Andy Murray - One Slam Wonder?

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by batz

Reuters feb 20th

The global network of ironymeters was forced to shut down tonight after it became overloaded. Scientists have traced the cause to a tennis messageboard where a keyboard hardman with the self awareness of a chair called other people cowards. A spokesman for the International Centre for Irony Research said "some people are just to stupid to post on the internet, something should be done"

Maybe the mods should introduce a TTW IQ test which all prospective posters must pass before being allowed on the boards? Sample questions might include:

1. Do you actually know about the careers and backgrounds of the players you propose to talk about?

2. Do you understand the difference between liking or disliking a player and whether or not they can play or have played well?

3. Please give a written definition of the following words: Irony, Subtlety, Humour, Self-Awareness, Fairness, Objectivity, Impartiality.

Might be a good start!

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by Mainad

Maybe the mods should introduce a TTW IQ test which all prospective posters must pass before being allowed on the boards? Sample questions might include:

1. Do you actually know about the careers and backgrounds of the players you propose to talk about?

2. Do you understand the difference between liking or disliking a player and whether or not they can play or have played well?

3. Please give a written definition of the following words: Irony, Subtlety, Humour, Self-Awareness, Fairness, Objectivity, Impartiality.

Might be a good start!

You forgot the most important question:

4. Please state if you are 14 years and under.

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by dafinch

I said, there is pressure in playing Slam finals, PERIOD. YOU'RE the one who keeps prattling on about the opponent. If the 50th ranked player got to a Slam final against # 100, there would be pressure because he would be expected to win; if he was, instead, playing # 1, people say there's no pressure, no expectations. I don't agree with that at all, if you're one win away from a Slam, it doesn't matter WHO you are playing, there is pressure. Some people handle it better than others, and Murray, judging by his record against the Big 3 overall, in Slams prior to the Finals, and in the Finals, is NOT particularly good at handling it. Spin it all you like, but those are the facts, and they are not easily disputed.

Here's my opinion of Murray's main problem in slam finals.
I think he has slightly inferior natural physical strength and fitness. The other members of the top 4 just seem to be inherently almost super physically fit and strong and the recent AO final just confirmed that even more for me. As Bobby Jnr pointed out in another thread that's just in your genetic make up and luck of the draw type of thing excuse the pun.
Murray seems to have to work harder to get close to the same fitness and strength. He's very very fit and strong relative to most but not on the same level as freaks Federer, Djokovic and Nadal.
Correct me if wrong but out of the 6 slam finals he's been in only one of them gave him favoured scheduling eg playing the final with one days extra rest than his opponent and guess which final that was - USO 2012 the only slam final he won.
Bit of a correlation wouldn't you say?
I think Murray needs that little extra bit of scheduling luck a lot more than his main rivals but instead it almost always works against him, and because the others are stronger, the problem is only compounded. And you can see it.
In all other slam finals, I believe, Murray's opponent had the extra days rest.
Rewind to the final of AO 2013 - Murray wins the first set tie break, same pattern as USO 2012 final, then Murray is 1-0 up in the 2nd set and has Djokovic 0-40 and on the ropes. If Murray breaks chances are he wins that 2nd set and then...well who knows. I still have a feeling actually that Murray would have wained physically and lost it in 5.
Now give Murray just one extra days rest and I reckon Murray wins that final under the same circumstances.
Rewind to USO 2012 final - Murray with the extra days rest wins the 1st set 7-6, wins the next 7-5 and goes onto win the final in 5. Give Murray one days less rest there and I'd be pretty sure he loses that match.
Murray being inherently physically less strong IMO, I'm not saying less technically talented far from it, needs that extra days rest more than the others, Djokovic triumphing in two marathon back to back 5 set matches to win the 2012 Australian slam proves the point, but Murray has only had that scheduling advantage in just one of his six slam finals.

[Anaconda]

Originally Posted by Fedex

You forgot the most important question:

4. Please state if you are 14 years and under.

Or maybe 'have you ever lifted a racket?'

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by Fedex

You forgot the most important question:

4. Please state if you are 14 years and under.

Originally Posted by Anaconda

Or maybe 'have you ever lifted a racket?'

Well that was my age when I first picked up a racket in earnest at club level and I can tell you the b1tching and nastiness of middle England... I mean middle Scotland was intolerable and not conducive to any budding young player keen on progressing their tennis skills.
I lost count of the times I had to stop myself wrapping my racket around the heads of bullying cliquey prats who remind me of many posters on this board.
Actually I know they're from the same mould cause I can smell a mile away the same irrational, intolerant, arrogant, bigoted attitudes and personality styles.

[Anaconda]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Well that was my age when I first picked up a racket in earnest at club level and I can tell you the b1tching and nastiness of middle England... I mean middle Scotland was intolerable and not conducive to any budding young player keen on progressing their tennis skills.
I lost count of the times I had to stop myself wrapping my racket around the heads of bullying cliquey prats who remind me of many posters on this board.
Actually I know they are the same mould cause I can smell a mile away the same irrational, intolerant, arrogant, bigoted attitudes and personality styles.

