Saul Goode
Semi-Pro
Old guys have just learned when NOT to run.
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Old guys have just learned when NOT to run.
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Ok so I guess on this site you must be at least a 6.0 player or higher to have a big serve and power forehand? Or are there a lot of 6.0 level players that don’t have big serves also? Maybe only 7.0 players have big serves I’m not sure anymore.
The other thing that keeps me from serving bigger these days is that there is minimal payoff for serving bigger UNLESS you are serving really big (i.e., big enough to make serve-and-volleying every serve a good idea). So if you are are not serving big enough to get the payoff, then why waste energy on not-quite-big-enough serves? Better to hit safe neutral serves and save the legs for the running you are going to need to do anyway!And better players will eventually groove on all but the VERY biggest serves. [emoji56] Variety and accuracy pay more dividends as we age.
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The other thing that keeps me from serving bigger these days is that there is minimal payoff for serving bigger UNLESS you are serving really big (i.e., big enough to make serve-and-volleying every serve a good idea). So if you are are not serving big enough to get the payoff, then why waste energy on not-quite-big-enough serves? Better to hit safe neutral serves and save the legs for the running you are going to need to do anyway!
Yes! In the case that my opponent backs up 6-8 feet behind the baseline to return after he sees the heater, then that's my cue to serve-and-volley behind the slow kicker.Yep. And unpredictability big serves are made all the more effective by this approach. Heck, even kinda big serves. I love throwing a bit of heat and then rolling a slow, high bounding kicker on game or break point. Very often even very strong players are way ahead of it and an error is my reward. [emoji123][emoji462][emoji123]
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Yes! In the case that my opponent backs up 6-8 feet behind the baseline to return after he sees the heater, then that's my cue to serve-and-volley behind the slow kicker.
I have started using the straight-out toss (ossing arm roughly perpendicular to baseline ) and it seems the best for my body type.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...into-the-service-motion.633773/#post-12975422
They did that back then because the rules prohibited the server from jumping on the serve.Trav and BHB...as you both have gotten older and don't hit big serves all the time..Do you know if your foot landing has changed.? Does your left foot still (hop) into the court first ? I know a lot of seniors and if you look at Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall and other legends they brought the right foot around first and still have great serves...Here's Pancho Gonzalez arguably the greatest server of all time bringing the right foot around first..I find it's also less taxing on the body during a long match
One foot had to be on the ground at impact according to the rules at that time. Before that, both feet had to be on the ground.Trav and BHB...as you both have gotten older and don't hit big serves all the time..Do you know if your foot landing has changed.? Does your left foot still (hop) into the court first ? I know a lot of seniors and if you look at Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall and other legends they brought the right foot around first and still have great serves...Here's Pancho Gonzalez arguably the greatest server of all time bringing the right foot around first..I find it's also less taxing on the body during a long match
When I used to serve big, my serve was unconventional in that I jumped much higher (more than a foot in the air) and much further forward into the court than anyone else. Much of my power came from an explosive forward jump (landing about 6 feet in court). My jump serve (and reliance on serve-and-volley) was a consequence of a self-taught game and finding a way to compete and get wins against other juniors who had been competing since age 10, when I started competing much later at age 15. If I had stayed at the baseline and tried to play the same style as the other kids, I would have had zero chance to win because my beginner groundstrokes were inferior. But I found a way to attack that worked with the tools that I had at the time. My serve started out slower and safer when I was 15, but evolved into a big weapon (with more exaggerated explosive jump) during my high school years, and I even notched a few memorable wins against the top-ranked kids. The higher jump allowed my serve to have a better downward angle into the court than the serves of my peers, which increased the window to get it in, but more importantly also produced an extremely high bounce (with moderate topspin) that people weren't used to playing against. The serve carried me to third place in the high school state tourney in doubles after starting as a JV player 2 years prior, despite still not having a forehand better than 3.5 level, still using a beginner-style eastern forehand grip for my forehand volleys, and still hitting all my backhand volleys 2-handed.Trav and BHB...as you both have gotten older and don't hit big serves all the time..Do you know if your foot landing has changed.? Does your left foot still (hop) into the court first ? I know a lot of seniors and if you look at Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall and other legends they brought the right foot around first and still have great serves...Here's Pancho Gonzalez arguably the greatest server of all time bringing the right foot around first..I find it's also less taxing on the body during a long match
unfortunately none of you mad, suresh understood the question and didn't answer itTrav and BHB...as you both have gotten older and don't hit big serves all the time..Do you know if your foot landing has changed.? Does your left foot still (hop) into the court first ? I know a lot of seniors and if you look at Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall and other legends they brought the right foot around first and still have great serves...Here's Pancho Gonzalez arguably the greatest server of all time bringing the right foot around first..I find it's also less taxing on the body during a long match
When I used to serve big, my serve was unconventional in that I jumped much higher (more than a foot in the air) and much further forward into the court than anyone else. Much of my power came from an explosive forward jump (landing about 6 feet in court). My jump serve (and reliance on serve-and-volley) was a consequence of a self-taught game and finding a way to compete and get wins against other juniors who had been competing since age 10, when I started competing much later at age 15. If I had stayed at the baseline and tried to play the same style as the other kids, I would have had zero chance to win because my beginner groundstrokes were inferior. But I found a way to attack that worked with the tools that I had at the time. My serve started out slower and safer when I was 15, but evolved into a big weapon (with more exaggerated explosive jump) during my high school years, and I even notched a few memorable wins against the top-ranked kids. The higher jump allowed my serve to have a better downward angle into the court than the serves of my peers, which increased the window to get it in, but more importantly also produced an extremely high bounce (with moderate topspin) that people weren't used to playing against. The serve carried me to third place in the high school state tourney in doubles after starting as a JV player 2 years prior, despite still not having a forehand better than 3.5 level, still using a beginner-style eastern forehand grip for my forehand volleys, and still hitting all my backhand volleys 2-handed.
