Help with doubles strategy!

[papa]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Since you are the #1 doubles team in the nation at the 40's and over, first of all congratulations, you certainly have a lot more experience than I do! One thing to consider since you mention you are new to doubles strategy is the I formation. Since the player you mention likes to rush the net, my guess is that she positions herself at or within the baseline. This makes her vulnerable to the I, since the tactic to foil it is to take a few steps back and wait for the netman to commit before hitting your return. If she continues to play close, have the netman poach to her crosscourt return side most of the time as it seems she has grooved that return pretty well and put those shots into her partner's body or into the alley.

With all due respect, I find the "I" formation can be more confusing than helpfull. Just seems to me to be difficult to re-focus as you pop-up along with not giving away any telltale hints at which direction you plan to go. Also if you commit a fraction of a second too early, your goose is cooked.

Although it takes awhile, I know I can guess with pretty good accuracy which way the net guy is going - not always right of course but better than 50/50.

Anyway, showing several looks generally works including occasionally keeping two back on the receiving team. Keep changing the look and you'll certainly keep them on their toes.

[Tennissiz]

Just to clarify that I am from Canada and we are currently #1 in the province... haven't quite got to nationals yet but yes we would like to work towards being #1 nationally too... just give us a few more seasons!

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by papa

With all due respect, I find the "I" formation can be more confusing than helpfull. Just seems to me to be difficult to re-focus as you pop-up along with not giving away any telltale hints at which direction you plan to go. Also if you commit a fraction of a second too early, your goose is cooked.

Although it takes awhile, I know I can guess with pretty good accuracy which way the net guy is going - not always right of course but better than 50/50.

Anyway, showing several looks generally works including occasionally keeping two back on the receiving team. Keep changing the look and you'll certainly keep them on their toes.

Well with all due respect, sure, anything can be confusing to someone who doesn't do it frequently or well. However, the Pros use the I with frequency so there is in fact something to be gained by it's use. I am certainly no Pro, but Tennissiz is #1 in her state (province) so is moderately close to that level. You don't mention the technique behind your "guessing" but I suppose that if you are uncomfortable with it's use, your competition is probably marginally competent to perform it correctly, thereby resulting in your slaying those guys. I don't think that is Tennissiz's competion's level of excellence.

[papa]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Well with all due respect, sure, anything can be confusing to someone who doesn't do it frequently or well. However, the Pros use the I with frequency so there is in fact something to be gained by it's use. I am certainly no Pro, but Tennissiz is #1 in her state (province) so is moderately close to that level. You don't mention the technique behind your "guessing" but I suppose that if you are uncomfortable with it's use, your competition is probably marginally competent to perform it correctly, thereby resulting in your slaying those guys. I don't think that is Tennissiz's competion's level of excellence.

Well, even if you are using that formation, you certainly would not use it on every point as you know. Yes, the pros do use it frequently and with quite a bit of success but they bring a great deal of talent to the table - perhaps the poster does have that ability, I don't know. All I'm saying is that the "I" formation can be confusing and yes, I have used it enough to realize its potential and disadvantages - at least for me.

As far as "guessing" which way they will go when your playing against the "I" there are several things that I look for and I'm quite sure I'm not alone. Believe it or not, players (both players) have strange little habbits which can be picked up. For instance, I played against a team that (in a standard doubles formation) the server indicated his verbal acceptance one way when his partner was going to poach and another when he was staying home.

Net players (in the "I") will often check out the direction they plan to go with a quick glance to that side or a little longer look at the other net man. Often, without even realizing it, players position their feet differently or make a small check to make sure the push-off foot is planted well depending on which way they plan to go. Although the same grip is normally used on both sides at net some players do in fact change a spec and that can be picked up.

There are lots of little things to watch for and if you can't pick them up, ask your partner to check also - sometimes your net man might see something you don't and a simple sign can prehaps help.

Look, I'm not against anything like different formations but some, like the "I" come with a price - thats all I'm saying. If you can make it work for your team, great. However, some teams really make a mess out of it and it costs them far more than they can expect to gain.

[LuckyR]

You are absolutely right that relatively complicated things like alternate formations need to be honed and not just used on an ad hoc basis. BTW since the I is basically just a called poach, do you have the same cautionary attitude about called poaches?

[volleyman]

Back to the original post:

The most important shots in any point are the server and return - at least in my opinion.

If she was eating up your serves, and it sounds as if she was, you need to work on varying your spin, speed and placement. You need to mix it up, like an aging baseball pitcher, and try to break her rhythm and concentration by keeping her guessing. If her lateral mobility is suspect, throwing in some wide serves could work wonders.

