This infamous "Female pro vs. 4.0 man" shows a problem many of us have.

HunterST

HunterST

Hall of Fame
This video went around a few years ago. It sparked a lot of debate about the actual level of the players in the video. PLEASE AVOID THIS!!

Their actual levels are not important to this discussion. What I want to talk about is the issue the female has in the match, especially in the first few games. She is clearly the aggressor and can hit higher quality shots, but the male is a talented defender with good consistency and a great ability to play within himself.

As I watched the female hit several great shots, be on the offensive during the whole point, and finally miss and lose the point, I was struck by how similar this is to some of my matches. In fact, I would bet video of my matches would look very similar, in terms of how the points play out. I think a lot of "good hitters" who struggle in matches have the same experience.

So, looking at the video, what strategies could the female player have used to win the point more cleanly and reduce the errors? How could she have used her superior power and placement more efficiently?

Just to be clear, this guy and the opponents we're discussing are NOT pushers. These players are more than capable of hitting a firm shot or making you pay for a crappy approach shot.


 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
I don't know why this particular video is different than any other on the subject. Everyone at all levels has problems playing a good retriever who just runs side to side slapping back 20 foot high balls. Some call it a pusher. Some don't.

You may not want to discuss it, but I will say that the level of the players is a critical factor. To my eyes, there would be days where she would easily bagel the guy on the other side -- probably way more often than not. This is a sample of one pro set where she just had a bad day and made some UEs. But it is evident that the entire set was on her racquet. And she still crushed the guys.

If you want a video that is much more informative -- I wouldn't use this troll bait video. I think a much better video is the Baskin Park 4.5 pusher. Two players of similar level -- one is a very skilled pusher and the other is a counter-puncher.

 
HunterST

HunterST

Hall of Fame
mightyrick said:
I don't know why this particular video is different than any other on the subject. Everyone at all levels has problems playing a good retriever who just runs side to side slapping back 20 foot high balls. Some call it a pusher. Some don't.

You may not want to discuss it, but I will say that the level of the players is a critical factor. To my eyes, there would be days where she would easily bagel the guy on the other side -- probably way more often than not. This is a sample of one pro set where she just had a bad day and made some UEs. But it is evident that the entire set was on her racquet. And she still crushed the guys.

If you want a video that is much more informative -- I wouldn't use this troll bait video. I think a much better video is the Baskin Park 4.5 pusher. Two players of similar level -- one is a very skilled pusher and the other is a counter-puncher.

Click to expand...

Actually the original video is more representative of the experience I'm talking about than yours. I'm talking about ONLY the first few games where she loses or comes close. When I watched those games, it struck me as exactly what happened in a recent match of mine. One player is the clear aggressor, the match is on his/her racquet, but the other player is a great defender. I think talking about her strategy would be a more direct carryover to my game.
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
HunterST said:
When I watched those games, it struck me as exactly what happened in a recent match of mine. One player is the clear aggressor, the match is on his/her racquet, but the other player is a great defender. I think talking about her strategy would be a more direct carryover to my game.
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying, but it's really hard about just a few games in a match. Maybe she was nervous? Maybe not warmed up? She'd never played the guy before. Also, playing "ugly" players tends to screw up a better player's game at first. I think we all experience that.

But regardless of those first few games, she continued to go for all of her shots without fail, she mostly played within herself, she didn't let the guy off at all, and she beat the guy.

That is a sound strategy.
 
speedysteve

speedysteve

Legend
Yeah the first match was her wanting a few rallys / being nice to him to give him a few games.
She hit a few inexplicable shots in the net, and quite a few with little on them he could moonball back.
Move along..
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Is_This_a_Pigeon_08062018081544.jpg


J
 
HunterST

HunterST

Hall of Fame
A good chunk of the video is very competitive games. I think it's perfectly legitimate to look at those and think about what strategies could have been more effective for the stronger hitter. This is not criticizing the female player. She is good enough to find her rhythm and ultimately win easily. For other players, entire matches will play out much like the first couple of games did.
 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
HunterST said:
This video went around a few years ago. It sparked a lot of debate about the actual level of the players in the video. PLEASE AVOID THIS!!

Their actual levels are not important to this discussion. What I want to talk about is the issue the female has in the match, especially in the first few games. She is clearly the aggressor and can hit higher quality shots, but the male is a talented defender with good consistency and a great ability to play within himself.

As I watched the female hit several great shots, be on the offensive during the whole point, and finally miss and lose the point, I was struck by how similar this is to some of my matches. In fact, I would bet video of my matches would look very similar, in terms of how the points play out. I think a lot of "good hitters" who struggle in matches have the same experience.

So, looking at the video, what strategies could the female player have used to win the point more cleanly and reduce the errors? How could she have used her superior power and placement more efficiently?

Just to be clear, this guy and the opponents we're discussing are NOT pushers. These players are more than capable of hitting a firm shot or making you pay for a crappy approach shot.


Click to expand...

