Can you explain what are the pros and cons if there are any of a high backswing vs low backswing? Thanks.
In contrast, a low backswing can only accommodate low incoming shots. For a high bouncing ball, you have to wait for the ball to drop lower. You can't swing at a high ball without feeling disjoint in the swing.
Then how do pros with low backswings handle high balls? Lleyton Hewitt [not only did he have a very low backswing on his BH, he was on the shorter side as well], Misha Zverev, Bernard Tomic, the Williamses, etc.
You can still hit a high ball with a low backswing: you have to swing upwards. It reduces the range of options you have vs a high backswing but it's certainly possible as the above examples show. Whether one feels "disjoint" is a matter of technique vs an inherent property of a low backswing, IMO.
LH's backhand's backswing is NOT low at all. He generally raises the racket head to his shoulder level. He bends down for lower shots and stands tall for higher shots but his racket head's level is consistently around/above shoulder.
This is generally correct, but I'd put it as follows:A high backswing by default can accommodate high or low incoming shots. Say, for a shoulder high shot, the racket is already there. For a low shot, you just need to drop the racket head to the same level.
In contrast, a low backswing can only accommodate low incoming shots. For a high bouncing ball, you have to wait for the ball to drop lower. You can't swing at a high ball without feeling disjoint in the swing.
Just no. You cannot time it so perfect every time that it's a continuos loop from split hands. You can pause or slow down as long as this pause takes place high, the extreme example being Goffin.
On the FH and the BH?
I think most pros perform this fundamental. It can be difficult for us recreational players if you've never been trained.
Shots in rec games tend to be low. Many times players think a high back swing (or a loop) isn't necessary and never developed it.
I want to keep my elbow naturally raised, maybe the upper arm and the body form a 50 degree angle or so. Not 90 degree.user92626
One thing I would like to add to the above. If you practice using a high elbow high racquet head take back and it becomes a true habit.
Once it is habit, you will find you can set up lower because you will recognize at what height the ball will bounce because you will see the approaching ball clear the net. The more clearance say 3 feet to 5 feet above the net tape the higher the ball will bounce. The lower
clearance above the net tape 6 inches to 2 feet the lower the ball will bounce. It just becomes natural if you are focused on the ball height
above the net.
Aloha
nugget i got from oscar...
i try to track the incoming ball height with my hand... so my overall prep height depends...
i think pros tend to "always" prep high because they are typically receiving alot of ballls with really heavy heavy topspin, that tends to bounce up to shoulder height
...and Ferrer with a very low takeback, and both have played the same competent level.
I want to keep my elbow naturally raised, maybe the upper arm and the body form a 50 degree angle or so. Not 90 degree.
I notice that pro's do more or less one height for their racket take back and their adjustment to the shot's height is done with their knee bending. Not different take back heights. The Nadal clip above is a great example. He was hitting very different bouncing shots but his takebacks for all of them were the same.
Because of my bad habit of having a low take back I notice that it takes me a conscious effort to perform a flatten shot from the baseline. I have the tendency to do topspin all the time!
user92626
I agree with you. Use the knees, but keep the racquet high. I would say in my case the elbows are not quite parallel with the shoulder height, instead the elbows are slightly below the shoulders, but the forums angle up which keeps the racquet shoulder to chin height.
Aloha
To answer original OP question. No. That’s why it’s called racquet drop.
Very good observation for the FH mechanic.
I remember you said your takeback and the swing is like the letter D on its back. Question: how do you ensure your takeback is high and level, as opposed to you lowering your elbow as you take your racket back, which is my tendency? Is there a cue for you to use?
Or, is it that by the virtue of keeping the elbow high/away from the body as you do unit turn, the takeback is automatically kept high?
Not sure I understand your meaning.
Look at Djokovic's FH. He takes back / back swings the racket high before he drops it. That's why he is #1
guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...You are right that pros tend to always prep high, even for low balls. This is great for consistency and shot variation by them, ie you can choose to do topspin or flatten shots.
I want to get rid of doing different forms depending on the shot height.
I don't think it's necessary for us to track the incoming ball height or amount of topspin, etc.
For me I only need to track the general direction of the incoming ball and its speed.
nugget i got from oscar...
i try to track the incoming ball height with my hand... so my overall prep height depends...
i think pros tend to "always" prep high because they are typically receiving alot of ballls with really heavy heavy topspin, that tends to bounce up to shoulder height
guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...
question is whether you want to adjust prior to the execution of the stroke,
or whether you're adjust during the execution of the stroke
advantage of always prepping high... more rhs potential (ie. a bigger loop)
disadvantage of always prepping high.... a bigger loop == a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)
that said, since i'm not practicing 20h a week, and/or hitting 2000 balls a day... i probably don't have enough reps/or talent (or both) to execute with a bigger loop... so i choose less rhs option, which hopefully makes clean contact easier...
this decision is essentially how "pushers" think... choose the simplest "stroke" to get the ball back, yet still win, given limited amount of practice/training. (on the flip side, folks with big looping ATP strokes,... might have the stroke but don't have the 10000 reps a week to support such a big stroke... then poo poo the pusher for "not playing right" - no, they are just correctly playing within themselves).
my $0.02
If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)
lol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.
You know, the instanse it settled in my head I immediately thought of "find the ball", which appeared to be not "touch the ball" but more of "align with the ball and swingpath". The sad thing I could noway come to that conclusion from Oscar's wordingslol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....
which is exactly the nugget that i got from oscar.... (that i mentioned above).
