Who was number 1 for 1970?

treblings

Hall of Fame
On this one point you and I differ, perhaps. I don't think there are always factual answers to some questions due to complexity and various different viewpoints that literally cause different conclusions.

Instead, we can assess certain factors:

1. Who won the most money?
2. Who won the most tournaments?
3. Which tournaments were more important and should be more heavily weighted?
4. How important are slams (really part of #3)?

For me each of these can have different answers, and so who was the best player in any year is a real problem when one player was not clearly dominant in all ways.

I'll also say that I know a lot less than people like you and Krosero, which is why I always read your posts.

Instead of giving you an opinion - I have several - I'd suggest that we when assume that all players have the same priorities, we may make a huge mistake.

For example, and only one possibility: suppose that Rosewall and Laver in 1970 had wildly different goals. Laver, for example, sitting on a grand slam and generally considered THE alpha male tennis player, may have cared less about slams and a lot more about money. We don't know this for a fact, but it is logical. Rosewall, on the other hand, having never won Wimbledon and being so far not nearly so successful winning slams in the open era may have been very hungry for slams and may have set that as his top priority. Again, we don't know this, but it is certainly possible.

My view of Rosewall and Laver is (apparently) different from just about everyone in this forum. I would personally say that Laver at his absolute peak was clearly the stronger player - more weapons, more aggression, more ways to pull out a match with sheer balls-to-the-walls match play. But I would rate Rosewall much closer. The overall H2H does not indicate to me absolute dominance but rather a clear advantage to Laver over their entire careers.

In contrast, Rosewall had an even longer career, one that started four years before Laver's and continued after Laver faded. Some may simply say, "Well, that doesn't count, but Laver wasn't around any more, and Laver didn't start to lose the edge until he had injuries." To me that seems dismissive of Rosewall and of his accomplishments, and no matter how you look at it no one else in the open era has been able to do what he did at such an advanced age.

To this very moment it shocks me to think about how he won the 1970 USO, not only winning it at almost age 36 but doing it by beating Smith, Newcombe and Roche. Then a couple months later he won the AO by beating Emerson, Okker and Ashe. We can say that the AO was "weak" because of byes and fewer matches, but we also have to look at the players he beat.

Then we look back to '68 when he was "only" closer to 34 than 33, and he had to defeat Gimeno and then Laver, back to back.

If anyone today, with all the medical advantages, special teams and perhaps and chemicals that are only legal because they have not been banned yet did what Rosewall did, we'd be in a awe.

So my overall viewpoint remains that Rosewall does NOT get as much credit as he deserves, something I think is even more true of big Pancho.

You have in Laver and Rosewall two unique talents, and I don't understand the continual compulsion to make one lesser by making the other greater.

great post of yours, one of many in this thread. i couldn´t agree more with you, particularly on the last sentence
You have in Laver and Rosewall two unique talents, and I don't understand the continual compulsion to make one lesser by making the other greater
 
7

70sHollywood

Guest
Where is the evidence that Tingay was biased towards Wimbledon? For example, in 1964 he was the only major expert to rank Margaret Court number 1 instead of Maria Bueno. He also went against the Wimbledon winner in 62, 69, 75 and 77. For the men he picked Connors in 76, even though some people picked Borg and he himself was a big fan of the Swede.


Regarding Peaks/Primes-

It is clear to me that between WWII and the early open era the prime age of a tennis player was mid 20's to early 30's. Kramer, Segura, Sedgman, Gonzalez, Trabert, Rosewall, Laver and Emerson all had their best results in this period. Hoad is the exception, though his early 1963 form (in what should have been his prime years) is an indication of what might have been.

Whether a player was an early or late bloomer would impact on their peaks and whether it was closer to 25 or 32.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I have a small new result from 1970, which makes no difference to the ranking, but it's an interesting event and a nice win by Newk over Pancho Gonzalez.

It was given to me by Scott Campbell who is a poster here; he's provided me with a number of Open-Era results for Pancho.


Evanston IL
Sept. 17-18, 1970 two-day event
Marriott Tennis Classic
Northwestern University - McGaw Hall

Day 1:
Margaret Court defeated Richey, Nancy 16 75 60
Cliff Richey defeated Ashe 63 46 62
Ashe/Court defeated Richey/Richey 62 61

Day 2:
Newcombe d. Gonzalez 6-1, 4-6, 6-4, 4-6, 6-2

Scott’s note: “Attendance 7800 per one report. An earlier report indicated that the same day [9-18] would have matches between Roche and Riessen, and between Roche/El Shafei and Riessen/Okker but I can't locate results of those matches.”

krosero, Damned strong old Pancho...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I'm so incredibly tuned into age that the first thing that knocks me in the eyes is the year and the score. Pancho was probably 42, and if not months away from turning 42. But after getting creamed in the 1st set, he fought back in the 2nd and 4th. Again, think if that happened now, a former #1 in the world still going toe to toe in a 5 set match against someone of the caliber of John Newcombe.

