Wilson Ultra Tour (Monfils)

Tommy Haas

Tommy Haas

Hall of Fame
If titanium wasn't so expensive, it would be the perfect material for manufacturers to use. It's very lightweight and strong. It would be the ultimate uber racket for the masses.

Racket manufacturers don't care about their customers health and wellbeing because they're not required by law to design rackets with health and safety legal requirements.

Head's Ti rackets weren't really made of it and the same with their new graphene line. Graphene is more expensive than gold. Head is the worst when it comes to deceptive advertising.

That's why they refuse to make their pro stock frames available to the public because they fear they'll be found out.
 
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FearlessAnimal

FearlessAnimal

Rookie
Zoolander said:
Arent ALL of the fancy new materials used by manufacturers today just new types/braids of carbon fibre?
Click to expand...

If "today" means "nowadays" and we can count in Head IG YT racquets which are still on shelves in decent prices then answer is NO.

[d3o] is non-newtonian fluid and you can find many videos at YT where man can see how unbelivable material it is.
[innegra s] is special fiber similar to kevlar (less stiff but UV resistant -- I saw long discussion comparing these two on some surfers forum).
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
Tommy Haas said:
If titanium wasn't so expensive, it would be the perfect material for manufacturers to use. It's very lightweight and strong. It would be the ultimate uber racket for the masses.
Click to expand...

Graphite and kevlar is all racquets ever needed. But graphite has to be of right modulus (stiffness grade) for tennis. Racquet manufacturers use graphite prepregs made for aeroindustry which are stiffer than optimum (and probably are cheaper because of economy of scale), but can make a thin durable layup of around 70 RA with least graphite used, so manufacturing is cheaper. This is the problem, manufacturers make racquets cheapest possible. Graphite was never the problem itself as a material, and if you want to make it yet better, there is kevlar, really a HQ material.

As for titanium, I wouldn't know. Racquets don't really need lighter than graphite. You need a certain mass for the optimal tennis.
 
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Automatix

Automatix

Legend
zalive said:
Graphite and kevlar is all racquets ever needed. But graphite has to be at the right modulus (stiffness grade) for tennis. Racquet manufacturers use graphite prepregs made for aeroindustry which are stiffer than optimum (and probably are cheaper because of economy of scale), but can make a thin durable layup of around 70 RA with least graphite used, so manufacturing is cheaper. This is the problem, manufacturers make racquets cheapest possible. Graphite was never the problem itself as a material, and if you want to make it yet better, there is kevlar, really a HQ material.
Click to expand...
This plus the following...
What would be good for a racquet from our perspective is more graphite, less resin, but resin & epoxy are crucial for binding. In theory a textreme braid allows to use less epoxy but there's not enough information regarding it to speculate whether a racquet using a textreme braid throughout the frame would be beneficial.
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
Automatix said:
This plus the following...
What would be good for a racquet from our perspective is more graphite, less resin, but resin & epoxy are crucial for binding. In theory a textreme braid allows to use less epoxy but there's not enough information regarding it to speculate whether a racquet using a textreme braid throughout the frame would be beneficial.
Click to expand...

I think resin adds to the flex. I think also resin adds to muting vibrations.
 
FearlessAnimal

FearlessAnimal

Rookie
zalive said:
I think resin adds to the flex. I think also resin adds to muting vibrations.
Click to expand...
I think Head used d3o as part of resin formula because I saw no d3o inserts under grip pallets and I don't belive they can use such inserts reasonably in hoop.

Unless d3o is another "tungsten" as in GT Babolats ;) which I don't belive is the case :)
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
FearlessAnimal said:
I think Head used d3o as part of resin formula because I saw no d3o inserts under grip pallets and I don't belive they can use such inserts reasonably in hoop.

Unless d3o is another "tungsten" as in GT Babolats ;) which I don't belive is the case :)
Click to expand...

What would be the reason why you would not believe it's the case? Loyalty to the brand, so you want to believe?

Whether it's a complete lie or not, the main reason for introducing new materials is in most cases marketing, and marketing reason is present always. As long as there are buyers who believe and want to believe new materials bring something special to racquets, they'll do it. They wouldn't do it if it didn't promote the sales.

The other possible reason for introducing new materials is cutting cost. Sometimes it's adding comfort like in the case of BLX, but only if it goes along with cutting cost. And marketing.
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
FearlessAnimal said:
This too :) plus exceptional muted filling which I'm trying to rationalize by beliving it's because of these "cosmic" materials :)
Click to expand...

