The Doping Thread

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by mellowyellow

Do you honestly think WADA is in this for cleaning up any sport? Like any part of the Pharmaceutical business, its only about money. Maybe ask yourself how WADA was so sure about Lance, yet could never, through any of THEIR testing provide a tainted sample? How can you do a presser (with a straight face) about Lance when your own company is that incompetent with its own testing procedures? In this scenario, WADA cant even prove anyyone else was clean, or dirty or what the "playing field" really was. I know their track record seems to be one that if they were your doctor and trying to find the disease i would not be using them anymore.... All the major bust have come from people opening their big mouths because they are jealous or have some sort of motive, not from test

So what's the point of even having an antidoping agency? It ends up hurting the reputation of the game, as it puts any one successful enough under suspicion of juicing. Or at least anybody successful and muscular enough. This is crazy.

[Wilander Fan]

Originally Posted by batz

So? Who's to say he doesn't use PEDs to achieve this?

My opinion is that it's all a load of old bollox as you can be the fittest guy in the world and still be shyte at tennis, which is, first and foremost, a game of skill.

I don't believe any of the top guys are doping. I'm sure it happens - but not at that level.

The slower the court, the less skill involved. S&V was more skill orientated but baseline bashing has always been about footwork, tired legs and endurance. Especially today with these violent western grip forehands. Those verticle swings take alot more energy than the classic swing Fed uses.

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

Errani, Schiavone, Stosur are definately using some stuff on the womens side.

On the ATP Tour there are quite a few suspicious ones as well.

As for Djokovic.
The guy used to have a gazillion allergies and intolerances until 2009/2010.

- Allergic rhinitis
- Roasting in the sun like a turkey
- several torn muscles
- gluten intolerance
- and and and

From 2005-2009 he was a retirement Queen, quitting like crazy due to ridiculous injuries.
The guy could barely last a fifth set match when things weren't going his way.
Now since 2011 he plays one marathon match after the other and during the post match interview he looks like he can last another 5-6 hours on court.
Seriously such an immense change can't be explained with a healthier lifestyle and CVAC.

All of the TOP guys might be taking some crap, but Novak takes the cake for me when it comes to a "who would you mention first" question.

Nole "quitting like crazy" is a myth, as a poster here showed not long. His buddy, Tippy, yes, but you are not correct about Nole. And, btw, when did you get your Uber doctor's decree where you can decide from you couch which injuries are legit and which are "ridiculous?"

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by dafinch

Nole "quitting like crazy" is a myth, as a poster here showed not long. His buddy, Tippy, yes, but you are not correct about Nole. And, btw, when did you get your Uber doctor's decree where you can decide from you couch which injuries are legit and which are "ridiculous?"

The whole point is that when Djoker was pushed hard enough he was very likely to quit. The change is radical and undeniable. Now, I'm not claiming PED use. Just saying that Novak displays the most dramatic change I remember in a top athlete (not just tennis) regarding stamina and physical endurance. He's gone from whimp to pimp.

[70後]

That Stan AO match did it for me. The most extraordinary shotmaking failed against a person who never got tired. If only the overall conditions were fast and unpredictable and polarised in variety, maybe never getting tired would be irrelevant. I wouldn't say the "d" word but I've lost trust. For me this is an anti shotmakers era. I have no more faith in the game.

[BlueB]

Originally Posted by dafinch

Nole "quitting like crazy" is a myth, as a poster here showed not long.

