Double Bend FH

[coolblue123]

Hi there 2 quick questions:

I want to learn how to hit a Double Bend Forehand. Is there a good website which has some video's on how to do this?

Also, if there's a Double Bend FH, could their be a Double Bend Backhand as well?

Thanks for responding

[mdhubert]

www.tennisplayer.net
there is no double-bend BH because the double-bend is supposed to create support at contact, on BH you need a straight arm at contact or both arms on 2HBH (enough resistance at contact on both case).

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by coolblue123

Hi there 2 quick questions:

I want to learn how to hit a Double Bend Forehand. Is there a good website which has some video's on how to do this?

Also, if there's a Double Bend FH, could their be a Double Bend Backhand as well?

Thanks for responding

I explain the double bend in-depth on my site: http://www.hi-techtennis.com. Here is a preview:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

[Tennismastery]

Originally Posted by JCo872

I explain the double bend in-depth on my site: http://www.hi-techtennis.com. Here is a preview:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I would offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne to compliment your excellent info.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/...ewsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by Tennismastery

Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/...ewsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

Wow. That is fantastic Dave! I read your article before, but I hadn't seen this newsletter. That is exactly what I talk about..."maintaining the integrity of the double bend" You are absolutely right. People feel they have to "break out" of the double bend by snapping or rolling their wrist too early and thus destroying the integrity of the double bend. The release comes after driving through the ball.

For anyone reading this thread, check out Dave's newsletter on the double bend. It's pure gold.

Jeff

[limitup]

I'm just a newbie so I'm not agruing either way, but it almost seems as if there would be more support if the arm was practically straight - for example the way Federer hits 99% of his shots.

With the wrist laid back, at contact the force of the ball hitting the strings can't move the wrist because there is nowhere for it to go. Why not apply the same principle to the elbow? How does a bent elbow provide more support than a straight arm? If anything it seems a straight arm would provide more support and stability.

Personally I find I'm more consistent with a straighter arm, and laid back wrist.

[JohnYandell]

Hey Dave,

Great concept, now I wonder, where did that term originate? Good to see it's passed into the lexicon, but a little acknowledgement of the source wouldn't hurt.

John

[Lsmkenpo]

Originally Posted by limitup

I'm just a newbie so I'm not agruing either way, but it almost seems as if there would be more support if the arm was practically straight - for example the way Federer hits 99% of his shots.

With the wrist laid back, at contact the force of the ball hitting the strings can't move the wrist because there is nowhere for it to go. Why not apply the same principle to the elbow? How does a bent elbow provide more support than a straight arm? If anything it seems a straight arm would provide more support and stability.

Personally I find I'm more consistent with a straighter arm, and laid back wrist.

As the elbow moves farther away from the body you lose leverage and control.
Have someone grab your wrist and try to pull free like you were taking a swing, with your arm straight. Now try the same moition with your elbow tucked tight to your body. Bent elbow has alot more power and control.

[limitup]

In your example I think that is only true if you focus on rotating your shoulder and pulling across your body. This is not what should be happening before and at contact, so I'm not sure that explains it.

[Lsmkenpo]

Originally Posted by limitup

In your example I think that is only true if you focus on rotating your shoulder and pulling across your body. This is not what should be happening before and at contact, so I'm not sure that explains it.

Oh, I guess you just want to swing with all arm than.

[Tennismastery]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Hey Dave,

Great concept, now I wonder, where did that term originate? Good to see it's passed into the lexicon, but a little acknowledgement of the source wouldn't hurt.

John

Hi John,

Which term or concept are you referring to? If there is something that I presented that can be identified as something completely original (and documented) by someone else, I will be very happy to acknowledge it's original source. Everything that I have learned is a culmination of my 33 years of teaching and learning...from people like you, as well as my father, as well as those who I learn from at conventions and my own students.

I have always tried to acknowledge any conceptual idea that is-or has been-origniated by someone else. It would be quite impossible for you or me or any legitimate teaching professional to quote every single source of our knowledge in every specific situation...especially in such a loose forum as this.

But, that is not to say that I would be very happy to acknowledge you or anyone else here when and where appropriate. If someone used my 'key phrases' that I coined in my book, such as 'keep the plane the same' and 'hit and hold' and others, such phrases are so simple and inert that I don't think I would expect anyone to acknowledge my book or articles where I have introduced such phrases over the last 8 years. (And, I have to believe that there were others before me that may have used such phrases in their teaching ....that just were never published prior to my use of such verbiage.)

