PDJ
G.O.A.T.
And lose she did. Objective achieved....kinda..
Maestroesque
Professional
Seriously good for them, the fact she has people siding with her is utterly ridiculous...
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
You've changed your collusion theory to one where the coach is the sole author.
Which comments have I changed?
Quote them.
YourMajesty
New User
yes, and that's what the WTA wants: chaos. They are now claiming that coaching should be legal. They have an agenda: demean male players, and make a complete circus of tennis. No thanks. This is a gentleman's sport, not a football contest. Rules make sense and should be accepted by the players, otherwise they don't have to play the sport.
CYGS
Legend
Serena always gets what she wants. She's the queen and has a daughter. Everyone else is peasant and worthless.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Maestroesque
Professional
apart for the grand slams(?)
MasterZeb
Hall of Fame
Umpires need protection. Poor Carlos has been slated by the American media for doing his job. And the ITF only released a statement yesterday. They should have done so far earlier to suppprt their employee
Tennis_Hands
Banned
That would be incorrect.
The collusion theory treats the factual situation, while the "sole author" theory treats the legal approach of applying the rule, as it would be extremely difficult to prove the factual situation with 100% certainty.
Since we are not in a court of law, we have the freedom to discuss not only the letter of the rule, but also to make observations based on probabilities, using our experience, knowledge etc and exercise honesty.
You should try it.
Maestroesque
Professional
It all comes down to this, and I've mentioned this in my previous posts, it took the moment away from Osaka, after watching Serena's press conference is just put everything into perspective, once the match ended then all of a sudden she decided to accept defeat gracefully? I mean whats the point here exactly? you've got an opponent standing besides you who has just won her first grand slam at the age of 20, who idolised you growing up (and probably still does) and this is how you treat her? And she has the audacity to say that she was saddened after the match, and her "mom" instincts kicked in whereby she had to calm the crowd for her sake. I'm glad that the officials sided with Ramos on this one.
What is wrong with people who keep trying to drag their politics into these tennis threads?
CYGS
Legend
Agreed. Serena should boycott all slams until this is put in place so nobody can be sexist to her and her baby daughter.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Your collusion theory, which treats of the factual situation, has no facts to support it.
This was my point, but now you say that you were just freely making things up because you feel like it.
I'm well aware you make stuff up.
This was my point, but now you say that you were just freely making things up because you feel like it.
I'm well aware you make stuff up.
That would be incorrect.
The collusion theory treats the factual situation, while the "sole author" theory treats the legal approach of applying the rule, as it would be extremely difficult to prove the factual situation with 100% certainty.
Since we are not in a court of law, we have the freedom to discuss not only the letter of the rule, but also to make observations based on probabilities, using our experience, knowledge etc and exercise honesty.
You should try it.
disgruntledamsel
Professional
What was really shady was his noted absence from the trophy ceremony, and I don’t know if he decided it was best not to participate because of the volatile nature of what had transpired, but it sure gave off the appearance that he wasn’t allowed to be there because he had screwed up the match and would be later disciplined. In that moment, that’s what it looked like to me. It was surprising because the supervisors supported his decisions during the match, but then it looked like they suddenly decided to back up that bus and instructed him to sit this one out. It was a disgraceful and disrespectful move to exclude him.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
She could be pointing AND holding a child.
Just in case we forget she's the Patron Saint of Motherhood.
CYGS
Legend
How about "Umpires' lives matter"? I would buy it.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
My collusion theory is safe as far as logical thinking behind it is concerned.
You haven't shown that to be flawed, so I will take that as your way to refuse to further your thinking beyond that legal stance.
I am fine with that, but you have to consider what you call "facts".
Can a coaching occur without the player understanding what he has been instructed to do?
It can, but it will have no effects.
The fact that Serena changed her tactics after the "thumbs up" shows that something happened at that juncture.
It is a matter of a lengthy process to establish whether the two events were connected.
You are basically benefitting from the fact that we are not in a court of law, and use the legality of the issue to bring it to a dead end.
While that might be enough to you, it speaks volumes to the lengths to which you are ready to go to defend even pretty despicable actions.
Federev
Legend
Here here!!
We don't actually know if they excluded him, or whether he opted to exclude himself.
Federev
Legend
She did call him a liar and a theif, said he would never work her matches again, and accused him repeatedly of sexism to the refs all on the court during the match.
( all of this after apparently telling him initially that her coach was merely giving her a “thumbs up” before her coach later explicitly admitted that what he was doing was coaching her.)
If the media is abusing him, it is echoing her voice.
CYGS
Legend
While at the same time say no to bullies. Not mutually exclusive and both are useful.
disgruntledamsel
Professional
@Tennis_Hands - “Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professionalism.”