Absolutely right! I think these are the posts:

Originally Posted by veroniquem

I looked into it. Let's kill those silly accusations once and for all.
This is a complete list of Djoko's retirements in his career. Here we go:

2003: Serbia F5
2004: none
2005: RG
2006: RG, Umag
2007: W
2008: DC 1st R, M-C
2009: AO
2010: Belgrade
2011: Cincy, DC Semi
2012: none


Myth #1: Djoko used to be a serial retirer: false: he's never retired more than once or twice a year out of a full schedule.
Myth #2: He used to retire constantly and very suspiciously it all stopped in 2011 when he became a superhuman: false: he retired twice in 2011 like he did in 2006 and 2008.
Myth #3: He retired because he had no stamina (magic egg fixed that in 2011): false: none of his retirements had anything to do with going the distance or stamina. More than half of his retirements (6 out of 11) happened on clay: F5 2003, RG 2005, Umag 2006, RG 2006, M-C 2008, Belgrade 2010. They were allergy related (clay dust causing breathing difficulties). They stopped after 2010 when he discovered that those difficulties were exacerbated by gluten. 1 was caused by extreme heat. (AO). 2 were caused by back problems: W 2007, DC sf 2011. Cincy 2011: shoulder issue, was probably due to overplay after his very long winning stretch. As early as USO 2005 and W 2006, Djoko played 5 setters and played them out without giving up. Djoko has NEVER retired because of tiredness due to length of match.
Myth # 4: Djoko has retired in all grand slams: false: he has never retired at USO.

I'm gonna save this post and that should do it every time somebody tries to bring up that BS nonsense about Djoko the weakling miraculously transformed into indestructible Hercules in 2011. Enough is enough.

Originally Posted by veroniquem

No problem. 5 setters Djoko has played in his career:

2005: played 4: 2 W/ 2 L
2006: played 3: 2 W/ 1 L
2007: played 3: 3 W/ 0 L
2008: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
2009: none played
2010: played 6: 4 W/ 2 L
2011: played 1: 1 W/ 0 L
2012: played 5: 4 W/ 1 L

Fact #1: Djokovic has played 5 set matches on the tour since the age of 18.
Fact #2: He has always won more than he has lost except his first year (2005) when it's a tie. (The 1st 2 players he beat in a 5 setter were Garcia-Lopez and Monfils)
Conclusion: Djoko has always been a good 5 set player, before and after 2011.
Zagor: thanks! Maybe you can bookmark this one too!

[Tony48]

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

Errani, Schiavone, Stosur are definately using some stuff on the womens side.

On the ATP Tour there are quite a few suspicious ones as well.

As for Djokovic.
The guy used to have a gazillion allergies and intolerances until 2009/2010.

- Allergic rhinitis
- Roasting in the sun like a turkey
- several torn muscles
- gluten intolerance
- and and and

From 2005-2009 he was a retirement Queen, quitting like crazy due to ridiculous injuries.
The guy could barely last a fifth set match when things weren't going his way.
Now since 2011 he plays one marathon match after the other and during the post match interview he looks like he can last another 5-6 hours on court.
Seriously such an immense change can't be explained with a healthier lifestyle and CVAC.

All of the TOP guys might be taking some crap, but Novak takes the cake for me when it comes to a "who would you mention first" question.

The myth that keeps on giving.

Djokovic had a well-documented history of having incredible stamina and playing one marathon match after another without quitting. But of course, no one remembers that because it doesn't fit well with the whole "Djokovic has no stamina" argument. Like at the 2007 U.S. Open: he played a 4-hour 41 minute match against Stepanek and a near 4-hour match against Monaco.....and then made it all the way to the finals.

But whatever

[Sid_Vicious]

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

Errani, Schiavone, Stosur are definately using some stuff on the womens side.

On the ATP Tour there are quite a few suspicious ones as well.

As for Djokovic.
The guy used to have a gazillion allergies and intolerances until 2009/2010.

- Allergic rhinitis
- Roasting in the sun like a turkey
- several torn muscles
- gluten intolerance
- and and and

From 2005-2009 he was a retirement Queen, quitting like crazy due to ridiculous injuries.
The guy could barely last a fifth set match when things weren't going his way.
Now since 2011 he plays one marathon match after the other and during the post match interview he looks like he can last another 5-6 hours on court.
Seriously such an immense change can't be explained with a healthier lifestyle and CVAC.

