Anyone remembers this crazy tennis dad story?

dominikk1985 said:

Yeah seems to be a solid Player, age 17 and ranked 250 in the world in the ITF junior ranking. Still doesn't seem to justify all the effort.

Seems to have good technique but mediocre RHS and foot speed from what I have seen. Can't teach athleticism but an average athlete with perfect technique and hard work on physical stuff probably could make D1 if he starts early enough.

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dominikk1985 said:

Can't teach athleticism but .

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Topspin Shot said:

Is this the family you're referring to? The kid is now a high school junior ranked 16th nationally on TRN. So he won't be a top ATP pro but he's still really good and will be a top D1 player with the potential for a pro career. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324682204578513532678872880

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5263 said:

I think you guys have to be more careful about saying what a young person is capable of 3-5yrs down the road. Sure, odds are your expectation he won't be great will work out....but not so much because what you see in them today, but because the odds are so massive against anyone becoming great. You never know when a player will break thru on a physical and/or mental level....especially if they are already a pretty good player.

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5263 said:

I think you guys have to be more careful about saying what a young person is capable of 3-5yrs down the road. Sure, odds are your expectation he won't be great will work out....but not so much because what you see in them today, but because the odds are so massive against anyone becoming great. You never know when a player will break thru on a physical and/or mental level....especially if they are already a pretty good player.

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sureshs said:

I also think that a coach, like any teacher, faces a dilemma in such cases. Should he say the truth and tell the student he will not succeed, knowing that there is no way to predict the future accurately, or should he keep encouraging him a lot as long as the student doesn't visibly suffer because of that? Or should he just do his job and give just reasonable encouragement, and let the parents make the decision? I think the latter is the only ethical thing to do.

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5263 said:

It's not a coach's job to predict the future.... If hired, it's his job to coach in order to maximize the players potential and see where it takes them. Imo that is what is so great about tennis in this respect, in that tennis taught correctly has benefits that far exceed what happens on court.

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sureshs said:

I also think that a coach, like any teacher, faces a dilemma in such cases. Should he say the truth and tell the student he will not succeed, knowing that there is no way to predict the future accurately, or should he keep encouraging him a lot as long as the student doesn't visibly suffer because of that? Or should he just do his job and give just reasonable encouragement, and let the parents make the decision? I think the latter is the only ethical thing to do.

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Toby14 said:

At 15 Boris Becker almost did not make it to the team at the local club, as the coach did not think he had the talent. 2 years later he won Wimbledon.

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dominikk1985 said:

The story is probably not true, Becker won the orange bowl in doubles in 1982 and made the junior national team in 81. He always was a top prospect..

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Toby14 said:

You could be right, I will ask my source.

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loosegroove said:

Crap, if I had this kid's parents, maybe I could have been a 4.5

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Dan R said:

HBO did a series on parents in sports, and it was really good and frankly hard to watch. Todd Marinovich was on the panel and his story is perhaps the most painful, and you can see the scars he bears. As a parent it's very thin line. No one gets to the top without being pushed at some point, but the path to greatness is littered with kids whose lives have been ruined. For every Tiger Woods or Serena and Venus Williams there's countless kids like the ones in this documentary. I've seen it happen in my family.

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heninfan99 said:

Thanks. Will watch. Last I read Taylor Fritz still doesn't speak to his Dad. I read a long article on their history and the Dad was very manipulative in getting him to play tennis.

These types of parents have been effective in tennis but it's not worth it imo.

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sureshs said:

There are many here who know the family. They are well-off so it doesn't matter, and Taylor also turned out to be tall enough to play at the pro level.

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heninfan99 said:

It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a relationship with his Dad any longer? Okay. Successful coach for sure.

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sureshs said:

No, I don't know about that. People can float many rumors. What I meant was that even if it is true that his Dad forced him along, he still turned out tall enough for male tennis and has plenty of money and contacts to fall back on.

Coco's family is also well-off and in fact I believe Taylor's father coached her too as a kid.