Innegra fibres might be real. I do believe some manufacturers are trying to find a cheap alternative to kevlar/twaron.
 
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PeterFig

PeterFig

Professional
zalive said:
Nowhere on this page mentioned it's a material...they call it a technology. There's a mention though it's a composite (material system).
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Technically you are right. It's not a single material like Graphene. It's a name for the combination of unique materials and the way they are engineered together. However it's not just a different layup method as mentioned before.
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
PeterFig said:
Technically you are right. It's not a single material like Graphene. It's a name for the combination of unique materials and the way they are engineered together. However it's not just a different layup method as mentioned before.
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From the URL you provided:

Countervail® is a materials solution with no active damping components (piezoelectrics, springs, etc.), resulting in minimal, if any, dependent weight.

THE CONCEPT:
Countervail® is a composite-material system that combines traditional damping layer concepts and a patented fiber preform. The experimentally-proven unparalleled damping is derived from the fiber preform; the fiber pattern maximizes the vibrational energy dissipation in the surrounding polymeric materials.

So, it's not about unique materials, it's about how fibers are formed (fiber pattern).

edit: from Bianchi web pages (they use CV tech as well):

Countervail® is a carbon composite-material system that, with special fiber architecture, combines patented structural carbon with viscoelastic resin. Countervail® cancels 80% of vibrations while increasing the stiffness and strength of our carbon frames and forks.

https://www.bianchi.com/global/focuson/countervail-251853

So it's carbon and resin, again, only it's carbon in a different structure/pattern.
 
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PeterFig

PeterFig

Professional
zalive said:
From the URL you provided:

Countervail® is a materials solution with no active damping components (piezoelectrics, springs, etc.), resulting in minimal, if any, dependent weight.

THE CONCEPT:
Countervail® is a composite-material system that combines traditional damping layer concepts and a patented fiber preform. The experimentally-proven unparalleled damping is derived from the fiber preform; the fiber pattern maximizes the vibrational energy dissipation in the surrounding polymeric materials.

So, it's not about unique materials, it's about how fibers are formed (fiber pattern).
Click to expand...

Fibers of what though? :)

Clearly it's a combination of unique materials they chose in combination of unique process they developed. It's not just any random fibres they found on the floor or in their pockets :)

No different than let's say something like carbon fibre which is both a collection of specific (unique) materials and a production process.

Moving on .....
 
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PeterFig

PeterFig

Professional
zalive said:
Fibers of carbon, Bianchi revealed (unlike CV pages).
Click to expand...

:) I think we are talking about the same thing but from different perspectives. All i'm trying to illustrate is that Countervail is an actual 'thing' that's part of the layup of the CV racquets. It's not just a different way that Wilson laid up the construction of their racquets using the same materials (carbon fiber) they had before. Countervail is an existing, tangible 'thing' that's a layer (or many layers - I don't know the details of that) stuck within the regular carbon fiber layers that have been used in racquets for years.
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
PeterFig said:
:) I think we are talking about the same thing but from different perspectives. All i'm trying to illustrate is that Countervail is an actual 'thing' that's part of the layup of the CV racquets. It's not just a different way that Wilson laid up the construction of their racquets using the same materials (carbon fiber) they had before. Countervail is an existing, tangible 'thing' that's a layer (or many layers - I don't know the details of that) stuck within the regular carbon fiber layers that have been used in racquets for years.
Click to expand...

Ok, it's at least one special CV layer in a layup, that much is clear now.
But since this thread is about Ultra Tour and since you're here, can you confirm it won't have CV inside?
 
P

pauliewa

Rookie
All caught up on this thread. Holding my breath we all get exactly what we've been waiting so long for. Just how confirmed is the 249 price point?
 
Panquake

Panquake

Rookie
zalive said:
From what I understood, CV is a way of layup construction, not a material itself.
That reminds me that I must ask...



...we're really not actually sure whether H19 is a certain layup (or there's more layups), or H19 is just the name of the mold.
In case there is more than one layup made with H19 mold, then Wilson is safe to say Ultra Tour is H19 because of the mold, while layup may be different.