You also might try varying your formation, but not by playing I or Australian if you haven't practiced them. Just vary whether you play one up or two back. By presenting a changing target, you get her, hopefully, thinking more about what you're doing and concentrating less on crunching the return. By staying away from the unpracticed I and Australian formations, you don't have to leave your comfort zone.

Finally, it sounds like when you play her, she won't be playing with her husband. This means you can try attacking the partner and see if they're weaker.

[Kaptain Karl]

Tennissiz - I only just found this thread. I hope you two are having fun working on different tactics.

FiveO's, BB's and dmastous' tips are good ones. I agree with papa (and others) about not being as enamoured with the I Formation as we see so frequently on the Pros.

Here are my suggestions:
1 - Use more spin serves. Mix up the bounces they are seeing for their Returns. Kick, Top, Slice ... but vary the power on even these choices. Power Kick ... Normal Slice ... Normal Top ... Heavy Slice (You get the idea.).

If you *already were* doing this ... try the opposite. Hit more Flat and stay with the Hard spin serves.

2 - While serving up the T is still the preferred dubs target, sometimes our opponents' Returns can become "grooved" on these. Rather than serving Wide -- which opens us more Return angles, "pins" your Net Player, etc. -- try serving more frequently with Jam Serves. Make the Returner "get out of her own way" before she tries to hit the wicked return.

3 - Mix up your Serving Formations -- but use Australian, not "I". The Aussie Formation compels the Returner to try and return up the line, over the higher part of the net. (But mix up your patterns even when Serving.)

4 - I assume you are already doing this, but "just in case" ... be sure you two are communicating about what the Net Player's poaching plans are. The following is lifted from this Dubs Signals thread.

I teach my HS Boys to use the same signals I've used since my own HS partner and I played. One signal communicates it all:

The THUMB is the Poach / No Poach indicator:
Tumb OUT = Poach
In = No Poach
Waggle = Fake.

The FINGERS are the location indicator:
Fist = Jam
First (or First and Second together: some people seem to be less able to manipulate one finger) = Up the T
Fingers all open = Wide.

Blaskower recommends TWO different hand signals: One for Poaching, the second for Location and Spin. (I don't really care which spin my partner uses, though.)

P.S.
1 - Each year of HS practices I have to remind the Boys to have the Net Player signal with his hand at his butt; not up on his back. (Too many player bend so far forward, the Receivers partner can steal the signal if the Net Player is signaling with his hand above his waist.
2 - The Server can say "No" if he doesn't like the signal. If the Net Player hasn't come up with a "Yes" signal after three tries, just (Quickly!) go back and confer with the Server. I agree with Blaskower. (Assuming equal abilities) the Net Player is the Captain for that game. He's in the dominating position, he should call the Pitches he wants.

Please update us on your next match with this team. I know I'm curious to see how it goes....

- KK

[papa]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

You are absolutely right that relatively complicated things like alternate formations need to be honed and not just used on an ad hoc basis. BTW since the I is basically just a called poach, do you have the same cautionary attitude about called poaches?

No, I don't but others do.

[LuckyR]

Interesting...

[Tennissiz]

Well, here's an update... so far we have played a league match and 2 other practice matches since the original post.

The calibre of our opponents were solid and included: a teaching pro, a multiple time Nationals doubles champion, and two players who just came back from competing at the ITF Senior Worlds in Durbin, South Africa.

We were able to play our game and dominate at the net. However, I would say our opponents played more "classic" doubles with emphasis on placement, spin and control rather than flat hard drives right at the net player. At no time did we encounter that uneasy feeling of "what do we do now?" (ie. we could attack and defend comfortably as a team)

In retrospect, I think that the essence of the problem in the original match I described was this: we didn't have a way to set up the point for each other.

So, I appreciate ALL the ideas that members of this board have posted and we will definitely have FUN trying all the varying formations, serves, returns, and shot selections that were suggested. I already know that having these tips to focus on will give us the confidence boost to get out there and "JUST DO IT!".

[papa]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Interesting...

If you play the "modified" "I", where instead of bending/crouching, the net player simply moves toward the alley a couple of feet and back a little but remains basically upright, some of the confusion/re-focus isn't quite as bad. However, it does defeat/lessen the purpose of the formation. I have seen this formation used quite effectively, especially when agility starts to enter into the equation.

Incidently, signals (there are many versions, KK illustrated one) are not used by everyone - some prefer a more spontaneous system where they "go" when they feel they have the edge. Of course, ball/returner placement becomes a key here. Regardless of whether signals are used, the net man should be a big factor and go after a high percentage of returns - like maybe 25 - 35%.

I also don't see the "I" as a poach although you would hope, obviously, that you can intercept the return of service. I think it primarily takes the returner out of thinking a crosscourt return of service is safe.