This is not the first time I terribly much regret never seeing Pancho play at his peak. ;)

I guess I'm finally going to have to cave in and start using the "z", but it just feels weird because I saw "Gonzales" for so many years as I was growing up...

Gary, Both spellings are correct.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I continue to believe that at the beginning of the open era it was hugely important, and thus an important factor. That does not mean that I think it is the most important factor, Bobby.

Well, I'm not sure either, Bobby, because I don't have data, and I'm never going to get it. I do know from studying statistics very carefully over the last 25 years or so that the advantage is always with the guy with the stronger service game when stats are otherwise equal.

By this I mean that if two players are winning the same % of games, overall, but one player is holding serve more easily, the better server generally has a statistically better record winning matches.

This leads to what I call "the Sampras effect", which I have been puzzling over for at least a couple years now.

What this means is that players like Sampras and to a slightly lesser degree Federer appear to have an extra gear. My hunch is that very powerful servers coast when they are ahead a break, saving energy and only going all out on return when things get even, or when they fall behind. In contrast, players like Agassi, Nadal and Murray had/have to keep the gas on more uniformly because they are more likely to be broken. This does not, by the way, particularly apply to Nadal at his peak on clay. In spite of not having a dominant serve, he had a very dominant service game on clay.

I don't have stats on Rosewall, so I'm guessing, and I may be 100% wrong. But just looking at his serve I would think that he must have been more vulnerable to being broken, and that even Laver was probably a good deal more vulnerable to losing serve than Gonzalez.

Over the last 25 years or so there has been no one I can think of with a phenomenally high % of holding serve who has been much under 6 foot, and even then the really tall guys have at least a slight advantage over Sampras, Roddick and Federer. But the giants all have relative weaknesses in returning (Karlovic, Isner, Raonic) and so none of them are at the top of winning games both on serve and return.

I just have a lot of trouble imagining a man Rosewall's height and with the serve we see in videos winning service games as easily as the other guys with bigger serves. I would say the same thing to some extent about Laver, but as I remember Laver had a very powerful serve for a shorter player.

Again, we don't have data. If my hunch is right, Rosewall would have had an amazingly high rate of breaking serve. At his peak he would have been close to Nadal on clay, but of course on fast surfaces, which would have meant he would always be a threat to break back after being broken.

I'm repeating that I have zero data to back this up.

This is what I do have, although I may still have minor errors, which I'm always looking to correct:

Going back all the way to '68 I see that the players who were most dominant in winning games in slams are Borg, Nadal and Vilas, but this is on clay. Game dominance is highest on slow courts, lowest on fast courts, so in general this dominance shows up highest on clay, lowest on grass, and somewhere in the middle on HCs.

When I eliminate all slams not on grass, the guys at the top of the list are interesting because this catches most of the great ones. Rosewall does very well on this list, for all games.

To some extent I think that looking at only the last three matches - usually quarter final, final and championship match - might be even more important. McEnroe is at that top, two years in a row. To me that is significant. The next names are Federer, Sampras, Borg, Connors. Rosewall is next. However, the players who do best on this list also usually won grass slams several times, so more chances to have a dominant slam. Laver does not fare so well because his 1969 grand slam was extremely tight, a real miracle in terms of a story, and he did not contest as many times after that on grass slams.

As you can see, I have part of the story, but in order to find out what I'm missing I would have to go through match after match and calculate not only how many games were won and lost but also how many breaks there were. That's beyond my patience.

You unfortunately don't always recognize those of us who are ALMOST as enthusiastic as you are about Rosewall. I've always been a huge admirer of Rosewall and remain so. Remember, I am utterly uninterested in GOAT debates.

Gary, Thanks a lot for your thoughts and analyses.

You don't have data about the several strokes, especially of Rosewall's. But you did not contradict at any of those I listed. I made my claims according to several players and experts who saw Rosewall, some of them even in his peak years.

For example World Tennis in 1966 wrote that Rosewall (now) has the best backhand in the world both from the baseline and at the volley. Again I would say that Rosewall had at least as many weapons as Laver but not Rod's power (even though Ken's power with his backhand and at the volleys is underestimated). By the way, I forgot to mention Rosewall's half-volley, rated by Kramer as the all-time best together with that of Gonzalez. Kramer (never a typical Rosewall admirer) also praised Rosewall's overhead.