Yes, for those that felt Ramos could have done more to diffuse the situation: he did; he explained to Serena that it wasn’t her it was her coach, and she said “thank you” but the media isn’t showing that part about him actually helping her to understand so that she would hopefully let it go. Moreover, this talk about the game penalty is a red herring because that was totally warranted in the progression of penalties. People are hung up on the fact that he shouldn’t have called it knowing it was going to cost her a game, but it would have been okay to call it if it wouldn’t have cost her a game. That’s not how it works because the player knows or should know that it’s a 3 strikes sort of situation, and if the penalty is warranted it’s on the player who has already been given progressive discipline to get their act together. That’s like saying if she smashed her racquet for a second time or smashed a ball into a crowd instead of calling him names, he still shouldn’t give her a penalty because it’s going to cost her a game...he can’t do that! He had already helped her out before by explaining the coaching violation, which temporarily calmed her down. At that point, it was Serena and Serena alone that was in control of her own destiny because she knows the progression of penalties. It’s absurd.
Circling back, it’s not the game penalty that’s controversial in my mind, it’s the initial coaching violation. People do have a point - that they were surprised that she didn’t get a soft warning because Serena has never had that called on her before and she doesn’t even accept on court coaching. That’s all true, but again, that’s not how it works - particularly if you are actually commiting the violation. Ramos actually has called that violation on other players, and what people are focusing on is that Serena has never been called on that -that Patrick has never been called on it. When you’re engaging in the behavior, you can be surprised that you get called on it, but you can’t be indignant about it -you don’t get to say “how dare you”. It sounds like people are saying Ramos shouldn’t have called it at all and particularly, called it on Serena. It’s not about the player, it’s about the behavior. I feel that’s gotten lost.
Yes, for those that felt Ramos could have done more to diffuse the situation: he did; he explained to Serena that it wasn’t her it was her coach, and she said “thank you” but the media isn’t showing that part about him actually helping her to understand so that she would hopefully let it go. Moreover, this talk about the game penalty is a red herring because that was totally warranted in the progression of penalties. People are hung up on the fact that he shouldn’t have called it knowing it was going to cost her a game, but it would have been okay to call it if it wouldn’t have cost her a game. That’s not how it works because the player knows or should know that it’s a 3 strikes sort of situation, and if the penalty is warranted it’s on the player who has already been given progressive discipline to get their act together. That’s like saying if she smashed her racquet for a second time or smashed a ball into a crowd instead of calling him names, he still shouldn’t give her a penalty because it’s going to cost her a game...he can’t do that! He had already helped her out before by explaining the coaching violation, which temporarily calmed her down. At that point, it was Serena and Serena alone that was in control of her own destiny because she knows the progression of penalties. It’s absurd.
Circling back, it’s not the game penalty that’s controversial in my mind, it’s the initial coaching violation. People do have a point - that they were surprised that she didn’t get a soft warning because Serena has never had that called on her before and she doesn’t even accept on court coaching. That’s all true, but again, that’s not how it works - particularly if you are actually commiting the violation. Ramos actually has called that violation on other players, and what people are focusing on is that Serena has never been called on that -that Patrick has never been called on it. When you’re engaging in the behavior, you can be surprised that you get called on it, but you can’t be indignant about it -you don’t get to say “how dare you”. It sounds like people are saying Ramos shouldn’t have called it at all and particularly, called it on Serena. It’s not about the player, it’s about the behavior. I feel that’s gotten lost.
Boycott is a terrible idea, because it makes the umpires part of a battle when there job is to stand aside and officiate a battle.
Rules are paramount, but the rules were enforced. She had a tantrum, she got hit with the violation, it cost her a game.
If there should be a punishment for her post match continuation of the tirade, then that has to be taken up by the WTA, but it does not involve the chair umpires and they should not get involved.
Just show up again, and if she has another tantrum, penalize her again.
Incognito
Legend
Serena has no control over what’s going on in her box.
What Ramos should have done is throw Moratouglu out of the stadium for singnalling to Serena. This is the first time Serena was accused of being coached. I don’t think she expected Mouratoglou to give her hand signals during the match.
What Ramos should have done is throw Moratouglu out of the stadium for singnalling to Serena. This is the first time Serena was accused of being coached. I don’t think she expected Mouratoglou to give her hand signals during the match.
Federev
Legend
Reports said that Serena’s initial response to Ramos, before things got out of hand, was telling him that her coach was simply giving her “thumbs up” to encourage her.
She could’ve said she didn’t see what he was doing. And that she didn’t know what he was doing. But apparently she defended what he was doing.
If you saw the video of his hand motions you would know that was the strangest thumbs up ever given in the history of thumbs up culture.
Later -Right after the match-her coach admitted on air that he was coaching her-and implied that it is standard.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
PM admitted to coaching, which means that Serena was prepared to be coached in that match (regardless of whether she or any of her coaches before was caught in such an interaction before).