[Kaptain Karl]

Originally Posted by papa

... especially when agility starts to enter into the equation.

Hey! Who 'you callin' OLD??? (Okay. I do admit that's a major reason I will avoid the "I". But if we've tried everything else without success ... "Gimme the 'I'!!!")

Incidently, signals (there are many versions, KK illustrated one) are not used by everyone...

Quite right. I'd say Signals are *less common* at the tourneys I've played in the last four years. In that Signals Thread I linked, there were some really creative methods of signaling. (I doubt I'd remember the systems some teams use...!)

[Some buddies of mine in the late '70s - early '80s had the funniest "distractor" signal I'd ever seen. The Server would flash a series of one, two, three or four fingers off his racket grip ... making everyone believe they were using baseball's method of having some "Indicator" in the series which revealed the actual signal. (You know, the signal AFTER the Two is the real signal ... but they'd flash two-to-four more signals afterward.) Then the Net Man would flash a series of signals back.... Opponents and spectators were racking their brains trying to break the code. One day in a practice match I casually commented on the code-breakers' efforts and said, "Wouldn't it be funny if your 'signal' was really how you were holding your non-racket hand while signaling?" They both burst out laughing in such a way, it was obvious I had cracked the code(!). Their real signals were where they were holding the racket with their Off Hand. (This is the first time I've revealed their secret. It's been over 20 years -- and they don't play together anymore. They live 1,500 miles apart. I'm sure it's okay by now ... really.)

... some prefer a more spontaneous system where they "go" when they feel they have the edge.

True again. In fact, Blaskower, in her very good book sees Signaling as somewhat of a crutch ... and confining. (Reasonable minds can differ.)

In that thread I linked to ^^^ (Or one of the Dubs threads.) I explained my preference FOR signaling.

Of course, ball/returner placement becomes a key here.

Amen!!!

Regardless of whether signals are used, the net man should be a big factor and go after a high percentage of returns - like maybe 25 - 35%.

I like this emphasis. 25-35% is a good aggressive amount.

- KK

[Tennissiz]

Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl

[i]I teach my HS Boys to use the same signals I've used since my own HS partner and I played. One signal communicates it all:

The THUMB is the Poach / No Poach indicator:
Tumb OUT = Poach
In = No Poach
Waggle = Fake.

The FINGERS are the location indicator:
Fist = Jam
First (or First and Second together: some people seem to be less able to manipulate one finger) = Up the T
Fingers all open = Wide.

Blaskower recommends TWO different hand signals: One for Poaching, the second for Location and Spin. (I don't really care which spin my partner uses, though.)



- KK

Thanks, KK, for sharing your secret handshake!
I am just wondering if you could further describe the "No Poach" indicator with the thumb in. Do you mean it is tucked in under the fingers (resembling a fist)? If so, does this create possible confusion with the "Jam serve" indicator?

[Kaptain Karl]

Originally Posted by Tennissiz

Thanks, KK, for sharing your secret handshake!
I am just wondering if you could further describe the "No Poach" indicator with the thumb in. Do you mean it is tucked in under the fingers (resembling a fist)? If so, does this create possible confusion with the "Jam serve" indicator?

Hmm. This hasn't ever been asked of me....

Okay, Jam is a fist. Jam/Poach is a fist with the thumb stuck out like a hitch hiker's. Jam/Fake is the same, but the thumb is waving EITHER up and down (along the same axis as the forearm) OR back and forth (across that same axis). Jam/Stay is a fist with the thumb either wrapped over the fingertips of the fist ... OR ... "Ishan Ryu" style (If you're a karate-ka.) against the first finger of the balled fist.

Wide is an open hand (fingers either splayed or closed, like in a salute; doesn't matter). Wide/Poach is with the thumb out. Wide/Fake the "out" thumb is waggling as in the Jam, above. Wide/Stay, the thumb is EITHER tucked over toward the base of the Little Finger ... OR ... closed against the First Digit (just like a salute). But the Wide signal still keeps the fingers "out flat" while the thumb is signaling whatever poach notice the Net Player likes.

Was that better?

- KK

[Tennissiz]

Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl

Hmm. This hasn't ever been asked of me....

Okay, Jam is a fist. Jam/Poach is a fist with the thumb stuck out like a hitch hiker's. Jam/Fake is the same, but the thumb is waving EITHER up and down (along the same axis as the forearm) OR back and forth (across that same axis). Jam/Stay is a fist with the thumb either wrapped over the fingertips of the fist ... OR ... "Ishan Ryu" style (If you're a karate-ka.) against the first finger of the balled fist.

