Twist and kick serves

A twist serve should end with your arm coming down on your right side and not crossing your body

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by TennsDog

Well it isn't the spin that dictates a twist serve. If it doesn't kick and twist, then it wasn't a twist serve.

Well, of course they kick and twist. The question is how much to be obvious on a 36 inch screen that is showing > 100 feet of real estate.

[TennsDog]

Originally Posted by noah

A twist serve should end with your arm coming down on your right side and not crossing your body

Not true. The first part of the follow-through should have your racket pronated out to a degree as to be to your right and pointing down, but the momentum of the arm and shoulder should bring the racket at least in front of your body anyway.

[travlerajm]

Guys, listen to TennsDog. He knows what he's talking about. I agree with all of his posts on this subject.

I'd like to add that the main difference between a kick serve that kicks to the right (twist) and a kick serve that kicks to the left (topspin slice) is the magnitude of topspin component of the spin. The more vertical racquet head speed you have, the more the ball will grip the ground, making it more likely to kick to the right (twist). Most people overestimate the amount of topspin they are hitting on their serves - they think they are hitting 7 to 1, when in reality they are contacting the ball more like 8 to 2. A serve struck across the back of the ball in the 8 to 2 direction will kick to the left (topspin slice), while a serve struck in the 7 to 1 direction will usually grab the ground better and kick to the right (twist). In other words, there is very little difference between these two service motions other than the toss location and how far you arch back to hit it.

True kick serve artists like Edberg, Becker, Rafter, and Sampras could use the same toss to make the ball kick either left or right. So even if the returner can read where it's going to bounce, he still doesn't know which direction it's going to bounce.

[JohnMatrix]

Originally Posted by TennsDog

Not true. The first part of the follow-through should have your racket pronated out to a degree as to be to your right and pointing down, but the momentum of the arm and shoulder should bring the racket at least in front of your body anyway.

Tennsdog thinks hes pro but hes not. Don't listen to everything he says....rofl hes trying to make rules now? There are no rules. If you want to follow through between your legs then do it. And yeah, the twist serve is so useless vs pros that players like AGASSI used it......Go ahead and tell me im wrong, I saw him do it in person 100 times.....Unless you plan on going pro don't decide what and what not to learn. (then again if youre going pro you should pretty much learn everything) You have your whole life to play and teach yourself.

[TennsDog]

Originally Posted by JohnMatrix

Tennsdog thinks hes pro but hes not. Don't listen to everything he says....rofl hes trying to make rules now? There are no rules. If you want to follow through between your legs then do it. And yeah, the twist serve is so useless vs pros that players like AGASSI used it......Go ahead and tell me im wrong, I saw him do it in person 100 times.....Unless you plan on going pro don't decide what and what not to learn. (then again if youre going pro you should pretty much learn everything) You have your whole life to play and teach yourself.

Again, thanks for the personal attacks. No, I don't think I'm a pro, nor do I ever want to be. I do, however, think I have knowledge and experience that can help a lot of people here. I'm not sure about your remark about "rules," so I can't comment on that. If pros use it, ok, that's fine. I'll admit I don't know as much specifically about the pro game as I do the game in general. I don't know why everyone is so obsessed with comparing to the pros anyway. Twist serves are quite effective when used properly on sub-pro levels regardless of what pros do with them. I never said the twist wasn't worth learning. I said it is very effective and IS worth learning. I don't know why you're being so antagonistic here. It simply isn't necessary.

[newnuse]

A good twist serve is devastating. It's not seen very often and people just have problems adjusting to it. I play with a buddy that has a very good twist serve. It's almost impossible to return with any consitency. I haven't seen a single person handle his serve.

I've also played against a lefty with a average twist serve. Being a lefty it kicked to my FH. Despite it kicking to my FH, I still had trouble with it. You just don't see many twist serves so people don't handle it well.

My twist serve is average at best and people have trouble returning it. I've played matches where I only used my twist serve on the add court. Some guys just can't it.

Of course, the best twist serve I've seen is Edberg. Edberg was different from other pros in that he used it almost exclusively. Normally they mix their serves so that their opponent doesn't get used to it, but Edberg's twist serve was so good, he used it almost exclusively as I recall.

Andre Agassi has a terrifc twist serve to the add court. It doesn't kick as high as most, like Edberg's.... but Andre's really moves to the right. It drives his opponent way off the court.