Her play does not impress me. At all. He's not a 4.0, either.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Why do you put "good hitters" in quotes?

Either you are a good hitter that can win points or you suck.

You're trying hard with convoluted logics or excuses for how you lose. That sums up your problem here.
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
I'm still not seeing what the controversy with the initial video is. What I saw was a really good player who basically started slow for a few games (for whatever reason)... and then beat the crap out of a lesser player.

I've also never seen a significantly higher-level player try hard against a significantly inferior player. I'm sorry, but if a 5.0 plays a 4.0... the 5.0 is not going to give their best. Never. If I am playing a 3.0, there's no way I'm going all out at 100%. Nobody dunks on a blind kid.

That's why I like the Baskin Park pusher video better. It is two players at basically the same level trying to solve their own part of the puzzle. The pusher was having his own issues trying to neutralize the counter-puncher... and the counter-puncher was having issues deciding which balls were the right balls to "go for it" or hit a setup-shot. To me, that puzzle is much more indicative of the struggle we go through when playing retrievers/pushers.

In the original video, all I saw was Macall rallying with a far inferior player for fun and giggles.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
mightyrick said:
I've also never seen a significantly higher-level player try hard against a significantly inferior player. I'm sorry, but if a 5.0 plays a 4.0... the 5.0 is not going to give their best. Never. If I am playing a 3.0, there's no way I'm going all out at 100%. Nobody dunks on a blind kid.
Click to expand...

This is also my style. It jives well with my personality and philosophy. I function best under pressure/intensity so in an otherwise situation I relax. An added benefit from a lopsided match is it's an opportunity for you to try new things. You can also "hustle" other players better. LOL make that two benefits.

I've been doing this so well that a few of my peers, mainly older guys and women, gladly accepted my challenge where I gave them FIVE games in advance to play a set for lunch. Hehe. I play a lot of "understated" games where my opponents think the odd is overwhelmingly in their favor but come out surprised. That's where the fun is for me.
 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
Are you serious? She made numerous unforced errors, and he showed no capability for tactical play. She showed little. He is not a 4.0 by any stretch of the imagination. His strokes are loopy, weak, and easily attacked. His movement is only reactive.
 
R

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
In a real best of 3 on this day she wins 62 60. On the next day she wins 60 60 if she plays him again. She is way better. Does not compare to rec tennis. She dropped 2 games from boredom. She knows she is going to win. So didnt give any sort of full effort.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Wise one said:
Are you serious? She made numerous unforced errors, and he showed no capability for tactical play. She showed little. He is not a 4.0 by any stretch of the imagination. His strokes are loopy, weak, and easily attacked. His movement is only reactive.
Click to expand...

Maybe you will be able to learn from your mistakes and get better at judging players.

J
 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
rogerroger917 said:
In a real best of 3 on this day she wins 62 60. On the next day she wins 60 60 if she plays him again. She is way better. Does not compare to rec tennis. She dropped 2 games from boredom. She knows she is going to win. So didnt give any sort of full effort.
Click to expand...

She is better, but that is not saying much.
 
R

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
mightyrick said:
I'm still not seeing what the controversy with the initial video is. What I saw was a really good player who basically started slow for a few games (for whatever reason)... and then beat the crap out of a lesser player.

I've also never seen a significantly higher-level player try hard against a significantly inferior player. I'm sorry, but if a 5.0 plays a 4.0... the 5.0 is not going to give their best. Never. If I am playing a 3.0, there's no way I'm going all out at 100%. Nobody dunks on a blind kid.

That's why I like the Baskin Park pusher video better. It is two players at basically the same level trying to solve their own part of the puzzle. The pusher was having his own issues trying to neutralize the counter-puncher... and the counter-puncher was having issues deciding which balls were the right balls to "go for it" or hit a setup-shot. To me, that puzzle is much more indicative of the struggle we go through when playing retrievers/pushers.

In the original video, all I saw was Macall rallying with a far inferior player for fun and giggles.
Click to expand...
Agree. I'm sure she didn't even want to bother running for the balls.
 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
J011yroger said:
Whether you consider 700 WTA and 4.5 USTA good or not is irrelevant and doesn't change the fact that is what they are.

J
Click to expand...

LOL. Hilarious. I know lots of players, and have seen many many hours of tennis. I know what's what. Look at his serve! It's like a 9-year-old child's!
 
P

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Wise one said:
LOL. Hilarious. I know lots of players, and have seen many many hours of tennis. I know what's what. Look at his serve! It's like a 9-year-old child's!
Click to expand...
I don't think most of us have the opportunity to play good players like this. To put it in perspective, i am a 4.0. I practice with a junior academy kid, she's 12. On a good day, i can take her to a tie break. Now imagine what a 700 in the world can do to a 4.0 or 4.5.
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
Wise one said:
How does that explain her many netted shots?
Click to expand...