All of the TOP guys might be taking some crap, but Novak takes the cake for me when it comes to a "who would you mention first" question.

You are really stretching the truth. Djokovic was one of the best 5 set players on tour even in 2005-2010. He played numerous matches where he was down 0-2 or 1-2 sets and came out victorious. His record speaks for itself. When Djokovic did have health issues he went down easily rather than in 5 sets.

[batz]

Originally Posted by Wilander Fan

The slower the court, the less skill involved. S&V was more skill orientated but baseline bashing has always been about footwork, tired legs and endurance. Especially today with these violent western grip forehands. Those verticle swings take alot more energy than the classic swing Fed uses.

Subjective bollocks presented as fact.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

From 2005-2009 he was a retirement Queen, quitting like crazy due to ridiculous injuries.

Yes, he was a retirement Queen which absolutely didn't change in his super duper 2011 as he retired twice that year.

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

The guy could barely last a fifth set match when things weren't going his way.

The guy had a 12-5 five set record and never retired in the 5th set of a match.

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

Now since 2011 he plays one marathon match after the other and during the post match interview he looks like he can last another 5-6 hours on court.
Seriously such an immense change can't be explained with a healthier lifestyle and CVAC.

He could always play back-to-back marathon matches, see 2007 USO and Wimbledon for example.

He could also play 100 matches in a season before 2011 like he did in 2009, what a wimp.

Originally Posted by PSNELKE

All of the TOP guys might be taking some crap, but Novak takes the cake for me when it comes to a "who would you mention first" question.

Yeah, if you ignore facts or twist them to suit your agenda.

P.S. I think all top players are doping but I sure as heck don't think Novak suddenly started to do so in 2011 (after being in top 3 for 4 consecutive years) and that other top stars are clean.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by BlueB

Absolutely right! I think these are the posts:

Thanks, saved me the effort.

Those two posts from Vero should be mentioned every time this topic comes around, just to present a clearer picture of things.

[zagor]

Originally Posted by YouCantBeSerious

The whole point is that when Djoker was pushed hard enough he was very likely to quit.

That's the thing, he didn't, most of his retirements were not in BO5 matches that went the distance (as Sid said).

[The_Order]

Didn't he go 4 hours with Nadal on clay in 2009 Madrid?

Amongst that, many other matches where he went the distance.

As for the top players doping, I don't buy it. Everyone says that it would destroy tennis especially if it were Fed or Rafa who got revealed as dopers. Truth is, if these guys were doping, they would've been revealed BEFORE they were winning multiple majors.

Take RG 2005 for example, Nadal was an 18/19 year old on the rise and hadn't won any majors yet. How would it have destroyed tennis to reveal that he was doping? They revealed that Puerta was doping didn't they?

If an 18/19 year old Rafa can win RG without doping, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that as he got older and stronger that he'd need to dope to continue to win it.

The fact is the *******s cannot stand that guys like Rafa and Novak came along and started to consistently knock him out of majors. So they concoct this story to make themselves feel better that their hero didn't really lose fair and square.

This year's AO was the perfect example to back up my point. I'd never seen much talk of Murray doping on here before, but as soon as he beats Fed, there's threads about Murray doping now. Seriously pathetic. Llendl was one of the fittest guys on tour back in the day, It's obvious that Murray's fitness has been bolstered by Ivan.

[Steve0904]

I think it's a perception thing with Novak. Not necessarily right, but not entirely wrong either. Pointing out how many times he retired in 2011 as opposed to any other year or his 5 set record is great. Those are fine facts. Obviously some people are exaggerating, but the reason for a lot of Novak's injuries and subsequent retirements leaves a lot to be desired. (i.e heat exhaustion, sore throat, breathing difficulties). Now the first 2 examples I gave were pretty lame retirements in all honesty, but breathing difficulties can be serious. I acknowledge that much, but I think in most people's minds (anybody can correct me since I'm making a bit of a generalization here) they'd rather see a guy retire with a physical injury that they can see with their own eyes.

