Which pro has the best serve action to copy?
- Thread starter men8ifr
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pfrischmann
Professional
I think Fed has a very simple and classic motion. His arms are a little more "up together" than some pros who really delay the racquet arm (Djoker). Not good or bad but I think delaying the racquet hand is a little harder. It's also a little easier to emulate than Sampras's motion which is beautiful but Pete really turns away from the net on his toss/loading phase. Even most pros do not do it as much as Pete. It's very hard.
As pointed out earlier, Start with a motion and rhythm that feels good to you, then look for similarities.
As pointed out earlier, Start with a motion and rhythm that feels good to you, then look for similarities.
TupeloDanger
Professional
Federer and Sampras are nice because they're probably the two most heavily-analyzed you'll find, and of the two, Federer's motion is a lot more adaptable for the average human being. Not only infinite clips, but many in high-speed, slow mo, frame-by-frame, etc. Not to mention thousands of pages of written analysis by all sorts of well-meaning instructors, a few of whom are actually helpful.
A couple bonus suggestions: Yannick Noah and Michael Stich. Nowhere near as much info about either, but two really good, clean, simple, explosive service motions. And depending how you learn, a single clip (or a few seconds out of a full match recording) may be all the video you ever need. Worth looking up.
A couple bonus suggestions: Yannick Noah and Michael Stich. Nowhere near as much info about either, but two really good, clean, simple, explosive service motions. And depending how you learn, a single clip (or a few seconds out of a full match recording) may be all the video you ever need. Worth looking up.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
If you want a very simple, abbreviated motion, consider a couple of (somewhat) recently-retired pros -- Todd Martin and Jeff Salzenstein.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrU6C8eilkI&t=77s
Note that Federer, Sampras, Djokovic, Martin and Salzenstein all use a platform stance. If you are so inclined, you might consider a pinpoint stance. Andy Murray and many others use this. Many find the balance and mechanics a little but trickier than the platform stance. But some find that it feels more natural for them. Another option is to go with a narrow platform (or a wide pinpoint) as characterized by Andy Roddick and Gael Monfils
Even tho' the abbreviated motion is fairly simple for many pro and non-pro servers, some rec players find it difficult to implement. Not sure why this is. They just seem to have trouble coordinating the 2 arms. If this is the case for you, you might want to use more of a full (classic) windup. Or a staggered preparation might be to your liking. Sampras is an extreme example of this latter style. Note that many players find the full/classic style and the staggered style tricky to implement. They often develop hitches in the serve and cannot coordinate their 2 arms properly.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrU6C8eilkI&t=77s
Note that Federer, Sampras, Djokovic, Martin and Salzenstein all use a platform stance. If you are so inclined, you might consider a pinpoint stance. Andy Murray and many others use this. Many find the balance and mechanics a little but trickier than the platform stance. But some find that it feels more natural for them. Another option is to go with a narrow platform (or a wide pinpoint) as characterized by Andy Roddick and Gael Monfils
Even tho' the abbreviated motion is fairly simple for many pro and non-pro servers, some rec players find it difficult to implement. Not sure why this is. They just seem to have trouble coordinating the 2 arms. If this is the case for you, you might want to use more of a full (classic) windup. Or a staggered preparation might be to your liking. Sampras is an extreme example of this latter style. Note that many players find the full/classic style and the staggered style tricky to implement. They often develop hitches in the serve and cannot coordinate their 2 arms properly.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Agreed. While Sampras had one of the best serves ever, his extremely staggered rhythm is not easy to copy or adapt. His racket arm lags quite a bit relative to his tossing arm. I used Sampras as a service model back in the 90s. However, I modified the staggered nature (the extreme lag) to suit my own needs.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Here are some stats on the leading servers.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/leaderboard?page=serve
The 'Serve Rating©' adds four service metrics percentages plus the average number of aces per match and subtracts the average number of double faults per match.
There are some serve histories for Nadal, Djokovic and Federer. Nadal and Djokovic reworked their serves around 2009 or 2010. Federer has had some back issues in recent years. ?
Ellenbecker presents a video on the shoulder and the upper arm-shoulder orientation to use for serving to reduce the risk of impingement. The Ellenbecker video, "Rotator Cuff Injury", have been posted here many times.
