Where will Martina Navratilova be placed in history?

TXKiteboarder

TXKiteboarder

Rookie
I just read her wimby and she mentioned that she is retiring end of this year. I am kind of shocked that nobody hasnt bringup the pt. that this will her last wimby.

Check out her career records: it beats Agassi hands down.
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/bios/profile/ws/wtan007.html

Here is the stats summary:
singles titles: 170
doubles titles: 131

singles majors won: 18
doubles majors won: 30

I am really surprised that she doesnt get the same or greater respect than agassi.

by the way: she plays mixed doubles tomorrow...


she has be a prime GOAT, right?
 
KBalla08

KBalla08

Semi-Pro
to me, best woman tennis player ever. even better than graff. just look at the amount of grand slams and theres your answer. she is an all around player, singles, dubs, mixed dubs, man thats amazing, and shes playing at the age of what, 49? danng
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
What do you mean by comparing her career to Agassi? That's comparing women's tennis to men's tennis, it's not even in the same ball park.

Of course she commands as much respect as Agassi, she's probably the greatest female player of all time. But she's retiring from doubles, so there is a difference.
 
skip1969

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
well, she's done things that no other female tennis player has, so that should set her pretty high on the list, i'd say. and i ain't just talking titles or slams, either. you could say she was a revolutionary in terms of the fitness mindset she brought to the game. that alone makes her a pioneer in the game.

i didn't know she was officially calling it quits this year. she's still in the doubles and mixed. you'd think (since all the americans got spanked) that the dorks at nbc and espn would give her a little airtime. i would think she'd inspire both the die-hard and the casual american more than any other american player right now. she's active at a high level, and at her age. she's a great spokesperson for the game, in general. she's still competative and obviously still enjoys and loves the game.
 
K

kooyah

Rookie
TXKiteboarder said:
she has be a prime GOAT, right?
Click to expand...

Um, yeah. Where have you been for the last decade or so? She and Steffi Graf have always been considered to be the greatest of all time.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
Yeah, why is this being discussed now? This was discussed a long time ago when she stopped playing singles. It has always been her and Steffi Graf at the top.
 
Exile

Exile

Professional
Man, everyone is leaving. Everything is changing. It's so uneasing to know that new faces we may or may not like will come and make things better or worse.

One truth prevails: Racket companies will still sell cheaper frames for high prices.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
KBalla08 said:
to me, best woman tennis player ever. even better than graff. just look at the amount of grand slams and theres your answer. she is an all around player, singles, dubs, mixed dubs, man thats amazing, and shes playing at the age of what, 49? danng
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I don't agree.
Graf vs. Navratilova is quality vs. quantity, IMO.
Graf played against tougher competition, lifted women's tennis onto a different plane (popularity-wise too!).

Condi
 
bribeiro

bribeiro

Banned
I don't think women should be even compared to men, men's tennis is just that much harder and competitive.
 
C

chiru

Professional
bribeiro said:
I don't think women should be even compared to men, men's tennis is just that much harder and competitive.
Click to expand...

i think most people dont compare the too. i mean sampras' 14 looks like childs play compared to margaret court and graf and such in terms of slam wins. but where sampras' accomplishments stand alone in his field, theres a buncha women with circa 20 slams.
 
Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Navratilova and Graf are in the same class. Although they have never met at both their peaks, a young Graf vs a peak Navratilova and an aging Navratilova vs a peak Graf is maybe a bit in balance. It is fitting that they were tied in their head to head meetings. Navratilova set the standards so that a player like Graf could continue it and players after her also did.

And for Chiru; there are not a bunch of women with 20 slams or more; only 2.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
Warriorroger said:
Navratilova and Graf are in the same class. Although they have never met at both their peaks, a young Graf vs a peak Navratilova and an aging Navratilova vs a peak Graf is maybe a bit in balance. It is fitting that they were tied in their head to head meetings. Navratilova set the standards so that a player like Graf could continue it and players after her also did.

And for Chiru; there are not a bunch of women with 20 slams or more; only 2.
Click to expand...