It's true that Rosewall often did not win his games and matches as easily as Laver or Borg did but he won his fair share of matches, altogether more than Laver and Borg (and Federer for that matter). It's not important how you win but THAT you win. Rosewall made up for his relative "soft" service (it was not soft in his peak years though) by using his many assets I have listed up from return (the all-time greatest?) to footwork and reflexes.

Rosewall in open era was an old player. Thus his numbers then are not too telling.

I do know that some posters here, i.e. you, krosero, treblings, thrust, dwightcharles, Nathaniel Near, DMP, 90's Clay, 70sHollywood and maybe a few more admire Rosewall and realize his greatness. But I concentrate to those rather many posters who always try to belittle the Little Master (and to pump up Laver), i. e. Limpinhitter, Phoenix1983, urban, NatF, abmk, ARFED, Dan Lobb, NonP and some others.

I hate it to be attacked and insulted very often since July 2012 and to be forced to read Limpinhitter's mean lies and the absurd "English lessons" from native English speakers about Bud Collins' crystal clear words that Rosewall was perhaps the GOAT. That discussion (the abstruse distorting of Bud's words) was probably the lowest point of nastiness and infamy I ever experienced in this forum (infamy against Bud Collins and BobbyOne). Of course Phoenix's wish of a soon dying Rosewall can cope with it...

Many or most posters here do like GOAT discussions.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
You may remember this older post in the career percentages thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...17-alltime-greats.562591/page-2#post-10281651

I built on PC1's concept of a 5-year peak and found that a player's rate of titles won (out of events entered) shows their decline exceptionally well. Maybe I should put those numbers in graph form, but the list is straightforward and you can see how steeply the numbers climb to a peak and then how steeply they fall. Rosewall in the late 60s and early 70s was winning titles at a far slower rate than he had done in 1960-64. A very similar curve is evident for Laver. It's true for all the players for whom I got career-length data.

That's just talking about it statistically. There is plenty of other written evidence that Rosewall was declining from about '64 onwards, for example World Tennis' report of the 1965 Wembley Pro:

THE LONDON PRO CHAMPIONSHIPS

by LINDA TIMMS

Rod Laver is the best player in the world. He proved it by the way he won the London Professional Championships at Wembley in September. Of all the champions since the war, only Lew Hoad has commanded the same frightening brilliance and power of stroke, the same ability to bring off in every other game coups which any other player would have more sense than to attempt. But Laver has achieved even more than Hoad; he has learned to discipline his genius sufficiently to bring him to the top of the cruelly demanding professional game. More than that, he has eliminated his unevenness without sacrificing any of his individuality. His game now is one long purple patch.

The finest match at Wembley this year came in an early round three-setter when Laver met Frank Sedgman. At 38, the Wimbledon champion of 1952 is still incredibly fit, fast and severe of stroke. Against Laver he did more than anyone else even approached; he reached match point before losing bravely in a wonderfully exciting contest.

If Laver has reached his peak, it became clear on the evidence of this week that Ken Rosewall has just passed his. He lost surprisingly in the semi-finals to Andres Gimeno after leading by two sets to love and looking completely authoritative. He dropped the third 6-0, relaxing after an early loss of his service, led in the fourth and then missed his chance. At 3-5 in the fifth one waited confidently for the deadly Rosewall riposte. It never came. His own bitter disappointment was evident and justified; it was a fine match but it was a defeat that should never have happened to him.

It would probably be unfair to judge Rosewall on this match, partly because his left leg was troubling him in the last two sets. But throughout the week his famous impeccability showed a slight fraying at the edges. He produced the perfect shot at the necessary moment nine out of ten instead of ten times. He would droop his head and drop his racket as the old impassive master with everything at his fingertips would never do. But his relative shortcomings should not be exaggerated; he is a superb player still and will be for a long time.

Laver won both his semi-final against Earl Buchholz and his final against Gimeno in three straight sets. People often complain that matches at Wembley lack atmosphere, but strangely enough this was not true even of such a one-sided final. Gimeno, who had shown marvellous touch and flair against Rosewall even in the two sets he lost, never had a chance against Laver’s furious pace, control and variety. What gave the match its excitement was simply Laver’s genius. This was lawn tennis played as well as it can be played, not only with perfect skill but also with startling virtuosity. It was an extraordinary display.

The Empire Pool, Wembley, is no one’s favorite tennis centre. It can be both cold and stuffy at the same time, and the atmosphere, full of glaring lights and cigarette smoke, swirls more thickly as the night goes on. No one goes to Wembley for strawberries and cream. If lawn tennis of this quality could be seen on grass, in sunshine (and with strawberries), gate money would cease to be a problem.​

In '64 I recall as well, a couple of reports noting that the players themselves agreed that Rosewall was overplaying himself and in a bit of a slump at times. They said this about how he was doing from day to day, not in the big events; Ken was still getting up for those but he wasn't as consistent in the smaller events as he used to be.

krosero, Thanks for the quoting. I did not know that Rosewall was a bit handicapped in his match against Gimeno.

