Ideal real world progression of learning tennis?

samarai said:

the kid's motivation is to play good enough to turn pro, get scholarships to colleges, i.e. start a foundation in tennis for possible coaching opportunities. Your motivation is to get better so u can beat up on your buddies and be the king of the recreation tennis courts.

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user92626 said:

There are a lot of faulty assumptions in the op post. I certainly don't agree that I (or many) "develop bad habits that need to be unlearned." Speaking for myself I don't have bad habits that I care about. My tennis is as perfect as it gets for my level and purpose, and I win a lot too!

What exactly is "the harder adult journey"?

What's with the obsession over pusher vs whatnot in this place?

If you keep losing by continuing to hit too hard or too easy, you are simply an idiotic competitor. If you care to compete to win, you'll need to change from the current style. Other than that if you think it's fun to play with racket and ball in certain ways, any ways are fine. Rec tennis is rule-less and undefined.

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CT-Topspin said:

I think for some people like TTPS the joy of tennis is not just in winning, but in the progression that comes with investing a significant amount of resources into getting better.

What I've noticed though (I'm guilty of this as well), is that when you choose this approach, you might feel resentment towards somebody that beats you in a way that doesn't fit your model of how you learned tennis. It takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to hit the ball in the "correct" manner and when you try to execute this style against somebody that is content to win in an unconventional style that is a result of them adapting to their own habits, it can cause frustration.

This is definitely an issue of ego. It can be difficult not to conflate improvement with success in matches which is where I believe some of this resentment towards "pushers" comes from.

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CT-Topspin said:

I think for some people like TTPS the joy of tennis is not just in winning, but in the progression that comes with investing a significant amount of resources into getting better.

What I've noticed though (I'm guilty of this as well), is that when you choose this approach, you might feel resentment towards somebody that beats you in a way that doesn't fit your model of how you learned tennis. It takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to hit the ball in the "correct" manner and when you try to execute this style against somebody that is content to win in an unconventional style that is a result of them adapting to their own habits, it can cause frustration.

This is definitely an issue of ego. It can be difficult not to conflate improvement with success in matches which is where I believe some of this resentment towards "pushers" comes from.

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user92626 said:

It's more than an issue of ego, it's also an issue of shortsightedness or of blindness to the world outside. They cannot see / comprehend that there are other ways to learn good (better) tennis other than their way, or others are just simply more talented.

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FiReFTW said:

Pushers can probably beat alot of lower level players but once you progress to higher levels of tennis theres no way a pusher will beat you, 4.0+ level I mean.

@nytennisaddict would crush any pusher with ease 6:0 6:0

And im not talking about defensive counterpunchers or what not, by pusher I trully mean pusher, dinking and hitting slow balls and bunting balls and just trying to get everything in.

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FiReFTW said:

Pushers can probably beat alot of lower level players but once you progress to higher levels of tennis theres no way a pusher will beat you, 4.0+ level I mean.

@nytennisaddict would crush any pusher with ease 6:0 6:0

And im not talking about defensive counterpunchers or what not, by pusher I trully mean pusher, dinking and hitting slow balls and bunting balls and just trying to get everything in.

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Vanhalen said:

The embarrassing thing is taking years of expensive lessons, practicing every day, having a bag full of the latest high tech rackets and strings strings finely tuned to your specifications, perfectly designed latest shoes and attire.

As TTPS is practicing some serves on the city parks courts, along walks up a random older guy wanting to play. Has one Wal-Mart $7.99 cheap prestrung racquet with a worn out grip. Old running shoes stained green from mowing the lawn. An old tee shirt from Froot of the Loom and cargo shorts with a belt.

He slices and dices and dinks you to death with strokes with the looks of a 9 year old girl. You lose.......now what do you do?

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Vanhalen said:

The embarrassing thing is taking years of expensive lessons, practicing every day, having a bag full of the latest high tech rackets and strings strings finely tuned to your specifications, perfectly designed latest shoes and attire.

As TTPS is practicing some serves on the city parks courts, along walks up a random older guy wanting to play. Has one Wal-Mart $7.99 cheap prestrung racquet with a worn out grip. Old running shoes stained green from mowing the lawn. An old tee shirt from Froot of the Loom and cargo shorts with a belt.

He slices and dices and dinks you to death with strokes with the looks of a 9 year old girl. You lose.......now what do you do?

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CT-Topspin said:

You shake his hand and thank him for the opportunity to play. Like any loss you use it as a learning experience to make you a better player.

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nytennisaddict said:

hehe, i'm certain i'd beat a 3.5 pusher 0,0
but would probably lose to a 5.0 "pusher"

on the forums, i've realized that, "pusher" is meant to describe anyone, regardless of technique, who gets alot of neutral balls back (deep), typically with not alot of threatening pace, infrequently trying to dictate play... but you can play a pretty high level with this style.

i tend to reserve "pusher" to describe folks with bunty stroke technique, can't hit topspin, and therefore can't "swing out"... so all they can do is redirect pace... ie. folks at the 3.5 level that never took a lesson.