I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. Don't forget that she won her first slam at age 21, her third slam at 25, her last slam at 33 and made her last slam final at 37. In 1988 she was 31.
She had a streak of 70-3 win/losses in 1989/90. All those losses came against - Steffi Graf.
She had only 5 years with a better winning percentage than 1988 & 1989.

BTW, Graf didn't need Navratilova to set any standards so she could "continue" anything .... :D

Condi
 
Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Condoleezza said:
I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. Don't forget that she won her first slam at age 21, her third slam at 25, her last slam at 33 and made her last slam final at 37. In 1988 she was 31.
She had a streak of 70-3 win/losses in 1989/90. All those losses came against - Steffi Graf.
She had only 5 years with a better winning percentage than 1988 & 1989.

BTW, Graf didn't need Navratilova to set any standards so she could "continue" anything .... :D

Condi
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You address me as Sir or by my rank, before you reply to my posts. Don't YOU forget.
 
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superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
I don't think that Navratilova was "aging" in 1988. In 1988 she was 31.
Click to expand...
LOL. What planet are you on? A 31 year old tennis player is aged, not just aging! That fact that she continued to have such great results just points to her genius and work ethic.
 
superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
Navratilova is the greatest female serve and volley player of all time. I don't think it's useful to declare any player the greatest of all time in general, because Navratilova would have never had the results she had as a baseliner, and Federer would have never had the results he's had playing Santoro-style. I think we should be more specific. For instance, "greatest male and female clay courters". Obviously Nadal would rank higher than Federer in that category. Navratilova wins GOAT in a number of categories, but not all. She admitted she learned the forehand down the line (or was it backhand?) in her 40s. Any baseliner would have that shot down.
 
eunjam

eunjam

Rookie
she's great, but unfortunately for me, she will be up there with gordie howe.

great in their sport, but huge whiners.

navratilova threw a fit that wimby placed her last match on the outer courts.

cry me a river.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
superstition said:
LOL. What planet are you on? A 31 year old tennis player is aged, not just aging! That fact that she continued to have such great results just points to her genius and work ethic.
Click to expand...

Then her winning only TWO slam before age 25 shows that she lacks genius.:D

No, Navratilova simply matured later than other players. She won her third slam at 25, made her last slam final at age 37.

Martina at age 31 can be compared to Graf at age 24/25.

Don't forget - without Graf being dominant in 1989 Navratilova would have had a 70-match winning streak that year!!!
1988 and 1989 were Martina's 6th and 7th best years anyway. She was at least very close to her peak form. Nevertheless she was thoroughly trounced by Graf on her favourite venue, Wimbledon. In 1988's Wimbledon final she lost the last 7 consecutive service games against the German superstar!

Condi
 
tennus

tennus

Rookie
Mick said:
I would put Martina Navratilova at the top but that is just me.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. Outspoken and opinionated off the court but this does not negate her ability as a tennis player. Her longevity(winning WTA singles matches in her late forties) makes ageing greats like Agassi look ordinary (and yet I do respect Agassi as one of the greatest players of all time). :)
 
Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
tennus said:
Yes I agree. Outspoken and opinionated off the court but this does not negate her ability as a tennis player. Her longevity(winning WTA singles matches in her late forties) makes ageing greats like Agassi look ordinary (and yet I do respect Agassi as one of the greatest players of all time). :)
Click to expand...


Again we should have two lists concerning greats: men and women. It's a different ballgame. Even though Steffi Graf is the last player to win the Grandslam, she wasn't mentioned in the AO 2006 when they talked about Roger Federer's chances for the Grandslam, many will say, ''will he be the first since Rod Laver'', although Steffi is the only one of the 5 (Margaret, Don, Rod, Maureen) who won the Grandslam on four different surfaces. (Rebound Ace, Clay, Grass and Concrete). That's just the way it is. Therefore I don't think it's fair comparing Navratilova vs Agassi. He was still a force at 36 in the men's circuit. Navratilova wasn't really at 36 in singles.