Thank you for analysing the slight decline of Muscles since 1964 or 1965. Hope that Limpinhitter will observe...

Great for old Sedgman to have a match point against peak Laver!

Similary to you I think that Rosewall was not as consistent a player as many claim (and also I earlier have claimed). In contrary, Rosewall seems to me being a typical player for the big events (thus his huge haul of big wins and top placings).

1965, 1971 and 1972 are typical examples for this claim: In 1965 Laver beat Rosewall very often but in major encounters Ken usually won: French Pro, US Pro, Reston (biggest claycourt event of the year), St. Louis (US Pro Hardcourt).

In 1971 and 1972 Laver defeated Rosewall several times in the WCT series but Rosewall won the two Dallas finals which were much more important.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Your info reflects my belief that older players, no matter how well they play in big tournaments, have to be more careful to plan their schedules, and they have to pace themselves. I also suspect that Laver in 1969 was no longer at his peak, but he was so incredibly good that he still pulled off the miraculous grand slam.

No one beats Father Time. ;)
Laver hurt his wrist badly in 1968 which was an injury that affected him the rest of his career. I know he also developed a bad back that affected his overhead and serve at times but I am not sure if he was affected by this in 1969. Laver was clearly past his best in 1969.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Well I wouldn't call it just prize money for Laver, he also won 5 of the 15 biggest tournaments in 1970 compared to just one each for Rosewall and Newcombe. I don't see Wimbledon and the rest of Newcombes results giving him equal claims with Rosewall and Newcombe. Tingay tended to give precedence to Wimbledon, it's not a case of being out of touch but when the criteria is that stringent I think it's fine to disregard it to a degree.

Win/loss and h2h are secondary to me, Laver won vastly more tournaments including many more large ones. That's what sells him as #1 for me.

Your last paragraph is mostly how I understand it. Rosewall has a good case, however I don't think just 2 events can decide the year so decisively. Especially when Rosewall only won one of them. As far as contemporaries of the time go I would point out that one of those you named 'Robert Geist' was not a contemporary expert, his rankings came after 1970 - though he of course rated them all equal. Worth pointing out that the seeding committee which consistently gave Laver the #1 seed in early 1971 would also be contemporary experts as well.

NatF, Sorry, I already explained you the difference between seedings and rankings. Tingay and Collins were rather experts than the seeding committees.

I also explained the No.1 seedings for Laver in early 1971 and mid-1971.

You are right regarding Geist but I like it that in his Rosewall biography he did not rank his darling alone as No.1. The same for 1961 and 1964.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
great post of yours, one of many in this thread. i couldn´t agree more with you, particularly on the last sentence
You have in Laver and Rosewall two unique talents, and I don't understand the continual compulsion to make one lesser by making the other greater

treblings, I don't agree because Gary indirectly blamed me for not being objective regarding Laver and Rosewall. I'm convinced that I always am fair to them when pleading for Rosewall's greatness and "fighting" against the overestimating of Laver's greatness.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
NatF, Sorry, I already explained you the difference between seedings and rankings. Tingay and Collins were rather experts than the seeding committees.

I also explained the No.1 seedings for Laver in early 1971 and mid-1971.

You are right regarding Geist but I like it that in his Rosewall biography he did not rank his darling alone as No.1. The same for 1961 and 1964.

I have no comment to make on Geist or his views beyond that including him as a contemporary expert is incorrect. Otherwise I could name Raymond Lee as an expert who considers Laver at #1. Whether he is fair or not does not make him a contemporary.

So Laver was winning so much continually that he was seeded #1 consistently at the biggest events but he was not ranked #1? That seems strange to me. Is there any information out there for how the seeding was determined, I'd like to read it for myself - the details would surely be interesting.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Where is the evidence that Tingay was biased towards Wimbledon? For example, in 1964 he was the only major expert to rank Margaret Court number 1 instead of Maria Bueno. He also went against the Wimbledon winner in 62, 69, 75 and 77. For the men he picked Connors in 76, even though some people picked Borg and he himself was a big fan of the Swede.


Regarding Peaks/Primes-

It is clear to me that between WWII and the early open era the prime age of a tennis player was mid 20's to early 30's. Kramer, Segura, Sedgman, Gonzalez, Trabert, Rosewall, Laver and Emerson all had their best results in this period. Hoad is the exception, though his early 1963 form (in what should have been his prime years) is an indication of what might have been.