Nearly all top ATP servers seem to follow it, judging by shoulder orientation seen at impact. Federer seems questionable to me on this point, his upper arm is high. I don't know the effect of his recent back issue. He has outstanding serving results. Learn to interpret the Ellenbecker video and the ATP shoulder orientations for yourself directly. The Ellenbecker video applies to the high level serving technique. You are on your own for other techniques.
Impact and what was necessary to get the racket head speed at impact usually follow similar biomechanics. The times before Trophy Position in the serve and after impact in the follow through have more variations, optional ways to do it. ?? Before selecting one server as a model, with their individual motions before TP or after impact, study the variety that is out there. Toss height is very important for the variety before Trophy Position.
I like Raonic's serve. I believe that he jumps and lands forward more than the average. He flexes his wrist early before the toss but then straightens it out around Trophy Position. I don't see any function to his wrist angle before TP.
A serious complication is knowing the type of serve that you are looking at. The kick serve should show a signature racket rise before and after impact. The flat and slice serves have about the same racket height, nearer the racket's peak height. The flat and slice may look similar depending on camera angle. These features can only be seen in high speed video, say 240 fps, with small motion blur.
Kinovea allows side-by-side comparisons of servers. You can time the videos so that both rackets arrive at impact at the same time in side-by-side frames. Great for frame-by-frame comparisons. Kinovea is a free open source application and easy to use.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/leaderboard?page=serve
The 'Serve Rating©' adds four service metrics percentages plus the average number of aces per match and subtracts the average number of double faults per match.
There are some serve histories for Nadal, Djokovic and Federer. Nadal and Djokovic reworked their serves around 2009 or 2010. Federer has had some back issues in recent years. ?
Ellenbecker presents a video on the shoulder and the upper arm-shoulder orientation to use for serving to reduce the risk of impingement. The Ellenbecker video, "Rotator Cuff Injury", have been posted here many times.
Nearly all top ATP servers seem to follow it, judging by shoulder orientation seen at impact. Federer seems questionable to me on this point, his upper arm is high. I don't know the effect of his recent back issue. He has outstanding serving results. Learn to interpret the Ellenbecker video and the ATP shoulder orientations for yourself directly. The Ellenbecker video applies to the high level serving technique. You are on your own for other techniques.
Impact and what was necessary to get the racket head speed at impact usually follow similar biomechanics. The times before Trophy Position in the serve and after impact in the follow through have more variations, optional ways to do it. ?? Before selecting one server as a model, with their individual motions before TP or after impact, study the variety that is out there. Toss height is very important for the variety before Trophy Position.
I like Raonic's serve. I believe that he jumps and lands forward more than the average. He flexes his wrist early before the toss but then straightens it out around Trophy Position. I don't see any function to his wrist angle before TP.
A serious complication is knowing the type of serve that you are looking at. The kick serve should show a signature racket rise before and after impact. The flat and slice serves have about the same racket height, nearer the racket's peak height. The flat and slice may look similar depending on camera angle. These features can only be seen in high speed video, say 240 fps, with small motion blur.
Kinovea allows side-by-side comparisons of servers. You can time the videos so that both rackets arrive at impact at the same time in side-by-side frames. Great for frame-by-frame comparisons. Kinovea is a free open source application and easy to use.
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MotoboXer
Professional
Ive seen Groth land a whole 2 feet inside-maybe more
Fed changed his serve 2004-05 sometime, not sure if it was due to the back trouble.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I have tried to copy quite a few of them. My final opinion is the more simple, fewer movements, rolling, the better. So the answer is definitely Djokovic's serve. Yes Federer's and Lopez' serve are beautiful to watch and very effective but it's not easy to do. For example Federer bends over a lot during the ball bounce and suddenly straightens up with a huge racquet take back all of which makes it difficult to coordinate and time. Djokovic stands upright, he doesn't even bring the tossing arm all the way down his leg or knee at the start, so nothing exaggerated. To me that's the perfect serve.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
If you are going to use Novak as a serving model, make sure that you are not looking at his older serves (prior to late 2010). He had some visible flaws in his serve technique prior to 2010/2011. Low elbow during the trophy phase to name one. This is something that I started posting about some 9 years ago. Very inconsistent serving ritual to name another issue. Unfortunately, many of the serving videos that you will find of Novak online are of his older, flawed service action. Here is an analysis than mentions mentions the elbow, as well as some issues:
http://www.optimumtennis.net/novak-djokovic-serve.htm
Altho' Novak's current serve is not quite as big as that Roger or Andy (Murray), it is still an excellent serve motion. Note that Novak's fastest serve are in the low/mid 130s (MPH) whereas Roger and Andy have both clocked serves above 140 MPH. There are quite a few videos online of Roger hitting some redonkulous twist/kick serves as well. One thing that Federer, Murray, Sampras and Nadal does that Djoko does not do, is to keep their head up with their eyes on the ball until contact is made. Novak is not consistent with this. He typically pulls his head down and eyes off the ball some time between his Big L position and his contact. For the average player, I would suggest keeping the eyes on the ball until contact or, at least, very close to contact.