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sureshs said:

No, I don't know about that. People can float many rumors. What I meant was that even if it is true that his Dad forced him along, he still turned out tall enough for male tennis and has plenty of money and contacts to fall back on.

Coco's family is also well-off and in fact I believe Taylor's father coached her too as a kid.

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heninfan99 said:

It was in an article. I can prolly find it later.

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rogerroger917 said:

So Fritz father coached 2 top level pros when they were developing. He is obviously a very good coach. How many coaches in the world have done that?

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sureshs said:

I also think that a coach, like any teacher, faces a dilemma in such cases. Should he say the truth and tell the student he will not succeed, knowing that there is no way to predict the future accurately, or should he keep encouraging him a lot as long as the student doesn't visibly suffer because of that? Or should he just do his job and give just reasonable encouragement, and let the parents make the decision? I think the latter is the only ethical thing to do.

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heninfan99 said:

It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a relationship with his Dad any longer? Okay. Successful coach for sure.

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5263 said:

I know its different for everyone, but I coached all three of my kids. It wasn't always easy, but being a good dad isn't normally that easy Imo. I was fortunate to maintain a great relationship with all 3 the whole time and I do give them a lot of credit for that as well. Tennis gave us a ton of quality time on and off the court. They all started for college teams and continued to call and even come home for training in college. The oldest is standards evaluation jet pilot in the Airforce now and still plays tennis. My daughter is a top manager at a big 3 accounting firm but still loves playing league tennis. They didn't go pro, but then that was never their goal....which was up to them. It can work out fine and the reality is that very few make it on tour anyway. Imo Pro Tour isn't a great measure of a player. Some of the kids they played and even beat are on tour now, like Kevin King and Serena's hitting coach Jenkins.

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5263 said:

Imo Pro Tour isn't a great measure of a player. Some of the kids they played and even beat are on tour now, like Kevin King and Serena's hitting coach Jenkins.

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rogerroger917 said:

What? lol. The ATP is the ultimate measure of a player. You are literally playing to live. Juniors and collegiate tennis is student/athlete. And I seriously doubt the fact that some kids lost matches in juniors they will continue to lose to the same players as they develop. That's absurd.

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rogerroger917 said:

What? lol. The ATP is the ultimate measure of a player. You are literally playing to live. Juniors and collegiate tennis is student/athlete. And I seriously doubt the fact that some kids lost matches in juniors they will continue to lose to the same players as they develop. That's absurd.

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5263 said:

Actually not absurd at all and not only does it tend to go that way, but most folks in tennis tend to mistakenly project that way quite often. Even worse is how the Jrs do it. It even has a name it's so common. No matter how wrong, it is the norm in tennis to think that way even though it isn't what I was trying to say. Maybe that normal way of thinking is something you have noticed and is why you came to the conclusion you did on my comment?

I'm sorry and its just a quick comment where I didn't write a book to make myself more clear....and I guess there was little chance you were not going somehow link that as an excuse for my kids not making it, lol. I only mentioned my kids playing with touring Pros because it is interesting and part of their history they can always cherish. It was not their goal so there was no attempt to do the things that needed to be done to make that a realistic possibility in today's game. Could they have? Odds are clearly against them, so I guess no is the best answer without a doubt.

There is no doubt that the players on the top earned their way in an extremely objective manner and just like you guys said....far more than most other sports. What I'm saying is that while pro tennis is one of the more objective measures of players, especially those who participate at the top, there are also a host of factors that are very misleading when you compare with ability and athletic successes of other sports. Like for instance how a top 20 ATP doesn't seem such a huge deal on the ATP, but top 20 in basketball is the franchise player. Top 100 in football could be one of best in the league in his position. So from that perspective, top players get no where near the credit they have earned.