I think it's still very effective on the rec or pro level and definitely worth learning if you can. Depending on your technique, it could be bad for the back though. Some people arch their backs and really snap the body into it. My twist is mostly arm and knee action..... it's much easier on the back but not as effective.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by Thunderace

Hit up... very interesting... do you pronate after hitting? Where does the follow-through go, I would think finishing rather to my right (I'm a righty) than to the left, a little bit like Edberg did it... I don't remember about Rafter, I'm sure he had a pretty insane twister as well.

A good kick/twist serve requires big time pronation. Pretty much directly out to the side. Check out how Federer prontates out to the side here:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/kicker_example.php

Jeff

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by Thunderace

Hit up... very interesting... do you pronate after hitting? Where does the follow-through go, I would think finishing rather to my right (I'm a righty) than to the left, a little bit like Edberg did it... I don't remember about Rafter, I'm sure he had a pretty insane twister as well.

A good kick/twist serve requires big time pronation. Pretty much directly out to the side. Check out how Federer prontates out to the side here. He almost "catches" the ball in his strings, and then torques and pronates his hand, wrist, and forearm out to the side.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/kicker_example.php

Jeff

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by JCo872

A good kick/twist serve requires big time pronation. [/url]

Not necessarily. The service motion should generate high acceleration upward and with full extension as its primary objective. The arm will naturally "pronate". However, hyper-pronation isn't a good idea for people who haven't fully developed their arms, do all the right things to avoid elbow problems, etc.

Federer's a world class athlete with a lot of help taking care of his arm.

One can strive for more and more pronation, but its a process that one should evolve naturally into based on one's ability.

An excellent 3.0-4.5 level kick serve can be achieved without tons of pronation.

Focus on acceleration upward and full extension first.

[FuriousYellow]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Well, plenty of Pros hit twist serves, the reason noone recognizes them as such is that they are hit so hard (even as second serves) that the forward speed overwhelmes the spin motion and there isn't much "kick" or "twist" to the trajectory in reality.

Plus it's very hard to see the twist action on it from the viewing angle we see on TV. The time you can really see it is when they hit one down the line on the deuce side.

In addition to Roddick, I think Ljubicic has an excellent twist serve as well.

[shindemac]

Yea, I wish I could have recorded my kick serve the other day. It was the best day of serving I had so far this summer. Most of my serves were kicking up and hitting the fence 3 feet high in one bounce. I'm only a 3.5, so I know others my level can get a decent kick serve. Only thing is that it took me a long time to achieve it. It'll prob take me another summer before I can own this serve, and get my consistency up to 95%. I think when I do that, I'll be able to place it where I want too. Too bad the rest of my game is starting to lag behind and even decline.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

Not necessarily. The service motion should generate high acceleration upward and with full extension as its primary objective. The arm will naturally "pronate". However, hyper-pronation isn't a good idea for people who haven't fully developed their arms, do all the right things to avoid elbow problems, etc.

Federer's a world class athlete with a lot of help taking care of his arm.

One can strive for more and more pronation, but its a process that one should evolve naturally into based on one's ability.

An excellent 3.0-4.5 level kick serve can be achieved without tons of pronation.

Focus on acceleration upward and full extension first.

I would never teach the twist serve to anyone who didn't already have a great serve motion to begin with. So I agree with you there. And yes acceleration upward is so important along with full extension. Totally agree. It's just that to get the ball to jump up and out to the side, you have pronate out to the right or the ball with definitely not kick out to the side. It will just be topspin. Your points are well taken though. Accelerate upward, full extension, and experiment with pronation if you want to get more kick. Good stuff.

[FuriousYellow]

Originally Posted by JCo872

He almost "catches" the ball in his strings, and then torques and pronates his hand, wrist, and forearm out to the side.

Jeff

Another great analogy/visual Jeff. I have noticed recently on the serves where I'm able to get a lot of action on the ball, it does feel like I'm catching it momentarily and throwing it off my racquet. If I brush off it quickly it doesn't do much.

Do you have any other analogies for controlling the placement of topspin serves? I can control my flat and slice serves, but I can't seem to place my kick serves anywhere but in the middle of the service box.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by FuriousYellow

Another great analogy/visual Jeff. I have noticed recently on the serves where I'm able to get a lot of action on the ball, it does feel like I'm catching it momentarily and throwing it off my racquet. If I brush off it quickly it doesn't do much.