Whether a player was an early or late bloomer would impact on their peaks and whether it was closer to 25 or 32.

70sHollywood, I contradict. At the male players he almost always went with the Wimbledon winner, even in 1971!!

Exception, as far as I know, are only 1963 (Osuna) and of course 1973 (Newcombe).

Rather biased, Lance!
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I have no comment to make on Geist or his views beyond that including him as a contemporary expert is incorrect. Otherwise I could name Raymond Lee as an expert who considers Laver at #1. Whether he is fair or not does not make him a contemporary.

So Laver was winning so much continually that he was seeded #1 consistently at the biggest events but he was not ranked #1? That seems strange to me. Is there any information out there for how the seeding was determined, I'd like to read it for myself - the details would surely be interesting.

NatF, I agree about Geist and Raymond Lee.

I have mentioned a few criteria the seeding committees have used among them Laver's high reputation which might have distorted the true situation.

Laver won the rather big ones and some smaller ones while Rosewall and Newcombe won the real big ones and had a top placing in the other of the two big ones.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
treblings, It was a criticism of many Laver and Rosewall admirers including of course Rosewall's main "advocate".
i was commenting on his words as i understood them.
you may well have better insight into what he meant by his words.
to my knowledge you´re not only a Rosewall admirer. if i remember your posts correctly you have Laver as your joint no.1
 
7

70sHollywood

Guest
70sHollywood, I contradict. At the male players he almost always went with the Wimbledon winner, even in 1971!!

Exception, as far as I know, are only 1963 (Osuna) and of course 1973 (Newcombe).

Rather biased. Lance!

Truth is most of those years Tingay ranked players the Wimbledon champion had the best record. The question is what did he do in years there was no clear number 1? It's possible he used the results of the top tournament to decide the outcome, which of course just so happened to be Wimbledon most of the time (but not all time, hence Newk for 73).

This isn't bias, at least not in the sense most people use the term. If he was biased he would have ranked Wimbledon champions as number 1 in years when there was another clear cut number 1, which I don't think he did.

Newcombe has a better claim for 1971 than he does for 1970. He won several decent tournaments outside Wimbledon.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Several have mentioned the tennisbase, which I jhave used for a while as an invaluable resource. Does anyone know if there is a comparable site for women stats?

Charles, Many thanks for your private message (I forgot how to answer in that forum though), your praise and your criticism.

The latter reminds me of an older criticism I got from krosero. Are you the alter ego of krosero? By the way, I consider him as a true friend even though I sometimes missed his support.

I like your appreciation of my postings and I like your ones too. You are a big enrichment for this forum!

Thanks that you find my approach to multiple No.1's fair-minded. Not many posters would agree with you though here.

Thanks for your maqny "likes". I see that you like to give likes to almost everyone even in case that two posters contradict each other ;-)

I don't know if you have read in this forum since years. In case you have not, I can tell you that I'm rather offended and unhappy that I was attacked and insulted since I write here, mostly without any reason, just because I use to claim that Rosewall is a true GOAT candidate (in my opinion the GOAT-together with Laver, slightly ahead of Gonzalez and Tilden; Federer No.5). There is sometimes some hate against me.

I once was threatened by a poster but he does not post here anymore. Limpinhitter in 2012 compared me with Günter Parche, the man who stabbed Seles. For that insult he was banned for a few weeks but he did not post for a couple of years. Since his return his only agenda seems to be belittling Rosewall, pumping up Laver and mocking BobbyOne. Of course I sometimes ask Limpin to apologize. I still believe that everybody can change his/her behaviour. Please note: I did not say that Limpinhitter is obnoxious. I rather blamed his behaviour, his lies.

Of course I must call his obnoxious and mean lie ( Rosewall would have won 40 open majors in my opinion) an "obnoxious lie" and his absurd numbers (Laver won 36 majors) "absurd". He (or she, who knows?) made a few more lies (about 6 or 7). Nobody besides of me critisized his behaviour last year...

Phoenix1983 once revealed my proper name (it's forbidden) and uses to speculate about Rosewall's near death. He also does not understand why Rosewall never won Wimbledon and, more than that, he "knows" that Rosewall would not have won any Wimbledon if he was allowed to participate in his peak years.

Then there are a few other posters who are stubborn to a great extent without direct insults against me, i. e. urban, Dan Lobb, NonP, KG 1965. They never would accept a good argument of mine and change their mind in even a minor point...

You should know that I'm an acknowledged tennis expert, quoted in the New York Times (internet version) and called by Bud Collins the "Vienna Visionary" and the "Authoritative Austrian", and a good friend of Ken Rosewall. I guess some posters are a bit jealous because of all that (Of course some posters claimed that the above mentioned things are lies...).