B!tching in society (especially work) will never stop. It's hard to concede this - because lots of people do it; They act as if they are your friend then the second you're not around they turn into someone who hates you. This is why I pretty much trust (and like no one) in reality (although my fellow college students and friends who have no reason to b!tch aren't subject to his). Tennis though the community in my area, although not very popular, isn't so bad. Made some pretty decent friends there in the process.

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by Anaconda

B!tching in society (especially work) will never stop. It's hard to concede this - because lots of people do it; They act as if they are your friend then the second you're not around they turn into someone who hates you. This is why I pretty much trust (and like no one) in reality (although my fellow college students and friends who have no reason to b!tch aren't subject to his). Tennis though the community in my area, although not very popular, isn't so bad. Made some pretty decent friends there in the process.

A lot of it is an age thing as well.
Around about 14 year olds are the worst group which is how you can tell the age of a lot of posters on this forum.

[Antonio Puente]

Originally Posted by Anaconda

This is why I pretty much trust and like no one

Do unto others before they do unto you.

[WhiskeyEE]

Originally Posted by batz

Reuters feb 20th

The global network of ironymeters was forced to shut down tonight after it became overloaded. Scientists have traced the cause to a tennis messageboard where a keyboard hardman with the self awareness of a chair called other people cowards. A spokesman for the International Centre for Irony Research said "some people are just to stupid to post on the internet, something should be done"

Irony is right. Too stupid to understand simple probability and yet here you are criticizing someone else's intelligence. The irony, my friend.

[Hawkeye7]

Originally Posted by Fedex

I think Murray needs that little extra bit of scheduling luck a lot more than his main rivals but instead it almost always works against him, and because the others are stronger, the problem is only compounded.

I don't think it's the physicality he's struggling with. The blisters he got during the AO final had nothing to do with his fitness levels. I don't believe that he's an inferior athlete in comparison to the other 3, an inferior Tennis player, yes (simply based on statistics, mentality etc.), but I don't believe for a second that the other 3 don't have to work just as hard on their fitness. Federer is not super-human in the fitness department by any means, but he plays a style that is a lot less taxing and more based on finesse and offence than defence, which made it easier for him to stay at the top for so long. Of course he lost a step or two in recent years, but he's still capable of playing good Tennis. And Djokovic wasn't really known for his great fitness until 2011. Before that he had quite a few health problems, so what makes you think he's more naturally gifted in that department?

I think it's undeniable that Murray is mentally weaker than the other 3. That doesn't just go for slam finals, but for all tournaments. He is often incapable of consolidating breaks or serving out sets/matches on the first attempt, or at all. He's lost a lot more matches than the other three while being in a winning position too. I'm not even saying this to criticise him, it's obviously not a good thing, but at the end of the day, he is still a champion and overcame those doubts in his head when it really mattered, at least once. That doesn't mean, he's never going to mentally struggle again in big moments, but it also doesn't make his win a fluke. We've seen multiple times that he's capable of beating the best. Who knows what's going to happen in the future? I don't like making predictions.

Just for the record, Andy played the first SF at the AO 2010 and at Wimbledon 2012 the SFs were both played on the same day, so he wasn't at a disadvantage scheduling-wise there either.

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Here's my opinion of Murray's main problem in slam finals.
I think he has slightly inferior natural physical strength and fitness. The other members of the top 4 just seem to be inherently almost super physically fit and strong and the recent AO final just confirmed that even more for me. As Bobby Jnr pointed out in another thread that's just in your genetic make up and luck of the draw type of thing excuse the pun.
Murray seems to have to work harder to get close to the same fitness and strength. He's very very fit and strong relative to most but not on the same level as freaks Federer, Djokovic and Nadal.
Correct me if wrong but out of the 6 slam finals he's been in only one of them gave him favoured scheduling eg playing the final with one days extra rest than his opponent and guess which final that was - USO 2012 the only slam final he won.
Bit of a correlation wouldn't you say?
I think Murray needs that little extra bit of scheduling luck a lot more than his main rivals but instead it almost always works against him, and because the others are stronger, the problem is only compounded. And you can see it.
In all other slam finals, I believe, Murray's opponent had the extra days rest.
Rewind to the final of AO 2013 - Murray wins the first set tie break, same pattern as USO 2012 final, then Murray is 1-0 up in the 2nd set and has Djokovic 0-40 and on the ropes. If Murray breaks chances are he wins that 2nd set and then...well who knows. I still have a feeling actually that Murray would have wained physically and lost it in 5.
Now give Murray just one extra days rest and I reckon Murray wins that final under the same circumstances.
Rewind to USO 2012 final - Murray with the extra days rest wins the 1st set 7-6, wins the next 7-5 and goes onto win the final in 5. Give Murray one days less rest there and I'd be pretty sure he loses that match.
Murray being inherently physically less strong IMO, I'm not saying less technically talented far from it, needs that extra days rest more than the others, Djokovic triumphing in two marathon back to back 5 set matches to win the 2012 Australian slam proves the point, but Murray has only had that scheduling advantage in just one of his six slam finals.