Another thing that Roger, Andy, Rafa, Pete and many other elite servers do is to lift their tossing arm nearly parallel to the baseline. This promotes a very good coiling of the torso, even if the toss is not particularly high. In contrast, Novak lifts his tossing arm more in the direction of the net (or a bit to the right of his target area). We see this with many WTA players who do not get much coil during their serve. While it is not absolutely necessary to toss parallel to the baseline, my suggestion is to lift the arm at some intermediate angle -- say 45 degrees or so wrt to the serve direction. This would be more to the right than Novak does, but not as much as those who lift, more or less, parallel to the baseline.
One relatively minor problem that I see with Novak's serve is that sometimes his left foot lands pointing off to the left a bit more than other elite servers. Most top servers will land such that the left foot lands pretty much in the direction of the serve. This is an indication that they are driving up and forward in the direction of their serve. It also makes it easier for them to follow the serve to the net if they choose to do so. Novak's left-pointing foot is less conducive to following his serve to the net. It also is an indication that he is over-rotating his body somewhat.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
You might be right about the details and minor flaws in his serve and I agree his serve prior to 2010 was just wrong.
What I wanted to say is his serve is nice and simple and very easy to copy at least for my level and athletic ability. I prefer to have a serve that's like 90% similar to Djokovic's rather than 50% like Federer and Lopez. I can imitate their serve motion but it won't be effective or consistent.
What I wanted to say is his serve is nice and simple and very easy to copy at least for my level and athletic ability. I prefer to have a serve that's like 90% similar to Djokovic's rather than 50% like Federer and Lopez. I can imitate their serve motion but it won't be effective or consistent.
oble
Hall of Fame
The one that has the motion that looks closest to what your body feels most comfortable with, and then tweak it so that it feels completely natural to you. If you feel comfortable with a service motion similar to Roger's, then by all means model your serve after his. His motion is fairly simple too.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
I would say no to Roger. Unless you're an elegant athlete it might depress you to compare. I think it depends on your build.
For example, Wawrinka's serve doesn't look elegant and suits a different body type.
For example, Wawrinka's serve doesn't look elegant and suits a different body type.
The best of all time is:
He keeps the motion of the left side of his head for the most part, bending over sideways, so he can go straight up with his elbow/shoulders, for a higher elbow, more kinetic path. He keeps his hand down, for as low and as long as he can for more path, hence the bending over, from a rear ward back scrunch, to a forward back scrunch. Aiding this, as he leg drives up, he then arches his back downwards, to keep the frame hand down longer as it rotates around itself, it stays down, even as he drives upwards, due to the back arch to his left side, allowing his frame hand and frame to stay down longer. The whole reason for bending over so far to the left, is to allow the lower frame hand/for a longer amount of time, to create more kinetic path.
IF you don't understand why he is arching/keeping the hand down, you can't duplicate it. He lags his frame until after leg driving up, to create more whip lash. He stops his motion on top for the same reason, to whip lash forwards/down. EVen after contact, he is still leaning over left, with that forwards back scrunch. Every serve has three functions: twist back;forwards/leg drive down;upwards/move rearward/forwards. No one on earth ever combined all three more/better.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not a huge fan of the Stanimal serve. Not much of a knee bend or a leg drive at all. Elbow a bit high for his trophy phase. While it is not as bad as Tomic in this respect, it is not something that others should emulate. Rec players who try to implement a high elbow like these guys might do it even worse and risk a shoulder impingement.
Don't really like the direction than Stan lifts his tossing arm. It is nearly in line with the direction of his serve. Most elite servers lift the tossing arm close to parallel to the baseline. This might not be easy to emulate for some players. If that is the case, I would recommend lifting the arm at some intermediate angle -- but definitely not in the direction of the serve and many WTA and non-elite players do. The other side of the coin in this is that Wawarinka, like many WTA players, does not achieve a sufficient body/torso coil.