Then you have the flip side of the lower ranks in tennis that are flooded with good players that also have deep pockets allowing them to chase points and sort of clog the system. They are NOT playing to live. Not only money, but injuries are always more of an issue than people can ever fully realize. Players like Goffin have shown how if they could just get thru the log jam, they were right up there with many of the best of players, even if he had to game the system to break thru. The seeding system is great for top players and fans, but really stacks the deck against breaking through for all but the most talented. Yes, this helps to stratify talent at the top, but also tends to muddle things a bit down lower.

So my point is that while someone hitting a high of 115 in the world ATP is clearly a noteworthy accomplishment I'd be quite proud of...no doubt....it really doesn't tell us much about him. Was he a grinder who was lucky to get there with some lucky wins over injured players or a superstar in the making who didn't have the funds or durability to hit the right events. Knowing and working with some of the players in the 100-700 range really gives some insight into the talent levels that many don't have time to notice, but in those 600 spots there are lots of interesting anomalies that lead me to that comment earlier.

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sureshs said:

Roddick used to lose to Serena as a junior.

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5263 said:

Actually not absurd at all and not only does it tend to go that way, but most folks in tennis tend to mistakenly project that way quite often. Even worse is how the Jrs do it. It even has a name it's so common. No matter how wrong, it is the norm in tennis to think that way even though it isn't what I was trying to say. Maybe that normal way of thinking is something you have noticed and is why you came to the conclusion you did on my comment?

I'm sorry and its just a quick comment where I didn't write a book to make myself more clear....and I guess there was little chance you were not going somehow link that as an excuse for my kids not making it, lol. I only mentioned my kids playing with touring Pros because it is interesting and part of their history they can always cherish. It was not their goal so there was no attempt to do the things that needed to be done to make that a realistic possibility in today's game. Could they have? Odds are clearly against them, so I guess no is the best answer without a doubt.

There is no doubt that the players on the top earned their way in an extremely objective manner and just like you guys said....far more than most other sports. What I'm saying is that while pro tennis is one of the more objective measures of players, especially those who participate at the top, there are also a host of factors that are very misleading when you compare with ability and athletic successes of other sports. Like for instance how a top 20 ATP doesn't seem such a huge deal on the ATP, but top 20 in basketball is the franchise player. Top 100 in football could be one of best in the league in his position. So from that perspective, top players get no where near the credit they have earned.

Then you have the flip side of the lower ranks in tennis that are flooded with good players that also have deep pockets allowing them to chase points and sort of clog the system. They are NOT playing to live. Not only money, but injuries are always more of an issue than people can ever fully realize. Players like Goffin have shown how if they could just get thru the log jam, they were right up there with many of the best of players, even if he had to game the system to break thru. The seeding system is great for top players and fans, but really stacks the deck against breaking through for all but the most talented. Yes, this helps to stratify talent at the top, but also tends to muddle things a bit down lower.

So my point is that while someone hitting a high of 115 in the world ATP is clearly a noteworthy accomplishment I'd be quite proud of...no doubt....it really doesn't tell us much about him. Was he a grinder who was lucky to get there with some lucky wins over injured players or a superstar in the making who didn't have the funds or durability to hit the right events. Knowing and working with some of the players in the 100-700 range really gives some insight into the talent levels that many don't have time to notice, but in those 600 spots there are lots of interesting anomalies that lead me to that comment earlier.

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5263 said:

My daughter is a top manager at a big 3 accounting firm but still loves playing league tennis.

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heninfan99 said:

I think we basically agree. The system of turning pro and trying to get some traction for the poorly funded sucks but the competing & rankings are very objective in terms of results on court --whether one can afford to pursue it is an issue for sure.

At the same time if there was big money for lower ranked players it would mean tennis is popular and athletes like Zion Williamson might have played and would have crushed everyone. lol

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r2473 said:

An accountant AND a tennis player? She must be a boring loser

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nytennisaddict said:

you should read "Chasing Points" about Gregory Howe,... ranking in 1000's and his journey to get points...
mentions some of things you're saying...
lucky draws
playing hurt seeds
searching for the most remote tourneys
etc....