Anyway, let me know if there is something I mentioned that was previously introduced. I have to think that similar minds will probably use similar terminology. Such is probably the case as I usually write y articles and speak at conventions in an 'off the cuff' manner that is built around all that I have learned.

Capish?

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by Tennismastery

Hi John,

Which term or concept are you referring to? If there is something that I presented that can be identified as something completely original (and documented) by someone else, I will be very happy to acknowledge it's original source. Everything that I have learned is a culmination of my 33 years of teaching and learning...from people like you, as well as my father, as well as those who I learn from at conventions and my own students.

I have always tried to acknowledge any conceptual idea that is-or has been-origniated by someone else. It would be quite impossible for you or me or any legitimate teaching professional to quote every single source of our knowledge in every specific situation...especially in such a loose forum as this.

But, that is not to say that I would be very happy to acknowledge you or anyone else here when and where appropriate. If someone used my 'key phrases' that I coined in my book, such as 'keep the plane the same' and 'hit and hold' and others, such phrases are so simple and inert that I don't think I would expect anyone to acknowledge my book or articles where I have introduced such phrases over the last 8 years. (And, I have to believe that there were others before me that may have used such phrases in their teaching ....that just were never published prior to my use of such verbiage.)

Anyway, let me know if there is something I mentioned that was previously introduced. I have to think that similar minds will probably use similar terminology. Such is probably the case as I usually write y articles and speak at conventions in an 'off the cuff' manner that is built around all that I have learned.

Capish?

The first time I ever heard of the double bend was in John's article, called "The Myth of the Wrist: The Modern Pro Forehand", which was published on TennisOne several years ago. John writes:

"We refer to this position-elbow in and wrist laid back-the double bend or "power palm" position. It enables the player to use the palm of his hand to push the racket forward and upward generating power and spin."

I had never heard of this concept before reading the article, and I attribute the description and concept 100% to John.

After John identified this key component to the forehand, I realized that the goal of tennis instructors was to understand it and teach it, which is a challenge in and of itself. Tennismastery did a very fine job of doing this in his newsletter. But as far as I know, the term originated with John's study of high-speed video, and I have always attributed the concept to his article, The Myth of the Wrist. I had never heard of this position before, anywhere, any time, and I had read and studied pretty much everything out there.

Ever since John wrote "The Myth of the Wrist" article, I have used it as a kind of "bible" of forehand instruction. I regard that article as the seminal article on modern forehand technique. He shows how Haas and Agassi both keep their wrists back through contact as they push and lift through the ball. He also shows how you can rotate the entire structure while keeping the hand back. The price of membership to tenniplayer.net is worth that one article alone, in my opinion.

So to conclude, it seems clear to me that John invented the term. The term is so good and so important, in fact, that it has slipped into common tennis terminology. I applaud anyone that furthers our concept of this term, with full recognition that it all started with "The Myth of the Wrist".

[Tennismastery]

Originally Posted by JCo872

The first time I ever heard of the double bend was in John's article, called "The Myth of the Wrist: The Modern Pro Forehand", which was published on TennisOne several years ago. John writes:

"We refer to this position-elbow in and wrist laid back-the double bend or "power palm" position. It enables the player to use the palm of his hand to push the racket forward and upward generating power and spin."

I had never heard of this concept before reading the article, and I attribute the description and concept 100% to John.

After John identified this key component to the forehand, I realized that the goal of tennis instructors was to understand it and teach it, which is a challenge in and of itself. Tennismastery did a very fine job of doing this in his newsletter. But as far as I know, the term originated with John's study of high-speed video, and I have always attributed the concept to his article, The Myth of the Wrist. I had never heard of this position before, anywhere, any time, and I had read and studied pretty much everything out there.

Ever since John wrote "The Myth of the Wrist" article, I have used it as a kind of "bible" of forehand instruction. I regard that article as the seminal article on modern forehand technique. He shows how Haas and Agassi both keep their wrists back through contact as they push and lift through the ball. He also shows how you can rotate the entire structure while keeping the hand back. The price of membership to tenniplayer.net is worth that one article alone, in my opinion.

So to conclude, it seems clear to me that John invented the term. The term is so good and so important, in fact, that it has slipped into common tennis terminology. I applaud anyone that furthers our concept of this term, with full recognition that it all started with "The Myth of the Wrist".