Because of his lack of leg drive and body/torso coil, Stan may be relying in the the strength of his shoulder and arm for his serve power. This is not efficient and might place too much stress on the shoulder/rotator cuff for most players.
Wawa also pulls his head down early. His eyes are looking straight ahead, not up, on contact. Much prefer Federer, Sampras, Murray and Nadal in this respect. Eyes stay on the ball until impact for most of their serves. Much better habit to cultivate for most rec or aspiring players.
The best of all time is:
It may very well be the best of all time but it is probably too difficult for many to copy his high toss and his staggered arm synchronization. His large loop preparation and racket head delay is quite a challenge for many to try to adapt.
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heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
His serve is wonderful and suits his body type.
I have studied his serve and yes, little knee bend and he hardley jumps off the ground. It is true.
I have studied his serve and yes, little knee bend and he hardley jumps off the ground. It is true.
I think Isner has a great motion. If he were 6-3 he would still have a great serve. Feliciano Lopez has a wonderful motion. Might be a bit tough for the average player to duplicate however.
The average 4.0 looking to improve should probably look at Gasquet's serve. It's about as simple as it can get, yet is still pretty effective.
The average 4.0 looking to improve should probably look at Gasquet's serve. It's about as simple as it can get, yet is still pretty effective.
^^^Agree. Learn how to serve and your style will develop on its own. With alot of work it's going to look like another pro just because it looks like a good serve.
Likewise if you become a great singer people will say you sing like so and so.. Well that just means you got good enough..
Likewise if you become a great singer people will say you sing like so and so.. Well that just means you got good enough..
BuildStrikeCosmos
Rookie
Speaking of this, I notice I don't turn my upper body away from the net enough. I notice sampras and federer brings their right arm straight behind almost parallel to the baseline when they start the take-back, whereas I take it back more perpendicular to the baseline. When I try to bring it straight back, I find I lose a bit of balance and it feels abit awkward. At the moment my serve works great and I use it as a weapon but I feel I could probably benefit from abit more upper body rotation by having my upper body facing more towards the back fence. Any recommendations?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Sure, perhaps it does suit his anatomy/body type, but I don't share your assessment as to it's "wonderfulness". To my mind it relies too much on his muscular strength -- especially the strength of his shoulder and arm. He has hit some serves over 140 MPH (225 km/hr). But with his lack of leg drive and lack of coiling of his body/torso, he seems to be getting his massive power/RHS too much from his strong shoulder/arm. For others trying to hit big serves using similar mechanics might be too stressful to the rotator cuff, deltoids and, possibly, other parts of the arm.
I am not suggesting that all rec players and aspiring competitive players necessarily need to employ a huge knee bend and vigorous leg drive when learning the serve. However, I would encourage players to use a model that uses somewhat more knee bend/drive than the Stanimal does.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You don't need to have your torso facing the back fence as McEnroe did. But you could possibly benefit for more coiling than you are currently using. What foot alignment are you using for your service stance? Are they offset somewhat so that your front is across the back foot a bit? Here are some possible starting stances:
What direction are you lifting your tossing arm (left arm if serving right-handed)? Sampras, Federer, and Murray lift the left arm parallel (or nearly parallel) to the baseline. (For Nadal its his right arm, of course). This tossing arm direction facilitates a more generous coiling of the upper body. If you are lifting your tossing arm up in the direction of your intended serve, it may be very difficult to achive much body/torso coil. If lifting your arm parallel to the baseline is too extreme for you, try lifting it at some intermediate angle -- perhaps at 30 to 45 degrees forward of the baseline.
Bad idea to copy the motion of any ONE or TWO pros.
Good idea to develop your serve knowing the motions of 20 pros, taking the parts you need as they apply.
You just cannot decide to serve like Tanner, if you're a long loop swing server with a high toss.
Conversely, practicing Ivan Lendl's serve is absurd if you hit a low toss quick motion serve.
Then it comes down to final details. If you don't have the back bend to start with, you can't copy ANY Pro serve except maybe Stan's.
Good idea to develop your serve knowing the motions of 20 pros, taking the parts you need as they apply.
You just cannot decide to serve like Tanner, if you're a long loop swing server with a high toss.
Conversely, practicing Ivan Lendl's serve is absurd if you hit a low toss quick motion serve.