I'm rather old (68) and not in good health anymore and I really don't need to be insulted or attacked day-in and day-out. My pause of two months was refreshing for me and I think I will again make a pause or quit posting at all if the circumstances are too bad for me (too much hate; too little support from my friends).

Not posting in a tennis forum (even though it was my greatest hobby) is not the end of the world. I rather fear the world's end by climate change, over-population and the triumph of a certain religion which is very violent and intolerant...

Hope you can understand me a bit better now.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
i was commenting on his words as i understood them.
you may well have better insight into what he meant by his words.
to my knowledge you´re not only a Rosewall admirer. if i remember your posts correctly you have Laver as your joint no.1

treblings, Yes, I have Rod & Ken tied at first place. But I admire Rosewall more because I believe that it's more admirable to win very much without having sheer power and a murderous service (in both fields Laver has the edge; it's even more significant re Gonzalez) and to compensate his deficits by variety and touch.

I confess that I'm a bit nearer to Ken than to Rod. I have got 45 letters from the former and zero letters from the latter...;-)
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Truth is most of those years Tingay ranked players the Wimbledon champion had the best record. The question is what did he do in years there was no clear number 1? It's possible he used the results of the top tournament to decide the outcome, which of course just so happened to be Wimbledon most of the time (but not all time, hence Newk for 73).

This isn't bias, at least not in the sense most people use the term. If he was biased he would have ranked Wimbledon champions as number 1 in years when there was another clear cut number 1, which I don't think he did.

Newcombe has a better claim for 1971 than he does for 1970. He won several decent tournaments outside Wimbledon.

70sHollywood, Okay, but I think that Smith had a better year than Newk in 1971.
 

treblings

Hall of Fame
treblings, Yes, I have Rod & Ken tied at first place. But I admire Rosewall more because I believe that it's more admirable to win very much without having sheer power and a murderous service (in both fields Laver has the edge; it's even more significant re Gonzalez) and to compensate his deficits by variety and touch.

I confess that I'm a bit nearer to Ken than to Rod. I have got 45 letters from the former and zero letters from the latter...;-)

I know you consider Rosewall your friend and that alone is more than enough reason to prefer him. There is much to admire about the man. His ability to overcome opponents who had more power and better serves is one of those things.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
In the three-site tourney here marking the third leg of the World Championship series, the No. 1 seeded player is another Australian biggie, 1970 Wimbledon champion John Newcombe.

Also seeded ahead of Laver in the hand-picked 32 man field are Arthur Ashe, No. 2; and Australia's Ken Rosewall, No. 2.​
Two no. 2 seeds? Is this a typo? Was Rosewall seeded no. 3, and Ashe no. 2?​
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
Is this a typo? Was Rosewall seeded no. 3, and Ashe no. 2?​
The seeding committees do have sometimes silly reasons on some seedings. I remember in the late 1960s, I think 1969, Laver was seeded second to Tony Roche in some tournament. The logic was that while Laver was clearly the best player, Tony Roche was number two and since Roche was beating Laver at the time more than Laver beat him, the logic was to seed Roche number one.

There could be seedings perhaps because they wanted certain match-ups.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
NatF, I agree about Geist and Raymond Lee.

I have mentioned a few criteria the seeding committees have used among them Laver's high reputation which might have distorted the true situation.

Laver won the rather big ones and some smaller ones while Rosewall and Newcombe won the real big ones and had a top placing in the other of the two big ones.

Ok fair enough about the seeding, I don't think it should be completely discounted but I can accept it's nothing absolute.

There were only 2 real big ones in 1970, as I said before boiling the year down to just 2 events doesn't sit right with me. Let's just agree to disagree, I think Laver should be considered #1 in 1970 but also think Rosewall has a good case for #1 as well.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Gary, Both spellings are correct.
Bobby, thank you are trying to explain my bad spelling, but I really was wrong. ;)

Winning, which comes from win, has two "nn's". Wine is a noun, and you can be "wining" someone when you "wine and dine them", meaning provide food and drink:
wine
wīn/
verb
gerund or present participle: wining
  1. entertain someone by offering them drinks and a meal.
    "members of Congress have been lavishly wined and dined by lobbyists for years"
    • enjoy oneself by eating and drinking lavishly.
      "we wined and dined with Eddie's and Bernie's friends"
I was puzzled myself, wondering why the system accepted "wining". But spell-checkers don't catch things like that!
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
The seeding committees do have sometimes silly reasons on some seedings. I remember in the late 1960s, I think 1969, Laver was seeded second to Tony Roche in some tournament. The logic was that while Laver was clearly the best player, Tony Roche was number two and since Roche was beating Laver at the time more than Laver beat him, the logic was to seed Roche number one.