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FiReFTW said:

For me a 5.0 pusher doesn't exist, neither does a 4.5 pusher, players at such a high level have some weapons and can use them to destroy 3.5 or 4.0 players, pusher for me means someone who just bunts the ball back and doesn't really have a high tennis level.

There are players who play a fairly safe game at higher levels but those are more defensive minded players, but when they get a right ball or short ball they will attack because they have the shots to do so.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

We can all agree that most players casually learn on their own and develop bad habits that need to be unlearned. Most often these habits are never broken and stay for life. (It takes months of drilling to change habits) On the other end of the spectrum, a kid at an academy is taught not to think, but to perform the strokes. He is a tabula rasa, a trained monkey. No bad habits, since he learns the right strokes from day one. Supervised. But, what is the motivation for this kid? Anecdotally, my motivation to get better at tennis was playing with friends and wanting to get better. The 2nd kid risks simply never actually enjoying the game, since it's presented as a purely technical exercise, not a fun game with friends.


Also, who has the harder adult journey ahead of him?

A) A pusher with 3.0 strokes who learns to win matches by playing smart tennis (hit away from opponent, just keep the ball in play, no poor risk taking, drop shot -> lob, never DFs, etc) He intuitively understands how to win tennis matches, but needs to develop offense to be a complete player.

B) Guy who learns to hit hard, lots of spin, but never develops the pusher mindset. Beats himself with many UE's. This player can hit the ball, but needs to learn how to hit the ball in play to win matches (against weaker players)

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ChaelAZ said:

So the irony of it all for me, and I get a little laugh out of it thinking about it, is that I have dropped level, dropped fitness, have less power and longevity on court, but for the time I am out there My strokes look prettier and shots are more polished. lol.

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mcs1970 said:

The best argument to keep doing drills and practices even as you age is not to make any radical jump in levels as much as to delay the decline that will inevitably happen due to increasing age. Plus, if you're going to be the old guy who loses, might as well be the old guy who loses with prettier looking shots.

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nytennisaddict said:

hehe, i'm certain i'd beat a 3.5 pusher 0,0
but would probably lose to a 5.0 "pusher"

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Vanhalen said:

The embarrassing thing is taking years of expensive lessons, practicing every day, having a bag full of the latest high tech rackets and strings strings finely tuned to your specifications, perfectly designed latest shoes and attire.

As TTPS is practicing some serves on the city parks courts, along walks up a random older guy wanting to play. Has one Wal-Mart $7.99 cheap prestrung racquet with a worn out grip. Old running shoes stained green from mowing the lawn. An old tee shirt from Froot of the Loom and cargo shorts with a belt.

He slices and dices and dinks you to death with strokes with the looks of a 9 year old girl. You lose.......now what do you do?

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leojramirez said:

Pushers tend to be complacent about their level as they can win most matches against players with the same level .

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CT-Topspin said:

you might feel resentment towards somebody that beats you in a way that doesn't fit your model of how you learned tennis. .

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Vanhalen said:

The embarrassing thing is taking years of expensive lessons, practicing every day, having a bag full of the latest high tech rackets and strings strings finely tuned to your specifications, perfectly designed latest shoes and attire.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

Never. If I lose to someone, they are tops on my list to hit again.
Pushers are/were at the top of my list, they helped me to learn not to be a maniac.

Also, people don't give pushers enough credit.
They spend 5 days a week perfecting their craft, over 10-20 years.
Pushers get my respect, big time.

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CT-Topspin said:

Pretty strokes are only one piece of the puzzle. Executing those strokes in some sort of strategic pattern that makes the opponent uncomfortable is what will put Player B ahead of Player A in the long run.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

Yes, that realization comes when you get crushed 6-0 by a guy who got half as hard as you.

Placement trumps power

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CT-Topspin said:

In my experience it's contextual. Your approach shot down the line has to have enough pace that you reduce your opponent's ability to hit a passing winner or lob.

Also, there are some people that just can't handle or redirect power efficiently so slamming shots anywhere in the court can be a successful strategy.

I don't think one trumps the other, nor do I think that's the mental framework you should engage with when trying to become a better player. They both have their place in their own respective situations.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

Yes, that realization comes when you get crushed 6-0 by a guy who hits half as hard as you.

Placement trumps power

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FiReFTW said:

Pace is important, but its only 1 factor out of many.

Theres also placement.
Accuracy.
Consistency.
How does ur shot work when on the run?
Does it break down against heavy pace or spin or both?
How does it handle no pace balls? Slices? High balls?
How efficiently do you use it? Do you have a tactical awareness abd purpose or just blindly hit shots?