As another posted stated, your scheduling disadvantage scenario wasn't entirely accurate, but, in any event, you think it's the physical, I think it's mental weakness, we'll see over the next few years who is right.

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by dafinch

As another posted stated, your scheduling disadvantage scenario wasn't entirely accurate, but, in any event, you think it's the physical, I think it's mental weakness, we'll see over the next few years who is right.

Ok so in the 6 slams where he reached the final he's had the scheduling advantage twice.

[spinovic]

Why is Murray not playing anything between Australia and Indian Wells? Anybody know?

[spinovic]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Ok so in the 6 slams where he reached the final he's had the scheduling advantage twice.

I really think the windy conditions helped him more in the US Open. He handled them much better than Djokovic and that allowed him to take a two set lead. Not trying to take anything away from Murray (was glad to see him win one), but I'm not convinced he'd have beat Djokovic in normal conditions.

However, that is a part of tennis, and he handled it better. Which goes back to the question about mental toughness. Djokovic is assumed by many, me included, to be the mentally tougher player, but in that situation Murray's mental toughness won out and ultimately he won the match. Djokovic isn't flawless in that category either.

[syc23]

Originally Posted by spinovic

I really think the windy conditions helped him more in the US Open. He handled them much better than Djokovic and that allowed him to take a two set lead. Not trying to take anything away from Murray (was glad to see him win one), but I'm not convinced he'd have beat Djokovic in normal conditions.

You absolute spanner. I think you've shot yourself in the foot with your reasoning by completely contradicting yourself by citing the wind as an excuse (aid) for Murray's USO win.

Remind me not to hire you as my attorney

The last time I checked, both players had a racquet in their hand and played with the same ball, same court and same weather conditions. The better player won on the day period. In the same way that Novak was the better player at the AO'13 final.

[Goosehead]

Originally Posted by spinovic

Why is Murray not playing anything between Australia and Indian Wells? Anybody know?

he is having one of his 'training blocks'...

he and lendl decided on this approach as he wants to go full on at the masters events in usa and europe and then french open..

think the idea is to be fresh and super fit, and hit the ground running at indian wells and win win WINNNNN as b4 his results in this part of season have been patchy at best.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by spinovic

I really think the windy conditions helped him more in the US Open. He handled them much better than Djokovic and that allowed him to take a two set lead. Not trying to take anything away from Murray (was glad to see him win one), but I'm not convinced he'd have beat Djokovic in normal conditions.

For me, it was a stamina issue more so than any 'wind factor' which, in my opinion, has been much too exaggerated on here. It may have been a bit windy in the first 2 sets (though much less so than in their respective semi-finals), but it had certainly died down after that. Bear in mind that Djokovic came back to level the match at 2 sets all so either the wind was no longer much of a factor by that stage or Djokovic had learnt to cope with it as much as Murray had. In the decider, Murray was just more up for it. Djokovic looked a bit gassed.

At 2013 AO, it was the reverse. Murray again was the better player for most of the first 2 sets (and note there was no wind factor on that occasion) but he lost the stamina battle this time. The 5 setter against Federer 2 days before seems to have taken too much out of him. Djokovic had the better of the scheduling this time and it paid off for him. He won the stamina battle that time round.

[Mainad]

Originally Posted by Goosehead

he is having one of his 'training blocks'...

he and lendl decided on this approach as he wants to go full on at the masters events in usa and europe and then french open..

think the idea is to be fresh and super fit, and hit the ground running at indian wells and win win WINNNNN as b4 his results in this part of season have been patchy at best.

Of course, the downside is that he will lack match practice going into IW. So it's a bit swings and roundabouts. I'm wondering if that foot injury he picked up at the AO final was a bit more serious than he let on. He shrugged it off as trivial at the time but it may be one of the factors that decided him against playing any of the February tournaments so as to give it longer to heal properly.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by batz

Reuters feb 20th

The global network of ironymeters was forced to shut down tonight after it became overloaded. Scientists have traced the cause to a tennis messageboard where a keyboard hardman with the self awareness of a chair called other people cowards. A spokesman for the International Centre for Irony Research said "some people are just to stupid to post on the internet, something should be done"

You never take a day off from office? Every time someone posts something critical about Murray you reply within 10 minutes. And by every time I mean every freaking time with no exceptions.

[batz]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyEE

Irony is right. Too stupid to understand simple probability and yet here you are criticizing someone else's intelligence. The irony, my friend.

I'm too stupid to understand complex probability - but I'm not a keyboard hardman or a troll, and I'm fookin minted - so that lack of a grasp of complex probability doesn't seem to have held back my personal development. I commend developing as a person to you - one day it might make you come across as a decent guy. We live in hope.