She was going for her shots. She beat the guy 8-2. The guy couldn't win another game after she gifted him two games. She was nowhere near playing at full effort. She tanked the entire match. Hell, she wasn't even serving at 100%. The last few points of the match, she was basically toying with him rallying up the middle with heavy topspin... until she got bored and decided to run him wide.

Look at this video of Harkins playing an exhibition match against another high-level player. She is absolutely CRUSHING the ball. Absolutely amazing footwork and preparation. None of that weak sauce against the guy in OP's video. In OP's video, it looks like she's sleeping so she can collect her check and get off the court.

Fast forward to 4:58

 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
Power Player said:
Congrats. Maybe in the next life you can put all that work into something you actually end up being good at. It will really help alleviate all that bitterness you put out here on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...

LOL.

Neither player impresses. Nothing to gawk at, at all.
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
HunterST said:
As I watched the female hit several great shots, be on the offensive during the whole point, and finally miss and lose the point, I was struck by how similar this is to some of my matches. In fact, I would bet video of my matches would look very similar, in terms of how the points play out. I think a lot of "good hitters" who struggle in matches have the same experience.

So, looking at the video, what strategies could the female player have used to win the point more cleanly and reduce the errors? How could she have used her superior power and placement more efficiently?
Click to expand...
If you are looking to relate this to you and your play specifically, then you have to tell us what are your strengths / weaknesses. What is it you try to do to win points? What are your "go to" patterns?

If you just play "hit hard; hit harder; hope the guy makes an error", then you will probably lose against most pushers / retrievers. But there are several patterns of play that will work against a pusher. The question is, which patterns can you execute often enough to win the match.

And then there is the issue that not all pushers are the same. But let's pretend they are for now so we don't over complicate this.
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
I think the op's original question is what can an aggressive player who feels like he/she is the better player do when they find they are losing to a player with perceive lesser technique who is simply playing steady and running hard.

Isn't the answer, the aggressive player needs to find the right level of aggression? In most situations, I think if the "better" aggressive player settles their nerves, gets into the match and isn't overly aggressive; they will win. In some cases, the aggressive player might even need to push to be even more aggressive but that's less likely. In the pro female video vs 4.0 male, it looks like she just settled into the match and was a little more patient on pulling the trigger and she pulled way ahead.

But, sometimes you feel like the better player with better technique and still lose to the perceived lesser player. This could be due to a variety of reasons. Maybe your aren't as good as you perceive. Maybe you just had an off day - tired, bad mood... Maybe the perceived lesser player has an outstanding attribute beyond smooth technique that makes him/her the better player - some people are just better athletes with good hand/eye and can win with uglier games.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Wise one said:
He looks more like 3.5 to me. And she looks like a fair college player, no more.
Click to expand...

Ntrp varies due to your area. I think you live in florida and we are at least +.5 over other area's.

But i agree, he has a flat/slice 2nd serve. Thats 3.5 around here
 
Wise one

Wise one

Hall of Fame
Chadillac said:
Ntrp varies due to your area. I think you live in florida and we are at least +.5 over other area's.

But i agree, he has a flat/slice 2nd serve. Thats 3.5 around here
Click to expand...

No, I live in Ohio. The ratings around her are rather strict. There's no way he's a 4.5. Not even close.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Wise one said:
No, I live in Ohio. The ratings around her are rather strict. There's no way he's a 4.5. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Ohio is baddie land, sorry :( Nothing personal, but florida is their own district in comparison, your district is like 5 states.

"The OVTA is one of 14 districts of the USTA/******* Section which in turn is the governing body of tennis in a section of the United States covering Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, western West Virginia and a tip of northern Kentucky"

These forums seems to even censor the word "mid west", no idea why
 
r2473

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Wise one said:
No, I live in Ohio. The ratings around her are rather strict. There's no way he's a 4.5. Not even close.
Click to expand...
Are the ratings results based in Ohio? Or are they assigned by a knowledgeable person (such as yourself perhaps) based on what they see?

In my area, ratings are assigned by results. And not all 4.5's in my area look pretty. Some are ugly but effective.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Wise one said:
No, I live in Ohio. The ratings around her are rather strict. There's no way he's a 4.5. Not even close.
Click to expand...
He probably trips up a lot of players with his unconventional style. Heck, the guy in the white here is an open level player but a lot of people wouldn't think so looking at him:

 
HunterST

HunterST

Hall of Fame
user92626 said:
Why do you put "good hitters" in quotes?

Either you are a good hitter that can win points or you suck.

You're trying hard with convoluted logics or excuses for how you lose. That sums up your problem here.
Click to expand...

No. You're overreaching to use the "tough dose of reality" post.

It's completely inaccurate to say "either you're a good hitter that can win points or you suck." There are all different types of abilities and strategies that can win or lose. Some people have great, technically sound strokes that can produce a lot of spin/pace, but they have poor shot selection or tactics. Others lack pace and spin but can play great defense and make strong game plans. That's exactly why I said "good hitters." A good hitter is not necessarily a great player. I was pretty clear in saying that.
 
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