If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.
hehe, English is oscar's 2nd language.You know, the instanse it settled in my head I immediately thought of "find the ball", which appeared to be not "touch the ball" but more of "align with the ball and swingpath". The sad thing I could noway come to that conclusion from Oscar's wordings
I agree with everything you said. It synchs with my experience. Prepping high is harder for my timing (at least for now) but gives me so much power given a seemly gigantic loop. Amazingly I suddenly increased 8 gram of lead tape on the hoop but the racket still feels light to swing!!!guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...
question is whether you want to adjust prior to the execution of the stroke,
or whether you're adjust during the execution of the stroke
advantage of always prepping high... more rhs potential (ie. a bigger loop)
disadvantage of always prepping high.... a bigger loop == a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)
that said, since i'm not practicing 20h a week, and/or hitting 2000 balls a day... i probably don't have enough reps/or talent (or both) to execute with a bigger loop... so i choose less rhs option, which hopefully makes clean contact easier...
this decision is essentially how "pushers" think... choose the simplest "stroke" to get the ball back, yet still win, given limited amount of practice/training. (on the flip side, folks with big looping ATP strokes,... might have the stroke but don't have the 10000 reps a week to support such a big stroke... then poo poo the pusher for "not playing right" - no, they are just correctly playing within themselves).
my $0.02
what worked for me was oscar's tip... "find the ball" prior to firing the trigger, and executing the shot.I agree with everything you said. It synchs with my experience. Prepping high is harder for my timing (at least for now) but gives me so much power given a seemly gigantic loop. Amazingly I suddenly increased 8 gram of lead tape on the hoop but the racket still feels light to swing!!!
The dilemma of choosing an easy, whatever, effective stroke vs a technically sound, potential one is definitely there. I will have to work out this dilemma.
Good input.
I do NOT think pro's (Federer) uses any hand to track the height of the ball.lol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....
which is exactly the nugget that i got from oscar.... (that i mentioned above).
I don't think racquet head is the way to measure backswing ... I think it's the hand.
sure pros are much better than me at "knowing" aka. anticipating... where the ball will be... so don't need to do that tracking thingI do NOT think pro's (Federer) uses any hand to track the height of the ball.
Look at Federer's clip posted by ByeBye. At :08 Fed receiving an incoming shot that's quite low but both of his hands still keep the racket up high for this particular shot that he's gonna make. His adjustment to the shot's height is titling his body (and of course more bending at the legs). This is clear as daylight.
Different pros do vastly different hand/arm configurations. Federer and Nadal look very different in their back swing loading. I have thought about this. It's no good to use the hand to define this.
But one commonality among most/all pros is they keep the RACKET HEAD high at their shoulder level (or higher). No pro's play with the racket head kept around their waist/hip. This can be easily verified.
Different pros do vastly different hand/arm configurations. Federer and Nadal look very different in their back swing loading. I have thought about this. It's no good to use the hand to define this.
But one commonality among most/all pros is they keep the RACKET HEAD high at their shoulder level (or higher). No pro's play with the racket head kept around their waist/hip. This can be easily verified.
ByeBye and all,
Could you look at the Federer clip above and tell me what you see...?
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he drops it down and swing forward.
or
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he swings it back a bit more and then drops it down and swing forward.
?
I'm a little unsure if technically the FH needs this part (the bolded).
please discuss my question about the baseline bh half volley shot, compared to the preceeding full bh shot... same type of discussion IMOByeBye and all,
Could you look at the Federer clip above and tell me what you see...?
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he drops it down and swing forward.
or
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he swings it back a bit more and then drops it down and swing forward.
?
I'm a little unsure if technically the FH needs this part (the bolded).
please discuss my question about the baseline bh half volley shot, compared to the preceeding full bh shot... same type of discussion IMO
to me "naturally would have a smaller loop" is the same as tracking the ball height...I see what you mean about different loop sizes that Fed does for his first 2 bh shots. I'm not confused about this at all. If a ball lands too close to him, naturally he would have to do a smaller loop to catch up.
But did you notice that his takebacks for both shots are extremely similar? head-high racket head back swings?
Pros are really disciplined with their back swings, no?
What you call "slot"? Does max racquet lag on FH happen at slot or after slot?imo:
- swing does not start from top
- swing starts from back of slot when that ground up k-chain thing happens
- close to the ball in your example has to be k-chain slot firing
- 99.9% of power comes from k-chain slot firing ... gravity drop/loop a timing mechanism, not a power mechanism (other than obviously better timing leads to better power/rhs). Yes ... gravity drop rhs boost heavily debated here.
- I don't see much out right pause in strokes from up high ... but slow pre-slot loop has timing margins (adjustments) built in
Is that what you meant?
Think and toy a bit with finding the ball from early, moderately high, more or less similar takeback. Watch Wawrinka (very delicate aligning and bursty firing) and Khachanov (very pronounced high and back start) for inspiration.sure pros are much better than me at "knowing" aka. anticipating... where the ball will be... so don't need to do that tracking thing
but look at the bh half volley shot on the baseline at :03... he certainly takes a much smaller loop there, than the prior bh shot...
to me, that adjustment in the size of the loop is the "find the ball"/aka. tracking thing that i'm talking about...
maybe a better way to describe "find the ball" or "track the height of the ball"... is "adjust the start of the loop of your stroke" based on the incoming ball... too wordy to me though.