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vex said:

1) If I was going to go ALL-IN with my kid on a sport I'd choose a more lucrative sport than tennis where you basically don't make money unless you are a top 10-15 worldwide in your generation level talent. Not good odds no matter how much effort you put in. Thats before you put in the risk of just randomly getting bounced by a back/acl injury.

2) Considering that, going ALL-IN, basically requires wrecking your kids childhood. More so in tennis than any other sport. Kids getting homeschooled, nightly CPac, minimal free time, little if any time for friends/romance/other sports. Thats not what I'd call a healthy childhood.

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comeback said:

I trained my son Nick starting around age 10-11 prior to that he only played baseball..Since i played a lot at the 4.0-4.5 level i was able to drill him several times a week until he got on the HS team at 14..,He was a stocky kid with a good serve motion and liked coming in since Sampras (my favorite player ) was big at the time ..One key thing i did was to get Nick consistent matches against older guys 4.0-4.5..​

​

At 16 he started playing Level 2 USTA and would lose more often than win but he kept at it..and slowly improved but would lose to consistent baseliners, while he had a one hander backhand..He had a good HS career in a mediocre league and started applying to colleges..He really wanted to go to Tufts in Boston and applied but his Sat scores were 1250 and they turned him down immediately..I knew my son had potential and his Sampras game would need development so i called the Tufts coach..he told me his team was stacked with upperclassmen and would need USTA tournament results to justify his involvement..I explained this to Nick and he was going thru a growth spurt after his Senior year season so he killed himself that summer and just blossomed..His serve got bigger and his attack game matured..He won 3 USTA Level2 tournaments and the Tufts coach got him in as an alternate..He lasted one fall season on the team then quit and joined the ROTC Navy program then switched to Marines..He would get up 4am every morning and travel on his bike (no car) in the freezing weather to Harvard Univ ROTC to make up a semester he lost..He also would spend weekends in ROTC..​

​

He graduated in 2008 Magna Cum Laude and the only student in his school to be commissioned a Marine Corps officer​

He completed 2 tours in the Middle East, came back and spent 2 years at the White house met his future wife (also a Marine Captain) doing Special duty and getting to know Pres Obama and his wife so well they were invited to his wedding..He also got his Masters degree at Georgetown on his own time..​

​

2013 he applied for a newly formed Marine Corps Special Forces..It was a grueling 9 month course of combined Navy Seal and Green Beret training..83 men started (including seasoned combat vets and former D1 athletes) but only 45 finished..When i asked Nick how he made it through he said it was the water torture..He said there is not a worse feeling in the world than dying from drowning which is why many guys failed..I also learned later that the Marines let some NFL football players and UFC fighters try the course as an experiment..None of them lasted..While they did ok in the physical part..It was the simulated torture, being dropped in the ocean miles offshore, starvation for days etc.. that did them in...​

Another tour in Middle East 2017 then he put in his resignation papers moved to Philadelphia and was accepted to Wharton Business School..But the higher ups said they needed him for one last important mission so he is now currently in Afghanistan and promised me he will resign next month when he returns..Wharton told him he would have to reapply lol.. He does credit tennis for his mental toughness..​

Here is his college video from 2004

I don't see him much but we got to play some fun points in 2015..He hadn't picked up a racket in many years but with some practice he could be good..Not bad for a kid with 1250 college boards who couldn't get into his college of choice or play on their team..

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comeback said:

I trained my son Nick starting around age 10-11 prior to that he only played baseball..Since i played a lot at the 4.0-4.5 level i was able to drill him several times a week until he got on the HS team at 14..,He was a stocky kid with a good serve motion and liked coming in since Sampras (my favorite player ) was big at the time ..One key thing i did was to get Nick consistent matches against older guys 4.0-4.5..​

