Navratilova had a better career than Court

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Actually my friend worked a tourney that both MN and CE played in CA in the mid 80s. He said MN was terrific very friendly and engaging. CE not friendly in the least according to my buddy.
I've a friend who knows both really well (escorted Navratilova to the Evert/Lloyd wedding). He likes them both very much and sees them regularly. He said Evert is more-guarded and Navratilova much cheerier and open. BUT, if he needed a real friend at a difficult time, Evert is far more reliable and compassionate.
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
This isn't about Kobe, this is about Court, and she's a truly ugly person on the inside, a bigot and an embarrassment to tennis for her comments. Court's tennis career is an afterthought and will be pretty much remembered the same as Cosby's Comedy and Oj's Football achievements, namely an unimportant footnote on their "legacy."

navratilova-court.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x640.jpg
Wow...now thats sidestepping a very valid point that was made...
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
pc1, you know I respect you as one of the most reasonable posters, but you're dead wrong here. Like I said Salk and Fleming are not living public figures that deserve our continued scrutiny, and height is simply a factual measure of distance that allows no room for qualitative or ethical considerations.

Again I understand we can disagree on this. Sports are a minor diversion in the grand scheme of things and if people choose to overlook an athlete's personal failings while evaluating her career that's fine by me. But to me the very term "greatest" implies something greater than a bunch of trophies. When I say X or Y is the greatest exponent of tennis or whatever that's somebody I want to represent the sport to the general public, and Court's strident homophobia is not something I'd like to see associated with tennis which happens to be one of the more egalitarian sports when it comes to gender. For that reason alone I say Navratilova or even BJK deserves the title more.



No, my position is that it's disingenuous to pretend a dead white male who has had no opportunity to rethink and improve his views and behavior since 1826 deserves to be judged by the current code of ethics that increasingly and rightly accepts the LGBTQ community as they are. Deep down you know this, despite your mystifying attempts to make light of Court's views.

Please...for way too long BJK has received way too much credit because she is part of "the gang".
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
You didnt ask me but they are Americans, they stay in the public and tennis spotlight, they are all fairly personable, and they arent homophobic bigoted hateable jerks like Mrs. Court. They are also more recent, apart from King to some degree, and she is famous for obvious reasons.
Yet your hypocritical hate speech is not a splinter in your own eye?
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
The Emerson comparison of that other poster is completely over the top. The situation with Court is simply that the AO which was coincidently the slam she won by far the most was avoided by many top players as we all know. Nevertheless she also has some AO wins with strong/decent fields and won a lot at other slams as well. Emerson in the other hand won all his slams when the strongest players played on a parallel tour and as soon as both tours got merged it became obvious that he could not compete with them. That would more be like if in 2008 the big three had decided to start their own tour together with some other top ten players while during their absence Murray would clean the slams.
As Wittgenstein would say: "sounds like a family resemblance."
 

BTURNER

Legend
I loathe most everything Pastor Court of the Victorylife Centre stands for. But Margaret Court tennis player had absolutely nothing to say about homosexuality, or conversion therapy, sodomy while she was on the tour. She was a fairly innocuous, hard working and dedicated athlete, a bit on the bland side as a matter of fact. But she was 'reborn' into a Pentecostal cleric, and the shy retiring tall woman with the huge serve, disappeared forever.

I treat them as different people. I find myself literally using the passed tense with Margaret Court. Its pretty fortunate actually. This would be much more complicated for me if the tennis player and the sanctimonious bigoted cleric shared the same body at the same time.


Edit. Going to amend this because it turns this Pastor into a two dimensional figure, a caricature, rather than a typical cleric and pastor. Pastors provide valued solace in times of stress and grief and they provide a method to resolve guilt and remorse. They provide hope to many under circumstances where hope is hard to see. They go to hospitals, prisons, to gravesides. They will pray with drug addicts, with child abusers, with philanderers, and then, later that same week proside over weddings and christenings. No reason to think that Pastor Court does not work very hard and valiantly at all parts of her job and provide comfort. She is not just a bigot and homophobe.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
I loathe most everything Pastor Court of the Victorylife Centre stands for. But Margaret Court tennis player had absolutely nothing to say about homosexuality, or conversion therapy, sodomy while she was on the tour. She was a fairly innocuous, hard working and dedicated athlete, a bit on the bland side as a matter of fact. But she was 'reborn' into a Pentecostal cleric, and the shy retiring tall woman with the huge serve, disappeared forever.