Today, I hardly get any air on my serve even when I try to go bigger, so the unique downward angle isn't there anymore, and I don't land very far into the court (unless I specically focus on the jump during a practice session). My old signature jump serve just isn't an old-man-style serve. I used to be able to dunk a volley ball on a regulation basketball rim. Now sadly I can't even touch the rim anymore. Guys like Karlovic and Isner have serves that age well, because height and leverage don't fade. My serve was not the type of serve that ages well, because the power and angle into the court was all based on having an explosive jump with the legs.
why not just look back into your old posted videos and see where your foot landsWe have some interesting parallels in our (youthful) serves. I too had “hops” as a kid ( could dunk a basketball at 5’11”) and used a big jump up and out into the court. I could serve big and hit targets. But I was self taught and learned ground strokes by hitting against a cinderblock wall onto grass so I learned to get low and use a short backswing. I had a grass-court game but my only instruction (before some local D1 players took me under wing) was the Bobby Riggs tennis book and therefore I played mostly like a defensive baseline. I used a continental grip on all strokes and hit a very unusual but highly effective inside out forehand that tailed away from the righty backhand (think Graf). Once I had some coaching at net i began developing into an all courter. The rest is as they say 41 years of history!
@comeback: I’m not sure. Will do some video soon! [emoji462][emoji56][emoji462]
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why not just look back into your old posted videos and see where your foot lands
I'm not sure if I am young or old.
J
Why has Maxi grown his hair in the style of a youthful LeeD?
Will he start surfing next?
what is a fluff serve ?And this thread...always delivers the most awesome fodder and bravdo.
My favorite is now knowing many 5.0 players have fluff serves.
And this thread...always delivers the most awesome fodder and bravdo.
My favorite is now knowing many 5.0 players have fluff serves.
what is a fluff serve ?
what is a fluff serve ?
As opposed to your "fluffy" serve, no?It is like your serve
Not fluff. That won’t fly at 5.0. But decent can/does IF you have other weapons and/or supreme fitness/movement [emoji462][emoji56][emoji462]
Got me. I just read through pages of this thread to see several comments about 5.0 not having a "big serve", so I assume people mean it is fluffy. I am curious how people define a big serve too.
This is my experience as well. *Most* 5.0s have strong serves but *many* have merely decent serves for which they compensate with other skills.
An anecdote for perspective. Ken Rosewall's typical first serve came in at around 75mph. (And he only hit slice BHs... but I digress.) The joke was that his serve "couldn't crack an egg." Take Kenny at 35 years of age using a wood racquet with a 75mph first serve and no topspin BH, and today he wins every 5.5 tournament in the country, likely without losing a game. Yes, a strong first serve is helpful at the rec level - and the higher you go, the more often you see them - but even at 5.0 it's not at all mandatory if you can compensate with other skills.
The two most underrated shots in all of rec tennis are (1) any serve over 70mph that lands within two feet of the service line, and (2) any ball of any speed or spin that lands within three feet of the baseline. At the rec level it's difficult to consistently attack either of these shots. They're innocuous killers.
So it all comes down to depth. There is a coach here who doesn't agree with that and prefers shorter balls with more spin.
He taught sureshs well. Sureshs shots are exceptionally short.He is probably right.