As with so many terms in our vernacular, a term such as the 'double bend' can quickly lose its originator. I wholeheartily agree that John is most likely the first to identify as well as term the 'double bend forehand' but I could not be certain. And, since he is one of the guys I like to refer to as one of the real 'teachers' of our game, I think his input in so many aspects of the game can be called inovative...or at least, responsible, to the point that many of today's teachers can look up to him and his contributions...not just this one phrase.

I honestly didn't know if John was referring to something in my article or just the 'double bend' identification. Someone else started this thread using the 'double bend' terminology...I was just expanding on the description of it in my article. And, since so many have used this phrase in recent time, (just as the phrase 'modern forehand' might have been originated by Brett Hobden for all I know!) I could not know for sure that John was the originator of the phrase 'double bend forehand'...thus not wanting to misinform something I was not sure of.

John, I would be the last person to not recognize you for your contributions...whether they be simple terminology or a full-concept revelation!

Dave

[JohnYandell]

I actually came up with that term for my first book about 15 years ago. I had to invent it because in all my research no one was talking about the shape of the hitting arms. I remember puzzling over how to describe the postion of the elbow and the wrist on the forehand.

The term was also in the article Jeff mentions--plus a couple before that on Tennisone. I did read the newsletter with your extended discussion of it, but no mention of the origin. Not a big deal, really. You must have liked it and picked it up and incorporated it--so that's a good thing.

See you in Vegas?

[Roforot]

Very useful thread. I had never heard of this term before.
Thankyou for that link to the newsletter.
It clicked w/ me why my FH is sometimes so good but then once in a while feels inconsistent. When nervous or in a funk I've broken that bend, especially when hitting a hard flat ball or down the line. That video of Dave rolling the arm feels like what I do, trying to overmuscle the ball. I'm glad I'm hitting today so I can look at this.

[Tennismastery]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

I actually came up with that term for my first book about 15 years ago. I had to invent it because in all my research no one was talking about the shape of the hitting arms. I remember puzzling over how to describe the postion of the elbow and the wrist on the forehand.

The term was also in the article Jeff mentions--plus a couple before that on Tennisone. I did read the newsletter with your extended discussion of it, but no mention of the origin. Not a big deal, really. You must have liked it and picked it up and incorporated it--so that's a good thing.

See you in Vegas?

I was really uncertain as to the orgin of the term. I know I had read your book as well as seeing it in some article way back when...but, as with so much of our information, didn't connect its beginnings with you! My humblest apologies! I know you are not concerned with the recognition of it, however, too often in our industry, we take things a bit for granted and even try to assume some ownership of certain concepts, in some cases. I am proud to use your information and will always try to offer some recognition whenever I use it.

I will be in Vega for the first three days, I believe. Since I have taken over as General Manager of our club, my schedule has been whacked out. I will hunt you down when I'm there.

[Mike Cottrill]

Dave, Jeff, John, Great stuff. Can you share why this does not work for the two handed backhand?
Thanks
Mike

[Trinity TC]

Ah-ha! I can add "double bend" to my vocabulary. That will make it easier to teach. I learned a similar concept back in the 70s. My coach (coached by Ashley Cooper's brother, John...but I digress) said that "you Canadians don't know how to hit a big forehand." He had me do the double bend on the backswing which helped consistently set up the racquet head in the proper hitting position as I was drawing it back. It also helped facilitate a smooth angular and linear momentum conversion which improved my timing, consistency and power on the forehand.

It has worked with all of my students whether they have old school grips or the radical modern grips on their forehands.

[Fatmike]

Originally Posted by Tennismastery

Jeff, Great video clips! Thought I would offer this newsletter I did a while back on the double bend for TennisOne to compliment your excellent info.

http://www.tennisone.com/newsletter/...ewsletter.html

Hope it also helps.

Dave

awsome....

I often do the thing that you explain as being the "wrong thing to do"

damn....

but hey, seeing this shoed me what I need to do to correct it.

Thanks

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by mdhubert

www.tennisplayer.net
there is no double-bend BH because the double-bend is supposed to create support at contact, on BH you need a straight arm at contact or both arms on 2HBH (enough resistance at contact on both case).

If the 2h-BH is a a "lefty" FH choked up (w/ right hand there for a ride), then shouldn't one hit it the same way w/ a bend in both arms?
If not what would be an analagous checkpoint to look at to verify one is swinging rather than muscling the stroke?