Then it comes down to final details. If you don't have the back bend to start with, you can't copy ANY Pro serve except maybe Stan's.
pfrischmann
Professional
Where are your feet pointed?
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
You need models with checkpoints--as a start. It's not a matter of "copying" the pros, but more a matter of studying them to develop these checkpoints and comparing your approximation of them to your model. My opinion is Fed shows most of them more clearly and is a good basis for describing the positions that apply across more levels. Such as arm shape in windup, coordination of trophy position with arm extension and leg loading, racket drop, toss/ball position, contact on left to right and back to front axis, hand arm and racket rotation in upward swing, balanced landing with moderate kick back, full across the body finish--and just a great feeling of relaxation, yet explosion if that makes any sense. I also like platform stances and body turn away from the ball although obviously great servers do use pinpoints. But here is an example of modifying pro models, starting with a less extreme foot offset in the stance and with the back toe probably not turned so much away from the baseline.
Have used these elements in side by side video analysis with positive results with players from many levels.
Have used these elements in side by side video analysis with positive results with players from many levels.
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10isMaestro
Semi-Pro
Personally, I like how Roddick played his serve. You adopt a narrow, yet comfortable stance, toss and set as you would for an overhead. His rhythm is very fast, but you can send the ball a tad higher to suit your needs. Hitting with an abbreviated motion is like practicing serve for your first time, except you do bother to bend your knees and get a full shoulder turn.
In my opinion, its simplicity makes it a good choice, but some people do find the longer preparation useful to get a proper rhythm. In my case, I just constantly screw up the arm movements, so I got rid of the whole takeback entirely. I'll definitely stick to that type of motion.
In your case, you have to try a few things and see if one kind of swing feels easier than another. It's all about getting the rhythm right so you can repeat the whole thing all the time.
In my opinion, its simplicity makes it a good choice, but some people do find the longer preparation useful to get a proper rhythm. In my case, I just constantly screw up the arm movements, so I got rid of the whole takeback entirely. I'll definitely stick to that type of motion.
In your case, you have to try a few things and see if one kind of swing feels easier than another. It's all about getting the rhythm right so you can repeat the whole thing all the time.
10isMaestro
Semi-Pro
Some pros do make incredible things when they play. They bend very low, turn a lot and, when in play after that serve, stand often very wide... If I go anywhere that far in my movements, I'd slow down. Trying it once gets you to appreciate just how explosive they are on the court when serving, running, hitting, etc.
BuildStrikeCosmos
Rookie
same way as Federer for both deuce and ad side. However, unlike him, instead of taking the racquet straight behind him, I seem to take my racquet out to my right or in other words, he starts his takeback parallel to his hips and thighs naturally allowing upper body to turn more towards back fence (more evident in his ad serve) and coil. Whereas my takeback is more perpendicular to my hips and thighs, lifting up to my right.
men8ifr
Semi-Pro
OK so thanks for the suggestions so far - I've had a look at a few other serves and Djokovic appears to have the most similar serve to mine - platform stance - not too much turn (facing away from the net) and he seems to collapse/bend over after serving same as me - so would try to focus on my differences to him a better starting point than Roger (who has more turn back to net stays very tall after serving).
I will endevour to look at all the suggestions given though to try and understand some different pro's serves.
I will endevour to look at all the suggestions given though to try and understand some different pro's serves.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Shoulder injuries usually come from impingement which is not taking place in his motion.
He has an excellent serve with an excellent finish. There is a reason we practice pronation drills --most of the power comes from this. The legs add to that. There is leg drive in Stan's motion but what he has taught us is that the Becker deep knee-bend and arching of the back are not necessary. I have to say I cringe when people really arch their back, pain awaits them.
We should note that in recent years Djokovic has had more trouble with Wawrinka's serve than Federer's so elegance and beauty isn't always more effective. Stan's rough-hewn build and technique creates a heavy ball that's hard for Djoker to read.
If the players are the true teachers we should learn from what Stan has developed. Deep knee bend, over arching the back and leaping a foot off the ground are just not necessary even at 6' tall. Quote this for truth.
He has an excellent serve with an excellent finish. There is a reason we practice pronation drills --most of the power comes from this. The legs add to that. There is leg drive in Stan's motion but what he has taught us is that the Becker deep knee-bend and arching of the back are not necessary. I have to say I cringe when people really arch their back, pain awaits them.