These days there is a drastic improvement that seems questionable because of the reasons he gave for some of his other retirements. We can't really fault people for being suspicious, even if the facts debunk the myth a "little bit."

The truth is, that while I respect Novak for turning it around (can we still call it that?), he doesn't really stack up against Federer or Nadal well in this category, which I think is what creates this perception. I don't think Murray has near as many mid match retirements either, but I am not sure so I won't say anything definitive. It also has to be said, that Nadal has missed entire GS, so take that as you will. However, including 2005, I'm fairly certain Nadal has only retired mid match once. (Murray AO 2010). Federer has 2 walkovers, but has never retired mid match.

Contrast this with Novak, who, including 2005 has retired 10 times mid match. Like I said, I respect Novak, but these are the facts that I believe have led to this perception. And you know what they say about perception.

Just my two cents.

[Skarter]

Originally Posted by Steve0904

I think it's a perception thing with Novak. Not necessarily right, but not entirely wrong either. Pointing out how many times he retired in 2011 as opposed to any other year or his 5 set record is great. Those are fine facts. Obviously some people are exaggerating, but the reason for a lot of Novak's injuries and subsequent retirements leaves a lot to be desired. (i.e heat exhaustion, sore throat).

These days there is a drastic improvement that seems questionable because of the reasons he gave for some of his other retirements. We can't really fault people for being suspicious, even if the facts debunk the myth a "little bit."

The truth is, that while I respect Novak for turning it around (can we still call it that?), he doesn't really stack up against Federer or Nadal well in this category, which I think is what creates this perception. I don't think Murray has near as many mid match retirements either, but I am not sure so I won't say anything definitive. It also has to be said, that Nadal has missed entire GS, so take that as you will. However, including 2005, I'm fairly certain Nadal has only retired mid match once. (Murray AO 2010). Federer has 2 walkovers, but has never retired mid match.

Contrast this with Novak, who, including 2005 has retired 10 times mid match. Like I said, I respect Novak, but these are the facts that I believe have led to this perception. And you know what they say about perception.

Just my two cents.

Sorry, could you please make it clear what perception are you talking about?

You keep mentioning it but never clearly stating it?

That Djokovic is weak or that he is using PED's because he.....what exactly?

[SLD76]

Originally Posted by The_Order

Didn't he go 4 hours with Nadal on clay in 2009 Madrid?

Amongst that, many other matches where he went the distance.

As for the top players doping, I don't buy it. Everyone says that it would destroy tennis especially if it were Fed or Rafa who got revealed as dopers. Truth is, if these guys were doping, they would've been revealed BEFORE they were winning multiple majors.

Take RG 2005 for example, Nadal was an 18/19 year old on the rise and hadn't won any majors yet. How would it have destroyed tennis to reveal that he was doping? They revealed that Puerta was doping didn't they?

If an 18/19 year old Rafa can win RG without doping, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that as he got older and stronger that he'd need to dope to continue to win it.

The fact is the *******s cannot stand that guys like Rafa and Novak came along and started to consistently knock him out of majors. So they concoct this story to make themselves feel better that their hero didn't really lose fair and square.

This year's AO was the perfect example to back up my point. I'd never seen much talk of Murray doping on here before, but as soon as he beats Fed, there's threads about Murray doping now. Seriously pathetic. Llendl was one of the fittest guys on tour back in the day, It's obvious that Murray's fitness has been bolstered by Ivan.

The fact that Rafa went from a relatively skinny teenager to a muscled bull within months is what, to many people, makes him suspicious.

Yes, we know male players mature into their bodies, but in allmy years of watching tennis, Id never seen a guy whose body changed so much in such a short amount of time.

Becker was a skinny teenager when he won WB, buter even at 17 he had rather large thigh muscles. As he aged he filled out his frame over time and still his large quads remained constant. Pete was lanky when he won USO at 19, but even then he had a strong lower body, especially calves. As he aged, he filled out his frame, but his strong legs and thighs remained a constant.