​

At 16 he started playing Level 2 USTA and would lose more often than win but he kept at it..and slowly improved but would lose to consistent baseliners, while he had a one hander backhand..He had a good HS career in a mediocre league and started applying to colleges..He really wanted to go to Tufts in Boston and applied but his Sat scores were 1250 and they turned him down immediately..I knew my son had potential and his Sampras game would need development so i called the Tufts coach..he told me his team was stacked with upperclassmen and would need USTA tournament results to justify his involvement..I explained this to Nick and he was going thru a growth spurt after his Senior year season so he killed himself that summer and just blossomed..His serve got bigger and his attack game matured..He won 3 USTA Level2 tournaments and the Tufts coach got him in as an alternate..He lasted one fall season on the team then quit and joined the ROTC Navy program then switched to Marines..He would get up 4am every morning and travel on his bike (no car) in the freezing weather to Harvard Univ ROTC to make up a semester he lost..He also would spend weekends in ROTC..​

​

He graduated in 2008 Magna Cum Laude and the only student in his school to be commissioned a Marine Corps officer​

He completed 2 tours in the Middle East, came back and spent 2 years at the White house met his future wife (also a Marine Captain) doing Special duty and getting to know Pres Obama and his wife so well they were invited to his wedding..He also got his Masters degree at Georgetown on his own time..​

​

2013 he applied for a newly formed Marine Corps Special Forces..It was a grueling 9 month course of combined Navy Seal and Green Beret training..83 men started (including seasoned combat vets and former D1 athletes) but only 45 finished..When i asked Nick how he made it through he said it was the water torture..He said there is not a worse feeling in the world than dying from drowning which is why many guys failed..I also learned later that the Marines let some NFL football players and UFC fighters try the course as an experiment..None of them lasted..While they did ok in the physical part..It was the simulated torture, being dropped in the ocean miles offshore, starvation for days etc.. that did them in...​

Another tour in Middle East 2017 then he put in his resignation papers moved to Philadelphia and was accepted to Wharton Business School..But the higher ups said they needed him for one last important mission so he is now currently in Afghanistan and promised me he will resign next month when he returns..Wharton told him he would have to reapply lol.. He does credit tennis for his mental toughness..​

Here is his college video from 2004

I don't see him much but we got to play some fun points in 2015..He hadn't picked up a racket in many years but with some practice he could be good..Not bad for a kid with 1250 college boards who couldn't get into his college of choice or play on their team..

Click to expand...

5263 said:

Imo Pro Tour isn't a great measure of a player. Some of the kids they played and even beat are on tour now, like Kevin King and Serena's hitting coach Jenkins.

Click to expand...

comeback said:

I trained my son Nick starting around age 10-11 prior to that he only played baseball..Since i played a lot at the 4.0-4.5 level i was able to drill him several times a week until he got on the HS team at 14..,He was a stocky kid with a good serve motion and liked coming in since Sampras (my favorite player ) was big at the time ..One key thing i did was to get Nick consistent matches against older guys 4.0-4.5..​

​

At 16 he started playing Level 2 USTA and would lose more often than win but he kept at it..and slowly improved but would lose to consistent baseliners, while he had a one hander backhand..He had a good HS career in a mediocre league and started applying to colleges..He really wanted to go to Tufts in Boston and applied but his Sat scores were 1250 and they turned him down immediately..I knew my son had potential and his Sampras game would need development so i called the Tufts coach..he told me his team was stacked with upperclassmen and would need USTA tournament results to justify his involvement..I explained this to Nick and he was going thru a growth spurt after his Senior year season so he killed himself that summer and just blossomed..His serve got bigger and his attack game matured..He won 3 USTA Level2 tournaments and the Tufts coach got him in as an alternate..He lasted one fall season on the team then quit and joined the ROTC Navy program then switched to Marines..He would get up 4am every morning and travel on his bike (no car) in the freezing weather to Harvard Univ ROTC to make up a semester he lost..He also would spend weekends in ROTC..​

​

He graduated in 2008 Magna Cum Laude and the only student in his school to be commissioned a Marine Corps officer​

He completed 2 tours in the Middle East, came back and spent 2 years at the White house met his future wife (also a Marine Captain) doing Special duty and getting to know Pres Obama and his wife so well they were invited to his wedding..He also got his Masters degree at Georgetown on his own time..​