However don't expect Wilson to ever officially come out with the statement 'this is H19'. The reason is not however a matter of truth, let's say it is the truth. The reason is H19 is not publically known, and the truth that pro players used different racquets to ones players 'endorsed', or any implication of it, will never be heard from Wilson. Besides, such a statement about Ultra Tour being H19 doesn't have a marketing public value. It can only have a value if released in and through certain circles, like on this board, among players who know what H19 is and who will value the fact Wilson released it, and will be willing to buy it based on this info. Hopefully for Wilson voice will spread widely and pay off in sales.

However it would still be fair and a right thing to do if actual layup is the one (or one among the variety) that pro players actually get, because of its quality.
Click to expand...

A guy who works in the industry confirmed it is the same mold AND layup as an H19


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
Panquake said:
A guy who works in the industry confirmed it is the same mold AND layup as an H19
Click to expand...

Yes I saw it.
And @PeterFig just avoided confirming it doesn't have CV. H19 pro stock surely doesn't have CV in the layup because it's much older, so where's the problem in confirming it?
 
Panquake

Panquake

Rookie
zalive said:
Yes I saw it.
And @PeterFig just avoided confirming it doesn't have CV. H19 pro stock surely doesn't have CV in the layup because it's much older, so where's the problem in confirming it?
Click to expand...

I posted a pic with the barcode that said w/o countervail


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Panquake

Panquake

Rookie
zalive said:
I saw it was written w/o CVR, without cover. Was this the same picture?
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Yes, but no Wilson racket comes with a cover, so I doubt that's what it stands for. Even if they did, why would they specify that it came with one on the barcode


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tommy Haas

Tommy Haas

Hall of Fame
Panquake said:
A guy who works in the industry confirmed it is the same mold AND layup as an H19
Click to expand...

If this is true, I'm going to buy a couple just because it's an H19 and major props to Wilson. They've won back a customer.

pauliewa said:
All caught up on this thread. Holding my breath we all get exactly what we've been waiting so long for. Just how confirmed is the 249 price point?
Click to expand...

Damn that's expensive. It's almost Bryan brothers Prince exclusive expensive, but isn't MSRP/MAP always more expensive than actual retail pricing?
 
JohnBPittsburgh

JohnBPittsburgh

Hall of Fame
I would guess it will be released at $249 (MAP or Retail...same thing basically to you as a consumer) If it flies off the shelves, there might be sporadic sales. If no one grabs them, then they will put out some sales and eventually discount it when the next model comes out (or as more time passes from initial release). At least this is the pricing strategy for most tennis racquets. If you are friends with an AD (Authorized Dealer) then you can usually score them for less. But contractually, until Wilson says so, the price will remain at MAP (minimum advertised price). Most brick and mortar stores will sell for less than MAP if you press them, but they cannot advertise that they do this (they are getting DESTROYED by online retailers....they have to throw in free stringing and strings to try and compete with the online retailers and auction sites)

That's why if you check out all the major online retailers. They almost always are running the same sale on current models and are the same price (MAP)
 
Tommy Haas

Tommy Haas

Hall of Fame
If the Ultra Tour flies off the shelves. Wilson may sell the H22 if they can find a player to market it.

The sad part is that Head will still refuse to sell a pro stock frame or even admit they exist.
 
jmacdaununder2

jmacdaununder2

Legend
How could CVR be an abbreviation for Countervail? CounterVail Racquet? CountVaileR? :confused: Sorry, but those of us who have sold racquets have seen that W/O CVR nomenclature many times in days of yore...
 
Panquake

Panquake

Rookie
jmacdaununder2 said:
How could CVR be an abbreviation for Countervail? CounterVail Racquet? CountVaileR? :confused: Sorry, but those of us who have sold racquets have seen that W/O CVR nomenclature many times in days of yore...
Click to expand...

It was already cleared up that it stood for cover. And to answer your question, I'm dyslexic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
Crie said:
Looks like it - that is good news.

Wilson wouldn't take down the pics if they weren't concerned about the racquet
Click to expand...

F... me if I understand where's the trouble with few pics in advance.
It can only promote sales...
 
zalive

zalive

Hall of Fame
Zoolander said:
Why dont you complain to @Wilson Official....... oh wait thats right, there isnt one anymore!
Click to expand...

Lol :)
I've seen those pics, personally I don't care...more funny to me is how it's now a secret a composition of a racquet, whether it has countervail or not...this is something new, at least ingrediends were known and specified in this cookin' :)
 
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