Rafa went from a noodle armed lanky teenager to just...muscles everywhere.
And he continued to get bigger and bigger and in 2008 he was just HUGE. Looking at matches now from 07/08 you forget how stacked rafa used to be. He is smaller now than then( for whatever reason)

But in all my years in tennis, Ive never seen a player whose physique changed so dramatically within a career.


check out his DC match late 03 vs what he looks like in Miami in 04.

[batz]

Originally Posted by Steve0904

I think it's a perception thing with Novak. Not necessarily right, but not entirely wrong either. Pointing out how many times he retired in 2011 as opposed to any other year or his 5 set record is great. Those are fine facts. Obviously some people are exaggerating, but the reason for a lot of Novak's injuries and subsequent retirements leaves a lot to be desired. (i.e heat exhaustion, sore throat, breathing difficulties). Now the first 2 examples I gave were pretty lame retirements in all honesty, but breathing difficulties can be serious. I acknowledge that much, but I think in most people's minds (anybody can correct me since I'm making a bit of a generalization here) they'd rather see a guy retire with a physical injury that they can see with their own eyes.

These days there is a drastic improvement that seems questionable because of the reasons he gave for some of his other retirements. We can't really fault people for being suspicious, even if the facts debunk the myth a "little bit."

The truth is, that while I respect Novak for turning it around (can we still call it that?), he doesn't really stack up against Federer or Nadal well in this category, which I think is what creates this perception. I don't think Murray has near as many mid match retirements either, but I am not sure so I won't say anything definitive. It also has to be said, that Nadal has missed entire GS, so take that as you will. However, including 2005, I'm fairly certain Nadal has only retired mid match once. (Murray AO 2010). Federer has 2 walkovers, but has never retired mid match.

Contrast this with Novak, who, including 2005 has retired 10 times mid match. Like I said, I respect Novak, but these are the facts that I believe have led to this perception. And you know what they say about perception.

Just my two cents.

Murray has retired once in 513 ATP matches - when he injured his wrist and was out for 3 months.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by batz

Subjective bollocks presented as fact.

Why is it bollocks? Even on the amateur level, players find it easier to trade shots at the baseline than even daring to construct points by S&V.

[mellowyellow]

Originally Posted by mariecon

I thought it was USADA that took down Lance, not WADA. But either way, no they didn't actually manage to get a positive test until I think maybe 2010. But they were relying on snitches. So you have to wonder if they really wanted to catch anyone. Even Lance said himself during his Oprah interview that they knew when the tests would be and could plan around them.

Yes, you are correct about that being the USADA, but it ultimately was WADA that approved this action by the USADA and ruled it to have jurisdiction on the matter... A matter that originated in Europe. So i in a sense use WADA as Anit Doping on a whole because they seem to be running the show behind the scenes and making most of the accusations against all international sports, especially ones they dont have complete control over. Then they let those smaller "factions" do the dirty work...

[mellowyellow]

Originally Posted by YouCantBeSerious

So what's the point of even having an antidoping agency? It ends up hurting the reputation of the game, as it puts any one successful enough under suspicion of juicing. Or at least anybody successful and muscular enough. This is crazy.

Well why is it only low level players that are busted? This all started as a health issue and safety for players. Now its administerd by legit doctors and the science behind it has proven very safe. The integrity of the sport is a load of bs, the term cheater is thrown around, but everyone is doing it so it is a level playing field. What is the iota to finding top level players? Lace is a different animal, all together, everyone knows it has been dirty since at least 1985, and remember that Lance made threats about his being clean. What other high profile was busted, let alone through testing. Big case bust stem from illegal drug "rings" or operations if you will that have a paper trail to big names. Is it really so that WADA is interested in cleaning the sport while the Spaniish govt sits on evidence that implicates more athletes.....