Its not hard to hit fast, even a beginner can smack the ball pretty fast even if the ball hits the back fence with no control and even when arming the shot.

There are a ton of things that are important abd affect how good ur shot is against opponents.

Pace and ability to hit fast is important and the faster you can hit the better, BUT not at the expense of all the other things..

You should hit with the pace that allows u good consiatency, placement, control etc etc... and work and train and as you improve you improve all the things and can hit faster and faster while maintaining all the rest.

But if you swing like a madman and lose all your other things or in other words hit faster than your current ability allows ur shot will be more risky the more you go above your ability.

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rogerroger917 said:

Spoken like an inconsistent 3.5. Watch a top level junior, college , pro match. They smash and they dont miss. Can hit spots.

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S&V-not_dead_yet said:

Since very few on this list are at this level, your comment isn't very relevant.

Much more relevant are the legions of 3.0-4.5 rec players: for us, placement often does trump power. At least for me, it does: I lose way more matches because of lack of placement than lack of power.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

Placement trumps power.

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CT-Topspin said:

It's just weird to separate the two. If you place a ball somewhere with the wrong amount of pace, aren't you setting yourself for failure in certain situations? I'm sure you aren't hitting marshmallow shots back to your opponent, I'm presuming you can add pace if the situation dictates.

When you start saying one trumps the other aren't you disregarding that most situations are contextual and require the appropriate combination of both?

My experience in recreational tennis has been consistent with this understanding. I've played guys that have great pace, and guys with great placement, some have both! I don't know that I would prefer one over the other. I think it really depends.

I feel like I am rambling. Does this make sense? Do I sound like the amateur I am?

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S&V-not_dead_yet said:

Since very few on this list are at this level, your comment isn't very relevant.

Much more relevant are the legions of 3.0-4.5 rec players: for us, placement often does trump power. At least for me, it does: I lose way more matches because of lack of placement than lack of power.

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S&V-not_dead_yet said:

You make complete sense and I agree with the nuance.

However, if I had to choose, I'd choose placement. My choice is based on the observation of my own losses and rarely are they due to lack of power, not because I have a lot of power but because I make more mistakes due to bad placement [ie hitting it out or into the net].

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CT-Topspin said:

I guess my question is one of development then. I'm relatively young (25) have a year and half under my belt and have been improving quickly but have always been searching for the optimal way to train (keeping in mind a full time job) with ambitions to be successful through the USTA ranks.

Should power be a focus as the form is developing? Can this be something that can added after achieving consistency or is it more difficult? What combination of practicing these things gives the highest ceiling?

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TimeToPlaySets said:

Placement trumps power.

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user92626 said:

Placement is easy. Power is not.

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One time or another many of us can paint the lines, the corners, anywhere in the court and win games just like Federer does. But none of recreational players come close to generating the power like pros do. Let a lone top pros.

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TimeToPlaySets said:

We can all agree that most players casually learn on their own and develop bad habits that need to be unlearned. Most often these habits are never broken and stay for life. (It takes months of drilling to change habits) On the other end of the spectrum, a kid at an academy is taught not to think, but to perform the strokes. He is a tabula rasa, a trained monkey. No bad habits, since he learns the right strokes from day one. Supervised. But, what is the motivation for this kid? Anecdotally, my motivation to get better at tennis was playing with friends and wanting to get better. The 2nd kid risks simply never actually enjoying the game, since it's presented as a purely technical exercise, not a fun game with friends.


Also, who has the harder adult journey ahead of him?

A) A pusher with 3.0 strokes who learns to win matches by playing smart tennis (hit away from opponent, just keep the ball in play, no poor risk taking, drop shot -> lob, never DFs, etc) He intuitively understands how to win tennis matches, but needs to develop offense to be a complete player.

B) Guy who learns to hit hard, lots of spin, but never develops the pusher mindset. Beats himself with many UE's. This player can hit the ball, but needs to learn how to hit the ball in play to win matches (against weaker players)

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S&V-not_dead_yet said:

If placement was easy, why do so few rec players have it?



Pros have both power and placement; that's difficult.

Hitting with power alone without regard to accuracy is easier than placement, IMO: all I have to do is hit hard without regard to whether the ball goes in.

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FiReFTW said:

I agree with @S&V-not_dead_yet

I have no clue what @user92626 is on about... power is far easier than placement, give a complete beginner a tennis racquet and throw him the ball infront of him and tell him to smack it as HARD as he possibly can, he might need a few swings to really hit the ball well in the center and the ball will probably fly to the back fence or maybe even over it, but assuming the person is fit and strong, he can hit with more power than a lot of decent level tennis players do.

The reason the beginner with hit harder than most decent players is because he will smack it with all he has without any control, but a decent player will hit at his "speed limit" where he has good enough control, placement, accuracy, consistency etc...

Its about hitting as fast as you can while having good enough placement and control, the more you put into it the more your control and placement goes down.

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