Servebotting era?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 757377
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D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios
4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro
16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry
22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov
25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff
35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas
48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer
52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase
56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco
60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray
66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic
72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic
77) Thiem
78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic

Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
Lew said:
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios
4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro
16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry
22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov
25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff
35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas
48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer
52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase
56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco
60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray
66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic
72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic
77) Thiem
78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic

Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
Click to expand...

What the heck is federer doing in servebot list???
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
Lew said:
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios
4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro
16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry
22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov
25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff
35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas
48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer
52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase
56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco
60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray
66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic
72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic
77) Thiem
78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic

Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
Click to expand...

Again The Liar Lew cherry-picking stats to create myths....
....
 
OldschoolKIaus

OldschoolKIaus

Hall of Fame
If you want to determine the specifics of an era (please correct me if I got your intention wrong), looking at grass only doesn't work quite well.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
Red Rick said:
The fact that you use grass stats means that you have no idea what you're doing.
Click to expand...
Why?

I took one surface to avoid stats skewed by players skipping one surface.

The other option was hardcourt.
 
Eren

Eren

Professional
Lew said:
Why?

I took one surface to avoid stats skewed by players skipping one surface.

The other option was hardcourt.
Click to expand...

HC has a lot of different speeds. AO surface plays different from USO etc. Using HC would be quite good to see who is an actual serve bot. On grass the serve is more effective anyway. That's the way I see it though.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
Eren said:
HC has a lot of different speeds. AO surface plays different from USO etc. Using HC would be quite good to see who is an actual serve bot. On grass the serve is more effective anyway. That's the way I see it though.
Click to expand...
Grass was more effective for players of the past too. The comparison is between present and past.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
Hardcourt:

1. Karlovic (no.14)
2. Isner (no.8)
3. Arthurs (no.44)
4. Raonic (no.3)
5. Johansson (no.9)
6. Groth (no.53)
7. Guccione
8. Kyrgios (no.13)
9. Muller (no.21)

By 'servebotting era' I don't mean servebots are dominating, but the serve has become more influent and big servers are getting it easier to make it to the top.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
The actual top-10s served an average of 10.1 aces per match in the last year.

It's quite high, a player with 10.1 aces per match would rank no.32 of all time, above players like Janowicz, Todd Martin, Rosset and Norman.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
 
Eren

Eren

Professional
Lew said:
Grass was more effective for players of the past too. The comparison is between present and past.
Click to expand...

Fair enough,

Fed's serve is a bit mediocre regarding aces on grass lol.

Even Tsonga owns him. But I guess aces isn't the only metric that reflects the quality of ones serve.

Karlovic as a number one was expected as IMO he has the best serve ever.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Lew said:
Why?

I took one surface to avoid stats skewed by players skipping one surface.

The other option was hardcourt.
Click to expand...
Because sample sizes. Grass sample sizes are absolutely tiny for many players and can easily be skewed by a few long matches.

Also, you try to make a link between ace count peak ranking, so it doesn't make sense to look at the ace count of the surface where they play the least
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
Click to expand...
Somebody should really get on that if we can get enough match stats. Would be a fun exercise
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Red Rick said:
Somebody should really get on that if we can get enough match stats. Would be a fun exercise
Click to expand...

Wish the ATP data was public, some of it is garbage with mistakes but it would be great to play around with.

Not really into the maths side of stats (lol) but I'm wondering if randomly sampling 20 or so players from the top 100 each year or something and comparing some serving metrics would be enough. Ideally I'd want the whole top 100 but that would be a mission...
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Wish the ATP data was public, some of it is garbage with mistakes but it would be great to play around with.

Not really into the maths side of stats (lol) but I'm wondering if randomly sampling 20 or so players from the top 100 each year or something and comparing some serving metrics would be enough. Ideally I'd want the whole top 100 but that would be a mission...
Click to expand...
Something like that.

