talking about an axis of rotation and where it occurs. In a more open stance the axis revolves around a point (COM) closer to the rear foot, and on the square stance more around the left side, or foot, AFTER the weight transfer. (forward linear movement, COM change)

Anyway, if you want to lunge and try and move forward, be my guest. It's effect is minimal. The key is stabilzing the rear leg, and rotating on balance at the correct time.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by chico9166

The COM movement is negligible in the case of more open stance permutations.

no it's not. where did you get that from?

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

look at his feet and hip position before contact. then pause at contact. then after contact. there is forward movement there. yes he is going to the left. it's angular. he's not shifting weight backwards.

Looks like he's shifting weight forwards, then just prior to contact pulling back and to the left to increase his racket acceleration up and across the ball, so I guess we're both right.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Looks like he's shifting weight forwards, then just prior to contact pulling back and to the left to increase his racket acceleration up and across the ball.

what matters is what is going on at contact.
he is shifting to the left during the shot but...

look at his legs. they are bent and behind the ball. during the sequence up to contact he's pushed off and fowward going up and through at contact. his body has risen in a forward direction. contact is made in a square position with his chest facing the net. he is pushing off his toes and his feet are pointed forward at contact. his body has moved forward. not back.
look at his hip postions. it rotates forward and thru during contact. it's not moving back.
look at the shoulder positions. it's behind contact at the start. it moves forward and thru the point of contact.
he has long extension with arm and racquet pointed out forward.
both of his knees have moved forward from the starting position.
This is all weight transfer forward into the ball... while rotating.

Then after contact he continues rotating and spins around. This does not affect the ball.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

what matters is what is going on at contact.
he is shifting to the left during the shot but...

look at his legs. they are bent and behind the ball. during the sequence up to contact he's pushed off and fowward going up and through at contact. his body has risen in a forward direction. contact is made in a square position with his chest facing the net. he is pushing off his toes and his feet are pointed forward at contact. his body has moved forward. not back.
look at his hip postions. it rotates forward and thru during contact. it's not moving back.
look at the shoulder positions. it's behind contact at the start. it moves forward and thru the point of contact.
he has long extension with arm and racquet pointed out forward.
both of his knees have moved forward from the starting position.
This is all weight transfer forward into the ball... while rotating.

Then after contact he continues rotating and spins around. This does not affect the ball.

Yes, starting just before contact he starts going back and to the left.

It does make a difference, it's the best way to get maximum racket head acceleration up and across the ball. I'm not denying he is shifting his weight forward, but just before contact he's pulling back and to the left so he can get the most racket head speed possible. If he was to go straight through the ball afterwards his shot wouldn't have as much spin. I'm sure you've noticed this when you're playing.

[Cheetah]

Yes, starting just before contact he starts going back and to the left.

It does make a difference, it's the best way to get maximum racket head acceleration up and across the ball. I'm not denying he is shifting his weight forward, but just before contact he's pulling back and to the left so he can get the most racket head speed possible. If he was to go straight through the ball afterwards his shot wouldn't have as much spin. I'm sure you've noticed this when you're playing.

where do you see evidence of him going back? what are you looking at?
if his feet, legs, hips and shoulders are in a more forward position at contact then in prep how is that moving back?
he's pushing off his toes and his foot is pointed forward and has moved forward. how do you move back like that?

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

where do you see evidence of him going back? what are you looking at?
if his feet, legs, hips and shoulders are in a more forward position at contact then in prep how is that moving back?
he's pushing off his toes and his foot is pointed forward and has moved forward. how do you move back like that?

His ending position is back and to the left relative to his position at contact.

[Cheetah]

it's not back. it's more forward than when he started.
just his shoulders have rotated around so his chest is facing to the sidefence at the end. where else can they face if you continue rotation?

also look at the forward angle of his whole body from his feet to his head. he's leaning forward.

if you mark the positions of his feet in the original video they both have moved forward and to the left. they are in a more forward position then when he was in prep. he has moved his mass forward during the shot. (and to the left)

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

it's not back. it's more forward than when he started.
just his shoulders have rotated around so his chest is facing to the sidefence at the end. where else can they face if you continue rotation?

also look at the forward angle of his whole body from his feet to his head. he's leaning forward.

if you mark the positions of his feet in the original video they both have moved forward and to the left. they are in a more forward position then when he was in prep. he has moved his mass forward during the shot. (and to the left)

Well, his right foot is slightly more forward than before contact and his left foot is further behind. I think what's important though is that his center of mass is centered back and to the left versus before he hits.

[Cheetah]

what about at contact where it matters?

and he's lifting his left foot. it rotates around. just like his left shoulder. are you saying that after his left foot has left the ground and it is in mid-air that he pulls back with his left foot?

his right foot, right leg, torso, shoulder and his body tilt are all more forward at contact then at prep. his left foot is either slightly forward or the same at contact. whatever happens after that doesn't matter.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

what about at contact where it matters?

and he's lifting his left foot. it rotates around. just like his left shoulder. are you saying that after his left foot has left the ground and it is in mid-air that he pulls back with his left foot?

his right foot, right leg, torso, shoulder and his body tilt are all more forward at contact then at prep. his left foot is either slightly forward or the same at contact. whatever happens after that doesn't matter.

You're saying that if he was stepping straight through the ball and falling through the court rather than back and to left after the shot, he'd produce the same ball?

I disagree. What you're intending to do changes how you swing. If you're going to pull back to the left, you're going to increase your racket head acceleration up and across BEFORE your whole body noticeably starts shifting. I disagree about his right foot pushing him forward. I think that's where he begins to push back and to the left, thereby increasing his racket head speed. After he hits the ball, you see the effect of that by his body weight shifting diagonally backwards left.

I'm curious what you think of what Oscar is doing here. Do you consider that having your weight going into the ball? We might just have different interpretations of the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DHegz98#t=494s

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

You're saying that if he was stepping straight through the ball and falling through the court rather than back and to left after the shot, he'd produce the same ball?

no. i'm just saying he's not pulling back.

I disagree. What you're intending to do changes how you swing. If you're going to pull back to the left, you're going to increase your racket head acceleration up and across BEFORE your whole body noticeably starts shifting.

how do you get leverage if you pull back then?

I'm curious what you think of what Oscar is doing here. Do you consider that having your weight going into the ball? We might just have different interpretations of the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DHegz98#t=494s

I don't see any pros swinging like that. pause one of those guys shots. he's absolutely falling backwards and off balance.

Is Rafa pulling back here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82B7A...elated&t=1m05s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9jT7bJBuOQ&feature=plcp