We should note that in recent years Djokovic has had more trouble with Wawrinka's serve than Federer's so elegance and beauty isn't always more effective. Stan's rough-hewn build and technique creates a heavy ball that's hard for Djoker to read.
If the players are the true teachers we should learn from what Stan has developed. Deep knee bend, over arching the back and leaping a foot off the ground are just not necessary even at 6' tall. Quote this for truth.
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pfrischmann
Professional
I'm having a tough time following that but I think it's me not you. Two Things I found useful is Jeff Salzensteins "elbow the enemy" tip and I noticed that Roger's tossing hand starts from just inside his thigh and goes ever so slightly diagonal as he releases by his eyes. this allows the ball to go into the court yet his arm is pretty much parallel with the baseline. As a bonus, His tossing arm ends up very close to his face when he is in the trophy position, which when I do it right, keeps me closed longer.
This combined with keeping the racquet arm up in the classic Federer tropy pose makes all the difference for me.
I hope that all makes sense.
kingcheetah
Hall of Fame
I think Serena's serve doesn't get enough credit-- very simple yet technically sound. I'd watch her for pinpoint, Fed for platform.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
As I cautioned earlier, many of the videos of Novak's serve online are of his very flawed serve prior to 2010/2011. You don't want to look at his serves from early 2010 or earlier.
Even with his current serve, I would encourage you to lift your tossing arm somewhat to the right of the target area (the serve direction) -- assuming a right-handed server. Do not lift the arm in the same direction that you intend to to serve. You many get no torso/body coil at all if you lift the ball toss in that direction.
And I would strongly encourage you to use a bit more coil than Novak does. Even if you don't want to use as much as Federer, Sampras and other elite servers do. Once you've developed your serve more, I consider adding even more coil like Federer does.
WildVolley
Legend
I'm a fan of Goran Ivanisevic's first serve, though I don't use it as a precise model. Some of the things I like are the low toss (probably too low for most to emulate), the direct motion starting with his weight on his rear foot and moving it forward during the swing (though I don't use the pinpoint), and a simple continuous movement without a noticeable pause at trophy that doesn't seem rushed.
My take-away from the Goran serve is that it is best to simplify the motion and limit moving parts. Goran was known for hitting aces and he admitted he was specifically targeting lines with his serves. He had to have a consistent motion to be that precise. I believe his low toss, for example, allowed him to toss more precisely and therefore make his movement much more consistent from serve to serve.
My take-away from the Goran serve is that it is best to simplify the motion and limit moving parts. Goran was known for hitting aces and he admitted he was specifically targeting lines with his serves. He had to have a consistent motion to be that precise. I believe his low toss, for example, allowed him to toss more precisely and therefore make his movement much more consistent from serve to serve.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Shoulder injuries usually come from impingement which is not taking place in his motion.
He has an excellent serve with an excellent finish. There is a reason we practice pronation drills --most of the power comes from this. The legs add to that. There is leg drive in Stan's motion but what he has taught us is that the Becker deep knee-bend and arching of the back are not necessary. I have to say I cringe when people really arch their back, pain awaits them.
We should note that in recent years Djokovic has had more trouble with Wawrinka's serve than Federer's so elegance and beauty isn't always more effective. Stan's rough-hewn build and technique creates a heavy ball that's hard for Djoker to read.
If the players are the true teachers we should learn from what Stan has developed. Deep knee bend, over arching the back and leaping a foot off the ground are just not necessary even at 6' tall. Quote this for truth.
QFT? A rather distorted version of truth perhaps. Where to start?
Shoulder impingement is hardly the only rotator/shoulder injury in competitive tennis. I have both deltoid and rotator (ESR) issues in my preferred shoulder -- and neither are impingement issues. I have known/played with others who have had shoulder issues that are also not impingement issues. Quite a few pro players have experienced various shoulder injuries. I do not believe that all of them were impingement issues. Sports that involve repetitive overhand "throwing" motions can be stressful to the shoulder in a variety of ways. Here are some of the various shoulder issues found in tennis:
http://www.wtatennis.com/health/article/2143216/title/shoulder-injuries-in-tennis
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/phys-ed-how-to-fix-a-bad-tennis-shoulder/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577490/
And, I hate to break it to you, but Wawrinka has already experienced shoulder problems. Just last year he was talking about shoulder issues at Wimbledon. He also had to pull out of the Swiss Open (Gstaad) with a shoulder injury last year. I'd provide you links on both of these but I bet that you can probably find them own your own.