I'd love to have
- surface speed stats
- rally length stat - they do collect data on that but never release that
- winners/ue counts
- unreturnables%
- ace%


Then I think you can just pool data per surface and look at the stats, and there's all kinds of things you can do with the analysis. As for the serve I'd probably look at the stats on clay because that surface has probably been the most consistent over the years.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
@NatF I'm just playing around with the clay serve numbers right now

1995 was the first year any player averaged over 10 aces/match on clay

In the last 52 weeks there were 7 players averaging over 10 aces/match with Isner serving almost 22 aces per match.

Which brings me to also really consider player height in the equation
 
IowaGuy

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
NatF said:
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
Click to expand...

Do you think this has to do with poly?

Or, is poly just correlated with the slowing of the court surfaces, which might give servebots better footing and more time to set up on a weak return of their serve?
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Red Rick said:
Something like that.

I'd love to have
- surface speed stats
- rally length stat - they do collect data on that but never release that
- winners/ue counts
- unreturnables%
- ace%


Then I think you can just pool data per surface and look at the stats, and there's all kinds of things you can do with the analysis. As for the serve I'd probably look at the stats on clay because that surface has probably been the most consistent over the years.
Click to expand...

The closest thing to that is probably tennisabstracts match charting project - you can download it I think. But it's a work in progress and is heavily skewed towards big 4 matches so far.

But yeah they've basically got a treasure trove of stats which just isn't accessible. Hopefully one day one of those hacking scandals will hit the ATP and the flood gates will open...

Red Rick said:
@NatF I'm just playing around with the clay serve numbers right now

1995 was the first year any player averaged over 10 aces/match on clay

In the last 52 weeks there were 7 players averaging over 10 aces/match with Isner serving almost 22 aces per match.

Which brings me to also really consider player height in the equation
Click to expand...

Nuts.

One thing I've noticed looking match stats is that clay seemed to change around 2009, big jump in terms of hold games and more winners/less unforced errors IIRC.

IowaGuy said:
Do you think this has to do with poly?

Or, is poly just correlated with the slowing of the court surfaces, which might give servebots better footing and more time to set up on a weak return of their serve?
Click to expand...

Definitely does. With poly you can serve bigger more consistently.
 
junior74

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
It's very unfair that someone who is good at serving, can take advantage of it.

People above 6'5" should not be allowed to play tennis anyway
 
IowaGuy

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Red Rick said:
Definitely does. With poly you can serve bigger more consistently.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that - you can theoretically get more spin with poly, yet Sampras (85" racket and nat gut) has the highest measured spin on a serve to my knowledge.

Nat gut is more powerful.

Pete (6'1") and Goran served consistently huge with nat gut!
 
IowaGuy

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
George Turner said:
None of the top 10 in that list have won WImbledon.
Click to expand...

goran-ivanisevic-non-incordo-una-racchetta-da-35-anni-.jpg
 
ChaelAZ

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, let's get rid of the serve and put in some big scoop above the court that drops in the ball to play like foosball. Then the real players with talent can show what tennis is about.
 
Cabeza del Demonio

Cabeza del Demonio

Professional
It's really interesting how the game is evolving. In general, big serving has become less effective since the 90's after Ivanisevic, Sampras, and Rafter. In the 2000's up till recently, tennis was getting dominated by the physical, endurance-oriented baseline game of Hewitt, Safin and later Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray. Federer kept the old style aggressive game alive, but he was more of an outlier compared to the other top players.
With this trend in mind, the emergence of so many big servers in the last 3 years is certainly intriguing, but I don't see it as a game changer. The next gen are for the most part not serve-bots, with Zverev being an exception.
 
Cabeza del Demonio

Cabeza del Demonio

Professional
BHud said:
Apparently if you have a good serve, it is now viewed as an abomination. It must be PC to be a pusher these days. Pathetic! Long live the cannon, beotches!
Click to expand...
Federer undeniably has an extremely powerful serve. "Servebot" implies they can only serve and do nothing else, like Isner, Karlovic, or Roddick. Federer has a great forehand and the best net game in the ATP.

So including Federer in the big server list is accurate.
 
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