What Ramos did was to focus on the removing of the problem while trying to reduce the emotions involved.
His words are a reflexion of what the umpire should say when he explains the rules: "Serena I am not punishing you personally, I am punishing an offence committed from your team" (which is how the rule actually is formulated)
He didn't have to acknowledge anything beyond that, which doesn't mean that nothing beyond that happened.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Both his and her admissions, along with the available footage, give enough information whether coaching occurred or not.
Well, maybe except for a couple very "determined" citizens.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Agree.
WTA tour supervisor or someone else would have to do it. That could lead to another train wreck. And a logistics nightmare: Halep, Pliskova, Kerber, Muguruza all creating their own list of umpires they’ll accept.
I'm not sure that I'd ever agree that the "right thing" for an official to do is to make up a new enforcement policy on the fly, especially for a situation that is handled in the rulebook.
Ramos had only two options: either ignore the violation (which is wrong in the abstract, but common practice) or call it.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
OK, I will bite.
What will PM achieve, if Serena doesn't know what he is signalling to her?
yokied
Hall of Fame
I think Serena might be more than a little surprised at the kind of reception she'll get in Melbourne. Melbourne is one of the fairer, more knowledgable crowds in tennis and they know where the problems really lie in this kind of situation. I don't think Craig Tilley will take any **** from her either.
All I can say is I hope Naomi wins more slams than Serena and ends up being a lot more gracious on her way out.
All I can say is I hope Naomi wins more slams than Serena and ends up being a lot more gracious on her way out.
maratha_warrior
Hall of Fame
Only female umpires should chair Serena matches ..
Male Umpires should refuse to chair her matches ..
Anyhow she doesn't trust Male Umpires .
Male Umpires should refuse to chair her matches ..
Anyhow she doesn't trust Male Umpires .
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Serena should go out publicly and apologize to Ramos. How are people not discussing the fact that she was accusing the guy for being a sexist without any sort of ground to go on or proof? That is serious allegations. The guy was following the rules. Disgraceful to put out that card and put someone on the spot publicly in that way. Ramos has a family, close ones etc and I'm sure he doesn't want to be talked about in that manner in the media.
Serena should go down on her knees and apologize to the guy for the amount of damage she has done to him.
Serena should go down on her knees and apologize to the guy for the amount of damage she has done to him.
Incognito
Legend
OK, I will bite.
What will PM achieve, if Serena doesn't know what he is signalling to her?
Well I’m sure PM wanted to achieve something, that’s why he did it. The more important question here is, “did Serena ask for it”? If she did, then she cheated, if she did not, then she did not cheat. That’s why the umpire should have thrown out PM out of the stadia, because he cheated.
What Ramos should have said was: “Serena, you did not cheat but your coach did! So now I will throw him out of the stadium or deduct a game from you because he is your coach”.
Ha, yeah forget the rules of tennis and just make up the punishment as you go.
I'm sure that'd play out even better.
Plus how does he know she didn't cheat, I.e receive the signal. Are you taking her word for it?????
You're also missing the point it was merely a warning at that point. She went nuclear after that and escalated it to point/game.
The umpire shouldn't go outside the rules of the sport to uphold the rules of the sport. Under the rules the player bears responsibility for their coach complying with the non coaching rule. Similarly they bear responsibility for medical staff not injecting them with substances that could place them in violation of drug rules. The rule is coaching is a code violation against the player. That's what the umpire applied and he was correct to apply it. The rule's been applied on dozens of occasions without controversy. The umpire had no reason to believe this one would be any different.
chikoo
Hall of Fame
They cannot boycott mothers. She works hard the money....so hard Honey
Incognito
Legend
What I mean is apply the proper punishment for cheating coaches. Be it guillotine or whatever. Throwing out was merely an example from my part.
Incognito
Legend
Oh I forgot, when it comes to Serena we should never think that she could be innocent.
What I mean is apply the proper punishment for cheating coaches. Be it guillotine or whatever. Throwing out was merely an example from my part.
The thing is I don't think there's a general problem here. This issue hasn't blown up previously, and it took an irrationally volatile reaction for it to blow up on this occasion. I'd leave things as they are and see if any other problems arise rather than trying to solve a problem that may not even exist.
Incognito
Legend
If you’re gonna quote the late great Donna Summer, do it right!
“She works har for the money, so you better treat her right”
joekapa
Legend
Oh G-d forbid she apologizes. She is a mother after all.
Federev
Legend
I was pointing out that you were restating his argument in an inaccurate way to make his argument weaker in a false way.
He did not call Trump mother Thereasa - as you said he did.
He actually said Trump was crazy and stupid.
You should represent people’s words accurately - even when you disagree - lest you essentially lie about them and weaken your own reputation and trust among even your supporters and friends.