Do you have any other analogies for controlling the placement of topspin serves? I can control my flat and slice serves, but I can't seem to place my kick serves anywhere but in the middle of the service box.

Awesome! You had the same experience as me.

I remember when I first got the twist serve. I had been trying to accelerate too quickly into the ball and ended up just brushing it, like you said. Once I held back and almost grabbed the ball and then torqued it out, it was unbelievable.

Here is Safin doing the same thing:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/v...in_example.php

I know that Safin is another world class athlete like Federer, but my point is just to reconfirm what FuriousYellow pointed out. There is a certain way to come into the ball and then pronate to get big time action. Most people swing very fast, but don't get the "bite" into the ball that produces big speed and spin. Most people just brush or spin over the ball, without getting that bite between strings and ball.

I'm not saying you can jump on the court and start serving like Fed or Safin. But I am saying that you should experiment with how you come into and leave the ball and not just on pure acceleration. A good analogy Doug King uses is the gears on bike. If you pedal not in gear, the chain will just spin. If you first get in gear (get good connection between the teeth in the chain and the gear) and THEN pedal, that's when the bike will really go. In my opinion on the serve most people accelerate TOO SOON and end up not getting good connection between ball and strings first. This is true on groundstrokes and volleys as well.

Do this as an exercise. Look at the Safin video and go frame by frame to contact and stop. I think you can see that there isn't much acceleration into the ball contact. If he just stopped there, the ball wouldn't go anywhere. But boy there is a lot of action from contact on.

Just my 2 cents.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by FuriousYellow

Do you have any other analogies for controlling the placement of topspin serves? I can control my flat and slice serves, but I can't seem to place my kick serves anywhere but in the middle of the service box.

I don't know if this helps, but my best wide kick serves to ad include me visualizing the ball going wide and short into the doubles alley, yet when I let it rip and trust the spin, it kicks wide near the service side line short in the box with a lot of side kick.

Feels like I'm conciously hitting off the court, but spin keeps in it.

Maybe put a target out in the doubles alley, and practice at hitting it but your spin doesn't let you, it pulls it in.

Now, with a little work you can place your kick serve wide to ad with consistency.

[FuriousYellow]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

I don't know if this helps, but my best wide kick serves to ad include me visualizing the ball going wide and short into the doubles alley, yet when I let it rip and trust the spin, it kicks wide near the service side line short in the box with a lot of side kick.

Feels like I'm conciously hitting off the court, but spin keeps in it.

Maybe put a target out in the doubles alley, and practice at hitting it but your spin doesn't let you, it pulls it in.

Now, with a little work you can place your kick serve wide to ad with consistency.

Interesting. I'll give that a try. Thanks!

[mahouFuji]

Originally Posted by tnig469

The ball for the kick serve will land where ur suppose 2 direct it...like u want to hit a kick serve out wide in a certain spot...u aim for that spot....and the twist is suppose to have a slicing and kicking motion...so that means that for a right handed person the ball would curve to the left and bounce to the right....a kick serve is accomplished by changing the contact point and some what brushing up the ball from about 7 o'clock to about 12 or 1.....the twist serve is harder to do...i really dont use it...

right on!! im trying to twist but its so slow..... 50mph........ but i like kick better its kinda cooler and bounces higher

[BiGGieStuFF]

I can handle the serves that kick high but what do you guys do on lefty serves that have major sidespin? I was made the fool last night by a buddy of mine with his lefty sidespin serve. Is it better to try and take those type of serves early? or hang back a little and let the spin take effect and judge your return from there.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by BiGGieStuFF

I can handle the serves that kick high but what do you guys do on lefty serves that have major sidespin? I was made the fool last night by a buddy of mine with his lefty sidespin serve. Is it better to try and take those type of serves early? or hang back a little and let the spin take effect and judge your return from there.

I try to take step in and take those things as soon as reasonably possible before the spin takes over unless they are hit really hard.

When they aren't hit too fast, you have the time to neutralize the spin, the ball still has pace taking them early, and you get better contact with the ball that isn't crossing your racquets path (hasn't much time to curve) and you aren't pulled out of position with a big recovery to deal with.

I use the rule of thumb that I would prefer to take all serves early (if I get a chance when the pace isn't extreme).