She and Graf belong in the same class concerning greatness, the first for her allround achievements and the latter for her single achievements on all four surfaces. I would never seperate them at the top, and I think Federer and Sampras are headed for the same.
 
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C

Condoleezza

Banned
capriatifanatic said:
She is right up there. Only Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, and Evert are in her league.
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I agree.

The leagues are the following, IMO:

League 1 (GOAT): Steffi Graf (in a league of her own)

League 2 (all-time greats): Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, Navratilova.

League 3 (greats): Connolly, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Seles, S. Williams, V. Williams, Henin.


Condi
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
Warriorroger said:
Again we should have two lists concerning greats: men and women. It's a different ballgame. Even though Steffi Graf is the last player to win the Grandslam, she wasn't mentioned in the AO 2006 when they talked about Roger Federer's chances for the Grandslam, many will say, ''will he be the first since Rod Laver'', although Steffi is the only one of the 5 (Margaret, Don, Rod, Maureen) who won the Grandslam on four different surfaces. (Rebound Ace, Clay, Grass and Concrete). That's just the way it is. Therefore I don't think it's fair comparing Navratilova vs Agassi. He was still a force at 36 in the men's circuit. Navratilova wasn't really at 36 in singles. ....
Click to expand...


Navratilova was #3-5 at age 36, beat both Graf and Seles. Made a slam final at 37.
What did Agassi win after his 36th birthday?

Condi
 
Rabbit

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Condoleezza said:
She was at least very close to her peak form. Nevertheless she was thoroughly trounced by Graf on her favourite venue, Wimbledon.
Condi
Click to expand...

Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. This is hardly what I'd call a trouncing. Especially considering Navratilova was in her 33rd year playing after all of her contemporaries had retired. If anything, that says to me that the rest of the tour was not as strong.

As a matter of fact, of their 17 meetings, 8 were won in straight sets with Navratilova winning 5 of those. So, if it didn't go the distance, odds were that it went Navratilova.

For my money the Navratilova/Evert rivaly defined her peak years. That rivalry went 44-36 Navratilova and spanned 1973 - 1988 which was the beginning of Graf's years at the top.

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous which is par for the course as far as you're concerned. Navratilova's longevity has qualified her to many as GOAT among women, that and her ability to win any and all and to be as dominant at doubles. She won every Grand Slam title in singles all the while competing in doubles and mixed doubles. She was the last of the old school players.

If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot. So, in the final analysis, she beats Graf by 3 Grand Slam titles.
 
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Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
Rabbit said:
Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. This is hardly what I'd call a trouncing. Especially considering Navratilova was in her 33rd year playing after all of her contemporaries had retired. If anything, that says to me that the rest of the tour was not as strong.

As a matter of fact, of their 17 meetings, 8 were won in straight sets with Navratilova winning 5 of those. So, if it didn't go the distance, odds were that it went Navratilova.

For my money the Navratilova/Evert rivaly defined her peak years. That rivalry went 44-36 Navratilova and spanned 1973 - 1988 which was the beginning of Graf's years at the top.

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous which is par for the course as far as you're concerned. Navratilova's longevity has qualified her to many as GOAT among women, that and her ability to win any and all and to be as dominant at doubles. She won every Grand Slam title in singles all the while competing in doubles and mixed doubles. She was the last of the old school players.

If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot. So, in the final analysis, she beats Graf by 3 Grand Slam titles.
Click to expand...


Rabbit edit your head to head before that lunatic responds. Graf - Navratilova is 9 - 9. (BTW Graf played her best tennis in 1995/6)
 
Swinging Simian

Swinging Simian

Rookie
I'd nominate the lady as one of the best volleyers in the game. I mean what is she 50 and still kicks ass at net? That includes men and women, she doesn't seem to care about gender when she's kicking ass.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
Rabbit said:
Why don't you examine the facts before making such outlandish statements.

Graf/Navratilova 9 - 8 head to head.

They played 3 times on grass. The only straight set win in the 3 was won by Navratilova. Graf did win their final meeting on grass, Wimbledon 1989 6-2,6-7,6-1. ....