J
If you hit shorter and more spin it allows more angle. Usually if you watch Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc... the best players. They are hitting deep to push the opponent back deep to a corner, then they hit same corner less deep but more sharp to get them wide. Then they go for the change of direction for offence. So most likely less depth more spin is good. The guys who always hit deep and with less spin actually imo work harder for the point. And they win less.So it all comes down to depth. There is a coach here who doesn't agree with that and prefers shorter balls with more spin.
If you hit shorter and more spin it allows more angle. Usually if you watch Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc... the best players. They are hitting deep to push the opponent back deep to a corner, then they hit same corner less deep but more sharp to get them wide. Then they go for the change of direction for offence. So most likely less depth more spin is good. The guys who always hit deep and with less spin actually imo work harder for the point. And they win less.
Do you mean Rosewall wins like this now??This is my experience as well. *Most* 5.0s have strong serves but *many* have merely decent serves for which they compensate with other skills.
An anecdote for perspective. Ken Rosewall's typical first serve came in at around 75mph. (And he only hit slice BHs... but I digress.) The joke was that his serve "couldn't crack an egg." Take Kenny at 35 years of age using a wood racquet with a 75mph first serve and no topspin BH, and today he wins every 5.5 tournament in the country, likely without losing a game. Yes, a strong first serve is helpful at the rec level - and the higher you go, the more often you see them - but even at 5.0 it's not at all mandatory if you can compensate with other skills.
The two most underrated shots in all of rec tennis are (1) any serve over 70mph that lands within two feet of the service line, and (2) any ball of any speed or spin that lands within three feet of the baseline. At the rec level it's difficult to consistently attack either of these shots. They're innocuous killers.
I guess for 4.0 players just hit medium pace and deep. Win everything. Lol.Fair and accurate at the pro level. [emoji41] But those guys can consistently hit the shots you describe with power and intent under competitive pressure. Recreational players? [emoji56]
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So it all comes down to depth. There is a coach here who doesn't agree with that and prefers shorter balls with more spin.
Do you mean Rosewall wins like this now??
I guess for 4.0 players just hit medium pace and deep. Win everything. Lol.
But I don't think a 4.0 can consistently hit deep either. So I guess nothing will help.
While I respect your opinion, I’m not sure I’d bet on this.Yes. A world champion - even one from 45 years ago and using a wood racquet - is going to maul every 5.5 (today) in sight.
AgreeWhile I respect your opinion, I’m not sure I’d bet on this.
If you hit shorter and more spin it allows more angle. Usually if you watch Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc... the best players. They are hitting deep to push the opponent back deep to a corner, then they hit same corner less deep but more sharp to get them wide. Then they go for the change of direction for offence. So most likely less depth more spin is good. The guys who always hit deep and with less spin actually imo work harder for the point. And they win less.
Whatever keeps your opponent from successfully attacking you is a good shot...
was thinking about this today (slow wide slice serve) in practice... as i was aced 2x deuce out wide...This is my experience as well. *Most* 5.0s have strong serves but *many* have merely decent serves for which they compensate with other skills.
An anecdote for perspective. Ken Rosewall's typical first serve came in at around 75mph. (And he only hit slice BHs... but I digress.) The joke was that his serve "couldn't crack an egg." Take Kenny at 35 years of age using a wood racquet with a 75mph first serve and no topspin BH, and today he wins every 5.5 tournament in the country, likely without losing a game. Yes, a strong first serve is helpful at the rec level - and the higher you go, the more often you see them - but even at 5.0 it's not at all mandatory if you can compensate with other skills.
The two most underrated shots in all of rec tennis are (1) any serve over 70mph that lands within two feet of the service line, and (2) any ball of any speed or spin that lands within three feet of the baseline. At the rec level it's difficult to consistently attack either of these shots. They're innocuous killers.
i would definitely take that bet. 84 is still 84...Yes. A world champion - even one from 45 years ago and using a wood racquet - is going to maul every 5.5 (today) in sight.
i would definitely take that bet. 84 is still 84...
i would definitely take that bet. 84 is still 84...
presuming he could turn back time, and make it happen, i'll still take the bet...I think he meant when Rosewall was playing, not now.
They are really good that's why. They are too practiced compared to you. Nav plays tennis it seems as a job lol.I hit those angling-away shots on both flanks at the Smart Targets (TM) with massive topspin against lower players, but when I face someone like travlerajm or navigator, they are already at the net and put those away, plus their own shots are so deep that I don't find time to do my stuff.
Agree
Rosewall: Height: 5′ 7"was born November 2, 1934 (age 84 years),
i would definitely take that bet. 84 is still 84...