In my previous post I had indicated several reasons that Stan was putting extra demands/stress on his shoulder. A shoulder impingement might be one of the possibilities in his case. His high elbow in the images below, suggest this as a possibility.
Granted, this is not super-high, Certainly not as high as we've seen with Tomic. And, Stan's elbow drops a bit just prior to his racket drop. So it's not quite as bad as it could be. However, non-elite players attempting to copy Stan's "simple" motion might pick up on the high position and implement it (consciously or unconsciously) with an elbow position that is somewhat higher and, in their case, the elbow might not drop to a more suitable position, prior to the drop. Repeated implementation of this non-optimal elbow position could very well lead to a shoulder impingement.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
You are being disingenuous. I never said impingement was the only shoulder injury but it shows the type of poster you are.
If you're too rigid to learn from Wawrinka, well, all I can say is it makes sense reading your posts.
I would recommend being more fluid in your thinking because you're stuck in the mud.
Again, Stan proves a dramatic knee-bend, over-arching of the back and jumping a foot off the ground are not necessary to having a world class serve.
All tennis players get injuries it is a brutal sport but so far so good for Stan. Even perfect Federer had back issues but I think Stan's results against the best returner in history speak for themselves.
The game is changing and moving forward so remember:
The players are the teachers.
If you're too rigid to learn from Wawrinka, well, all I can say is it makes sense reading your posts.
I would recommend being more fluid in your thinking because you're stuck in the mud.
Again, Stan proves a dramatic knee-bend, over-arching of the back and jumping a foot off the ground are not necessary to having a world class serve.
All tennis players get injuries it is a brutal sport but so far so good for Stan. Even perfect Federer had back issues but I think Stan's results against the best returner in history speak for themselves.
The game is changing and moving forward so remember:
The players are the teachers.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Give me a break. You certainly suggested it. This seems to be an exercise in futility for me. You can't accept that I've made some good points on this so you go for a personal attack instead. Does this say anything about the type of poster you are?
And no, Stan's serve is not proof of some new paradigm in tennis. One guy hitting big serves with a minimal knee bend and a minimal shoulder tilt and coil does not prove much. If we see a rash of other top players hitting big serves with such a serving style, w/o developing shoulder issues, then we can say that something has been proven. Until then, it's an aberration. He may be getting away with it as long as he had because his shoulder/rotators are stronger than most. But it appears that Stan might not be getting away with it after all.
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F
FuzzyYellowBalls41
Guest
I've adapted more of a Safin like serve motion. Very simple and easy to mimic after studying it for a while. I can get pretty good pace off it as well.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Listen you're the one that was disingenuous not I and you're the one that commented on MY post, a post you didn't grasp.
Stan has won two slams using that serve. That is a form of proof.
Waiting for you to disprove the efficacy of his serve. Show me how it failed him or his career?
The truth is strokes are getting simpler. All the superfluous movements are being jettisoned.
Stan has won two slams using that serve. That is a form of proof.
Waiting for you to disprove the efficacy of his serve. Show me how it failed him or his career?
The truth is strokes are getting simpler. All the superfluous movements are being jettisoned.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Says you. I'm wondering if anyone else here thinks that is the case. Anyway, I believe that I made a strong case (twice) for the points that I've made about Stan as a serving model. Unless you come with some good counter points, I'm not going to waste my time any further with this.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Do me a favor, bro, don't.
And no you have haven't disproved the effectiveness of Stan's serve for his body type.
And no you have haven't disproved the effectiveness of Stan's serve for his body type.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
Stan's serve is a good model for stocky, over the hill with little athletic, jumping ability players like me.
rainingaces
Legend
All those Croatian giants have such a nice simple techniques. Cilic was the first player to come to mind, super relaxed, smooth and easy motion.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
For those who prefer a pinpoint stance, Marat Safin is an excellent choice.
Here he is during the trophy phase of his serve. His body is coiled and his shoulders are tilted. Also note that his torso is coiled more than his hips at this point = potential energy stored in his core. Notice the orientation of the racket and racket face at this point. His wrist is neutral (not yet cocked) and his elbow is directly in line with his shoulder tilt.
Appears to be platform here; this might just as he's about to take his pinpoint step:
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
And, hopefully, you also have bulletproof rotator/shoulder muscles.
You might want a bit more shoulder tilt and torso coil; & keep the eyes on the ball longer than he does.