What you're in effect saying is that Navratilova was in peak form after being on tour for 15 years and winning 15 or her 18 Grand Slam titles? You really can't be serious, can you?

There is no denying Graf's dominance during her time at the top. But to denigrate previous champions is disingenuous ....
Click to expand...


1) The 1987 Wimbledon final was the closest of the 3 Graf-Navratilova finals. In 1987 Navratilova made only 5 points more than Graf (68-63).
But in 1988 Graf was ahead with 19 (97-78) and in 1989 with 16 points (90-74).

2) Navratilova won her third (of 18!) slam at age 25. You don't want to tell me that she was "over the hill" already just 6 years later?
Compare: Graf won her third slam in 1988 at age 18. So you want to say she was "too old" at age 24???

3) I don't denigrate Navratilova. To the contrary - I proved that she was still at her peak even in 1988/89.
Don't forget that she had a 67-3 win/loss streak in 1989/90 with ALL those 3 defeats coming at the hands of - Steffi Graf.
So it is safe to say that without Graf Martina would have had a 70-match winning streak. And you want to tell me that is not "peak"?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Condi
 
G

Grimjack

Banned
Assume for a second, that Martina would have had her closest rival stabbed in the back, in her rival's fifth year of pro tennis. That would mean Chris Evert would become a non-factor starting in 1975.

From '75 on, Chrissie personally knocked Martina out of 8 Grand Slams.

In order to weigh even the Grand Slam total #'s between Martina and Steffi on equal footing, you have to add 8 to Martina's number to account for effect of the stabbing.

The inescapable conclusion is that Martina was a far greater player than Steffi.

Martina > Monica = Chrissie > Steffi.
 
superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
Condoleezza said:
Then her winning only TWO slam before age 25 shows that she lacks genius.:D
Click to expand...
It has everything to do with fitness. Bob called her the "Great Wide Hope". Everyone knows how she gained too much weight from fast food. She did, though, have muscle in 78, which you can clearly see in her arms. It was her fat percentage that needed to improve. Plus, she had to face a young Chris Evert with wood, which made serve and volley a bit tougher.
 
superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
Rabbit said:
If we are to base GOAT solely on Grand Slam titles, Margaret Court is the clear GOAT. She has more Grand Slam titles than anyone and a Grand Slam to boot.
Click to expand...
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?
 
Warriorroger

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
superstition said:
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?
Click to expand...


Graf has faced more opponents of great tennis than Navratilova. In 1999 she was playing the Williams in early rounds (Sydney Adidas open). Navratilova never had to face that kind of power in her days. Graf has winning record against all the generations she faced except for the head to head with Martina. So I am not denying her greatness, but Graf post 1995 had far more good opponents than Martina.
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
Grimjack said:
Assume for a second, that Martina would have had her closest rival stabbed in the back, in her rival's fifth year of pro tennis. That would mean Chris Evert would become a non-factor starting in 1975. ....
Click to expand...


Even if - IF! - we assume that Evert would not have played for more than two years she would have been back in 1977. Maybe Navratilova would have made the USO 75 final without Evert. But would she have beaten Goolagong??
Evert didn't stop Martina in 1975-77 on any other occasion .....

Condi
 
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C

Condoleezza

Banned
superstition said:
I think most analysts say Martina was the better player (once she got in shape), though. While she was aided by improvements in racquets, through a combination of tennis brilliance and a very high level of fitness, she was able to do things like have an 86-1 record in singles one year, while playing doubles/mixed simultaneously in tournaments. Did Court win mixed slam titles in her 40s? Was the field as deep in Court's time as it was during Martina's? Martina had to face Evert, Graf, and Seles. Did Court have to face players of that caliber? She had to face King somewhat, right? Who else?
Click to expand...


Navratilova won 15 of her 18 slams in 1981-87. Absolute clown era. Only opponent was Evert, a clay-court specialist. And then Mandlikova, Shriver, Turnbull, Jaeger types ....