​

2013 he applied for a newly formed Marine Corps Special Forces..It was a grueling 9 month course of combined Navy Seal and Green Beret training..83 men started (including seasoned combat vets and former D1 athletes) but only 45 finished..When i asked Nick how he made it through he said it was the water torture..He said there is not a worse feeling in the world than dying from drowning which is why many guys failed..I also learned later that the Marines let some NFL football players and UFC fighters try the course as an experiment..None of them lasted..While they did ok in the physical part..It was the simulated torture, being dropped in the ocean miles offshore, starvation for days etc.. that did them in...​

Another tour in Middle East 2017 then he put in his resignation papers moved to Philadelphia and was accepted to Wharton Business School..But the higher ups said they needed him for one last important mission so he is now currently in Afghanistan and promised me he will resign next month when he returns..Wharton told him he would have to reapply lol.. He does credit tennis for his mental toughness..​

Here is his college video from 2004

I don't see him much but we got to play some fun points in 2015..He hadn't picked up a racket in many years but with some practice he could be good..Not bad for a kid with 1250 college boards who couldn't get into his college of choice or play on their team..

Click to expand...

comeback said:

I trained my son Nick starting around age 10-11 prior to that he only played baseball..Since i played a lot at the 4.0-4.5 level i was able to drill him several times a week until he got on the HS team at 14..,He was a stocky kid with a good serve motion and liked coming in since Sampras (my favorite player ) was big at the time ..One key thing i did was to get Nick consistent matches against older guys 4.0-4.5..​

​

At 16 he started playing Level 2 USTA and would lose more often than win but he kept at it..and slowly improved but would lose to consistent baseliners, while he had a one hander backhand..He had a good HS career in a mediocre league and started applying to colleges..He really wanted to go to Tufts in Boston and applied but his Sat scores were 1250 and they turned him down immediately..I knew my son had potential and his Sampras game would need development so i called the Tufts coach..he told me his team was stacked with upperclassmen and would need USTA tournament results to justify his involvement..I explained this to Nick and he was going thru a growth spurt after his Senior year season so he killed himself that summer and just blossomed..His serve got bigger and his attack game matured..He won 3 USTA Level2 tournaments and the Tufts coach got him in as an alternate..He lasted one fall season on the team then quit and joined the ROTC Navy program then switched to Marines..He would get up 4am every morning and travel on his bike (no car) in the freezing weather to Harvard Univ ROTC to make up a semester he lost..He also would spend weekends in ROTC..​

​

He graduated in 2008 Magna Cum Laude and the only student in his school to be commissioned a Marine Corps officer​

He completed 2 tours in the Middle East, came back and spent 2 years at the White house met his future wife (also a Marine Captain) doing Special duty and getting to know Pres Obama and his wife so well they were invited to his wedding..He also got his Masters degree at Georgetown on his own time..​

​

2013 he applied for a newly formed Marine Corps Special Forces..It was a grueling 9 month course of combined Navy Seal and Green Beret training..83 men started (including seasoned combat vets and former D1 athletes) but only 45 finished..When i asked Nick how he made it through he said it was the water torture..He said there is not a worse feeling in the world than dying from drowning which is why many guys failed..I also learned later that the Marines let some NFL football players and UFC fighters try the course as an experiment..None of them lasted..While they did ok in the physical part..It was the simulated torture, being dropped in the ocean miles offshore, starvation for days etc.. that did them in...​

Another tour in Middle East 2017 then he put in his resignation papers moved to Philadelphia and was accepted to Wharton Business School..But the higher ups said they needed him for one last important mission so he is now currently in Afghanistan and promised me he will resign next month when he returns..Wharton told him he would have to reapply lol.. He does credit tennis for his mental toughness..​

Here is his college video from 2004

I don't see him much but we got to play some fun points in 2015..He hadn't picked up a racket in many years but with some practice he could be good..Not bad for a kid with 1250 college boards who couldn't get into his college of choice or play on their team..

Click to expand...