There could be seedings perhaps because they wanted certain match-ups.
I'll have to go back and check, but I believe that Nadal was seeded #2 behind Federer for years at RG even after having won several years in a row. I believe he was finally seeded #1 the first year he did not win there.

Being seeded #2 is not disadvantage as far as facing top players, but this is an obvious example of a total lack of logic.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Bobby, thank you are trying to explain my bad spelling, but I really was wrong. ;)

Winning, which comes from win, has two "nn's". Wine is a noun, and you can be "wining" someone when you "wine and dine them", meaning provide food and drink:

I was puzzled myself, wondering why the system accepted "wining". But spell-checkers don't catch things like that!
Gary,

Stop whining about wining. There is no winning when you continue to discuss wining and dining.

Sorry Gary. I couldn't resist. My apologies for the bad puns. :)
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
Yes, a typo in the original. I would guess that Rosewall was seeded third since he was listed last.
I think I've seen seedings in which Laver was around 7th to 9th seed when he didn't deserve to be. I think a lot of it is opinion on whether the surface may suit a player also and perhaps injuries and form. It makes sense but is very subjective.
 
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NatF

Bionic Poster
I'll have to go back and check, but I believe that Nadal was seeded #2 behind Federer for years at RG even after having won several years in a row. I believe he was finally seeded #1 the first year he did not win there.

Being seeded #2 is not disadvantage as far as facing top players, but this is an obvious example of a total lack of logic.

Seeding is the same as ranking these days and has been for a while - obviously withdrawls not withstanding, Wimbledon is the exception.
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
Seeding is the same as ranking these days and has been for a while - obviously withdrawls not withstanding, Wimbledon is the exception.
It does make you wonder if a little bit of subjectivity could be more appropriate sometimes. For example Nadal perhaps could have been seeded number one at the French more often even if by the rankings he didn't deserve to be as Gary pointed out.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
It does make you wonder if a little bit of subjectivity could be more appropriate sometimes. For example Nadal perhaps could have been seeded number one at the French more often even if by the rankings he didn't deserve to be as Gary pointed out.

#1 or #2 doesn't make a lot of different, equal odds of drawing the different seeds. Might have been a suitable nod to his dominance on that surface though.
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Laver hurt his wrist badly in 1968 which was an injury that affected him the rest of his career. I know he also developed a bad back that affected his overhead and serve at times but I am not sure if he was affected by this in 1969. Laver was clearly past his best in 1969.
I remember he also had some problems later in his career with his serve.

Those old Aussies were iron men, true also of Gonzalez. They played through injuries and pain. That would not happen today.

One of the reason people play longer now is that there are better treatments for injuries.

Murray is where he is because of modern surgery. If he had been born a few decades ago, his career would have been over. Done.

Federer has a chance to win again this year because of how successful surgery was, and how quickly he healed. That also would not have happened decades ago.

This is also why "mileage" is such a huge factor. The longer and harder these guys play, the more chance there is that they will wear out their bodies. Think of how many hip surgeries these guys have.

Both Gonzalez and Rosewall had miracle genetics. Also true of Connors for a very long time, but the guys who retired early (Borg for example) probably have fewer aches and pains as they age.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Seeding is the same as ranking these days and has been for a while - obviously withdrawls not withstanding, Wimbledon is the exception.
That doesn't make it logical or fair. When a guy is clearly the best on clay, year after year, before RG, seeding him #2 is not fair, and if it pushes someone down further down than #2, it can make a huge difference.
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
I remember he also had some problems later in his career with his serve.

Those old Aussies were iron men, true also of Gonzalez. They played through injuries and pain. That would not happen today.

One of the reason people play longer now is that there are better treatments for injuries.

Murray is where he is because of modern surgery. If he had been born a few decades ago, his career would have been over. Done.

Federer has a chance to win again this year because of how successful surgery was, and how quickly he healed. That also would not have happened decades ago.

This is also why "mileage" is such a huge factor. The longer and harder these guys play, the more chance there is that they will wear out their bodies. Think of how many hip surgeries these guys have.

Both Gonzalez and Rosewall had miracle genetics. Also true of Connors for a very long time, but the guys who retired early (Borg for example) probably have fewer aches and pains as they age.
Laver developed a nagging bad problem at least as early as 1970 and who knows, perhaps before. It affected his serve and overhead.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
That doesn't make it logical or fair. When a guy is clearly the best on clay, year after year, before RG, seeding him #2 is not fair, and if it pushes someone down further down than #2, it can make a huge difference.