Condi
 
A

alwaysatnet

Semi-Pro
You would have to say fairly that Navratilova's competition for so many years was not of the highest quality.That doesn't diminish her accomplishments but make Graf's more impressive.
 
VikingSamurai

VikingSamurai

Banned
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..
 
U

urban

Legend
i think, Wills-Moody has 19 majors, despite never playing in Australia. Some experts like Lance Tingay and Laurie Pigneon always rated Little Mo Connolly as the best. Was a hard hitting Chris Evert with nerves out of steel. Imo Martina and Graf are awfully hard to rank against each other. Martina was better on fast courts, better in doubles, had more longevity and more titles won. She was the better stylist, but had weak nerves.Steffi was the better allrounder, having won each major 4 times, better on clay, better in the clutch. While Martina worked herself into a bionic woman, Steffi was the better natural athlete. In short: Both belong on the highest level, Mo and Seles could have been the best, if their careers would have lasted longer.. When Martina was asked by the BBC in 2003 about the 3 greatest players of all time, she named Laver, Graf and herself. Vice versa, Graf has the highest respect for Navratilova.
 
The Gorilla

The Gorilla

Banned
chris_in_japan said:
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..
Click to expand...


margerat court was beaten by a 65 year old man!
 
C

Condoleezza

Banned
chris_in_japan said:
Do your homework.

Australian Open's 11, French Open's 5, Wimbledon's 3, US Open's 5.. In all 24 singles Grand Slam Championships, and a year end personal Grand Slam.. Dont get me started on Doubles and Mixed Doubles..

Australia's Margaret Court was the greatest woman player..

Period..

Steffi Graff has 22, and then Martina is tied third with Evert at 18 singles titles..
Click to expand...

AO has far less prestige than, say, Wimbledon.
We should adopt the famous 7543 system (Wimbledon 7 pts., USO 5 pts., FO 4 pts. and AO 3 pts.).

That gives Court 11x3 + 5x4 + 3x7 + 5x5 = 99 pts.
Graf: 4x3 + 6x4 + 7x7 + 5x5 = 110 pts.
Navratilova: 3x3 + 2x4 + 9x7 + 4x5 = 100 pts.
Evert: 2x3 + 7x4 + 3x7 + 6x5 = 85 pts.

Condi
 
VikingSamurai

VikingSamurai

Banned
Gee.. How about we just have people who won the US Open only.. Like I mean, all the other tournaments arent prestigeous enough are they?

Come on, give me a break.. People who say that the Australian Open doesnt have prestige, or it doesnt count is a goose.. If it is given the status of a Grand Slam. Then its a fricken Grand Slam.. If someone didnt win the Australian Open for this reason or that. Then thats their fault..

If you are going to take away the 11 Aussie Opens from Court, purely because you think Steffi Graff should be No 1. Then all you are doing is deluding yourself of the truth and trying to change history!..

I am sorry, but history has been written, and as much as I loved Steffi Graff. She will be and always will be the No 2..

Margaret Courts Record will never be broken.. And the fact that she won so many times on different surfaces can only make her legacy that little more special. That is why Steffi's 22 singles titles, and a year end Grand Slam can put her in courts league, but still not no 1...
 
oberyn

oberyn

Professional
chris_in_japan said:
Yeah, but, none of the women could, and if I remember correctly, thats who she was supposed to be playing in order to win those tournaments?
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LOL. I was just correcting the poster who said she lost to a 65-year-old man. ;)

I think Margaret Court is on the short list of the greatest players of all time. Her accomplishments are staggering, and her loss to Riggs in 1973 does absolutely nothing, IMO, to diminish those accomplishments.
 
VikingSamurai

VikingSamurai

Banned
ok, sorry if I took it the wrong way.. Like I mean, although I am Australian, I am not Margaret Courts love child or anything. But when you sit down and look at the facts, as you said, it is pretty staggering. Then you can add the doubles and mixed titles aswell.. I remember as a kid, no-one was ever going to break the mens record. And then came Pete. So Australia needs to be allowed to atleast keep Courts record to be proud of.. Pete took our mens record. Or is he tied?
 
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