Wide is an open hand (fingers either splayed or closed, like in a salute; doesn't matter). Wide/Poach is with the thumb out. Wide/Fake the "out" thumb is waggling as in the Jam, above. Wide/Stay, the thumb is EITHER tucked over toward the base of the Little Finger ... OR ... closed against the First Digit (just like a salute). But the Wide signal still keeps the fingers "out flat" while the thumb is signaling whatever poach notice the Net Player likes.

Was that better?

- KK

That's a great explanation. I was visualizing the signals given consecutively one after the other so that you would have a total of four signals for the 1st and 2nd serves. I was worried that this might cause confusion for the server.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by papa

Incidently, signals (there are many versions, KK illustrated one) are not used by everyone - some prefer a more spontaneous system where they "go" when they feel they have the edge. Of course, ball/returner placement becomes a key here. Regardless of whether signals are used, the net man should be a big factor and go after a high percentage of returns - like maybe 25 - 35%.

I also don't see the "I" as a poach although you would hope, obviously, that you can intercept the return of service. I think it primarily takes the returner out of thinking a crosscourt return of service is safe.

I completely agree about prefering spontaneous poaches, although it can let a lazy netman not poach enough. But I play with various partners so I have to go with the flow, personally.

True the I is not a true "poach", but it is a called shift, whether or not the ball goes that way or not is a seperate issue. Of course on a typical called poach, the players shift regardless of where the return goes also.

[dmastous]

Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl

Tennissiz - I only just found this thread. I hope you two are having fun working on different tactics.


I teach my HS Boys to use the same signals I've used since my own HS partner and I played. One signal communicates it all:

The THUMB is the Poach / No Poach indicator:
Tumb OUT = Poach
In = No Poach
Waggle = Fake.

The FINGERS are the location indicator:
Fist = Jam
First (or First and Second together: some people seem to be less able to manipulate one finger) = Up the T
Fingers all open = Wide.

- KK

My indicators are much simpler.
Closed fist = no poach either serve
1 index finger = poach only on the first serve
2 (index and middle) fingers = poach only on the second serve
open hand = poach on both serves.

I've never seen a reason to indicate a fake. If I say I'm not poaching I feel that's enough. But it's probably a good idea to warn the partner.
Having said all that, it's been a long time since I've played a competative match.
At this time I'm only playing the occasional social doubles. So no signals. Just targets of opportunity.

[Kaptain Karl]

Originally Posted by dmastous

My indicators are much simpler....

Good ones. I have been plagued with a series of partners who -- if left to their own devices on serve -- would serve Wide 85% of the time. (I'm "old school" on this. I still say serving wide handcuffs the Netman too much. Ron Waite (sp?) -- for one -- disagrees with me. "Okay.") Hence, my signals give the Netman more "say".

At this time ... Just targets of opportunity.

Snort!!! I like that!

- KK

[dmastous]

Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl

Good ones. I have been plagued with a series of partners who -- if left to their own devices on serve -- would serve Wide 85% of the time. (I'm "old school" on this. I still say serving wide handcuffs the Netman too much. Ron Waite (sp?) -- for one -- disagrees with me. "Okay.") Hence, my signals give the Netman more "say".

It should be assumed that if net player intends to poach, that the server should not serve wide. I'm in your camp on that issue 100%.

Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl

Snort!!! I like that!

- KK

You should watch that, you might hit someone.

[papa]

Want to have some fun playing against team that signals - and I think as KK does that its about a 50-50 thing these days.

Assuming your the net guy receiving team, just prior to the serve but after signals have been acknowledged, turn and say something to your partner, the server in a voice that can be heard (at least by the netman), something like "its on", "watch the alley", "switch" (kinda my favorite), "watch the line" and so forth. Of course your partner has to know that these mean nothing and your going to carry on as usual. If the serving team is rather new to signals or not quite sure of things, it really throws them off. Of course there are times when you really do want to convey certain things so make sure, as a team, you know the difference.

You can also change positions a little after the signal is acknowledged and this throws off some teams. Just make sure you do these things "after" the signal is acknowledged by the server and don't make a big deal of it.

Its not too dissimilar to little chats after a point (keep them short) when you huddle and say (so it can't be heard) basically "how you doing" or "get this one back and I'll put in a good word with the girlfriend/wife", "nice day but it might snow tomorrow" etc something light and brief - you know just a little stall. Amazing at how some teams just don't know how to handle these little stall sessions which they conclude "must" be tactical in nature. A little like the double signal stuff KK was talking about - some of it is "usefull" while some is just plain drible. Give a few positive shakes of the head also.

Amazing that long after the match is over, you'll have players say something like "what did you guys see during that such and such game - were we giving away signals", "what did you guys pick up", ? Of course you have to play the poker hand here and just side step the question.