If Nadal was coming in seeded #3 or lower I would agree but #1 or #2 makes no practical difference. In 2013 they should have seeded Nadal #1 or #2 and had him in the opposite half to Djokovic.
 
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Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
If Nadal was coming in seeded #3 or lower I would agree but #1 or #2 makes no practical difference. In 2013 they should have seeded Nadal #1 or #2 and had him in the opposite half to Djokovic.
Exactly. The issue is not about being (unfairly) seeded #2. It's that the moment seedings becomes questionable, it doesn't stop there.

By the time RG took place the smart money should have been on either Nadal or Djokovic.

Fed did not win a tournament on clay in 2011 and won Madrid in 2012.

Nadal won 4 titles in 2012, including two M1000s and RG. Yes, he was injured in 2012, but before RG in 2013 he had won Madrid and Rome. How you put a guy with Nadal's record (at that time) as #3 is beyond me.

The result is that Djokovic, a player I don't even like to watch, got screwed out of being AT LEAST a finalist, and the result was that the true final happened in the semi-final.

So if RG sticks to seeding by world ranking rather than by ranking on clay alone, it's pretty illogical.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Exactly. The issue is not about being (unfairly) seeded #2. It's that the moment seedings becomes questionable, it doesn't stop there.

By the time RG took place the smart money should have been on either Nadal or Djokovic.

Fed did not win a tournament on clay in 2011 and won Madrid in 2012.

Nadal won 4 titles in 2012, including two M1000s and RG. Yes, he was injured in 2012, but before RG in 2013 he had won Madrid and Rome. How you put a guy with Nadal's record (at that time) as #3 is beyond me.

The result is that Djokovic, a player I don't even like to watch, got screwed out of being AT LEAST a finalist, and the result was that the true final happened in the semi-final.

So if RG sticks to seeding by world ranking rather than by ranking on clay alone, it's pretty illogical.

The general thinking is that there's enough clay representation in the tour in general for the world rankings to provide an accurate seeding for the FO. Obviously that's not always the case, another example being Sampras being seeded #1 constantly at the FO.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I know you consider Rosewall your friend and that alone is more than enough reason to prefer him. There is much to admire about the man. His ability to overcome opponents who had more power and better serves is one of those things.

treblings, Thanks for your understanding.

I forgot to mention that I once contacted the Rocket but, alas, I never got an answer. The same with Buchholz, Segura, Olmedo.

But I did get answers from Sedgman (a very long one), from Trabert who sent me his complete pro record (as far it was known then), Anderson, MacKay, Cooper, McMillan, Gimeno...

I also forgot to mention that I contacted te Little Master in person four times, i.e. at Wimbledon, at Pörtschach (Austria) twice and near Hamburg.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Ok fair enough about the seeding, I don't think it should be completely discounted but I can accept it's nothing absolute.

There were only 2 real big ones in 1970, as I said before boiling the year down to just 2 events doesn't sit right with me. Let's just agree to disagree, I think Laver should be considered #1 in 1970 but also think Rosewall has a good case for #1 as well.

NatF, There only were two really big events in 1970 but of course there were some others that were rather big. Both claims are right. Laver won several rather big events, the best being either Dunlop or Wembley.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Bobby, thank you are trying to explain my bad spelling, but I really was wrong. ;)

Winning, which comes from win, has two "nn's". Wine is a noun, and you can be "wining" someone when you "wine and dine them", meaning provide food and drink:

I was puzzled myself, wondering why the system accepted "wining". But spell-checkers don't catch things like that!

Gary, I meant Pancho's name.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I'll have to go back and check, but I believe that Nadal was seeded #2 behind Federer for years at RG even after having won several years in a row. I believe he was finally seeded #1 the first year he did not win there.

Being seeded #2 is not disadvantage as far as facing top players, but this is an obvious example of a total lack of logic.

Gary, I agree.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I remember he also had some problems later in his career with his serve.

Those old Aussies were iron men, true also of Gonzalez. They played through injuries and pain. That would not happen today.

One of the reason people play longer now is that there are better treatments for injuries.

Murray is where he is because of modern surgery. If he had been born a few decades ago, his career would have been over. Done.

Federer has a chance to win again this year because of how successful surgery was, and how quickly he healed. That also would not have happened decades ago.

This is also why "mileage" is such a huge factor. The longer and harder these guys play, the more chance there is that they will wear out their bodies. Think of how many hip surgeries these guys have.

Both Gonzalez and Rosewall had miracle genetics. Also true of Connors for a very long time, but the guys who retired early (Borg for example) probably have fewer aches and pains as they age.

Gary, I would not say that the current players play longer than those of 50 years ago, see Segura, Sedgman, Drobny, Mulloy and so on.
 
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