I treat them as different people. I find myself literally using the passed tense with Margaret Court. Its pretty fortunate actually. This would be much more complicated for me if the tennis player and the sanctimonious bigoted cleric shared the same body at the same time.
I think that Court herself would agree that she is now a different person.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I loathe most everything Pastor Court of the Victorylife Centre stands for. But Margaret Court tennis player had absolutely nothing to say about homosexuality, or conversion therapy, sodomy while she was on the tour. She was a fairly innocuous, hard working and dedicated athlete, a bit on the bland side as a matter of fact. But she was 'reborn' into a Pentecostal cleric, and the shy retiring tall woman with the huge serve, disappeared forever.

I treat them as different people. I find myself literally using the passed tense with Margaret Court. Its pretty fortunate actually. This would be much more complicated for me if the tennis player and the sanctimonious bigoted cleric shared the same body at the same time.


Edit. Going to amend this because it turns this Pastor into a two dimensional figure, a caricature, rather than a typical cleric and pastor. Pastors provide valued solace in times of stress and grief and they provide a method to resolve guilt and remorse. They provide hope to many under circumstances where hope is hard to see. They go to hospitals, prisons, to gravesides. They will pray with drug addicts, with child abusers, with philanderers, and then, later that same week proside over weddings and christenings. No reason to think that Pastor Court does not work very hard and valiantly at all parts of her job and provide comfort. She is not just a bigot and homophobe.
"She is not just a bigot and homophobe."

I agree she's not just a bigot and homophobe. However, it is part of her and views she wishes to air. And views that are given headlines precisely because of her tennis legacy. These views don't diminish her tennis accomplishments, but they do impact on her legacy what ever our own personal view.
When she dies, 99.9% of every obituary will mention her religious views.
 
"She is not just a bigot and homophobe."

I agree she's not just a bigot and homophobe. However, it is part of her and views she wishes to air. And views that are given headlines precisely because of her tennis legacy. These views don't diminish her tennis accomplishments, but they do impact on her legacy what ever our own personal view.
When she dies, 99.9% of every obituary will mention her religious views.
Robert Fischer had more disgusting views and nevertheless he is mostly remembered as the greatest chess player of all time by many. His anti-semitic views are brought up sometimes, but mostly when he is remembered it is for his great chess ability.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Robert Fischer had more disgusting views and nevertheless he is mostly remembered as the greatest chess player of all time by many. His anti-semitic views are brought up sometimes, but mostly when he is remembered it is for his great chess ability.
I don't really know enough about him aside from being a chess player. Also, tennis reaches a global audience. I honestly couldn't name another chess player aside from two cousins who played for England juniors!
 
I don't really know enough about him aside from being a chess player. Also, tennis reaches a global audience. I honestly couldn't name another chess player aside from two cousins who played for England juniors!
Fair enough if you do not know him. It does not change the fact however, neither does it with other examples like Bob Hewitt or Bill Tilden. Hewitt is still in the HOF and while his crimes are brought up from time to time he is nowhere near put in negative light as often as Court. Tilden is generally held in very high esteem. I did not eben know for a long time that he was a child molester.
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
I don't really know enough about him aside from being a chess player. Also, tennis reaches a global audience. I honestly couldn't name another chess player aside from two cousins who played for England juniors!
So saying good or bad things only matters more if you reach a large audience?
Fair enough if you do not know him. It does not change the fact however, neither does it with other examples like Bob Hewitt or Bill Tilden. Hewitt is still in the HOF and while his crimes are brought up from time to time he is nowhere near put in negative light as often as Court. Tilden is generally held in very high esteem. I did not eben know for a long time that he was a child molester.
It is often that whatever is seen as closest to the truth, will be the most difficult to digest - resulting in that truth to be questioned as a way to cope with or deny it. The truth is far too convicting and people do not like changing, even if it meant improving themselves.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Fair enough if you do not know him. It does not change the fact however, neither does it with other examples like Bob Hewitt or Bill Tilden. Hewitt is still in the HOF and while his crimes are brought up from time to time he is nowhere near put in negative light as often as Court. Tilden is generally held in very high esteem. I did not eben know for a long time that he was a child molester.
I know all about Tilden, but l have a great interest in the history of tennis- and it's often mentioned. Hewitt also - although I admit l thought he'd been removed from the IHOF? In fact I'm almost certain he was. I'll check.

The difference between Tilden and Court is that the latter lives in an instant media age. And, she knows this. She has timed some of her statements to coincide with the Australian Open.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
[QUOTE="mxmx, post: 13123745, member: 122600"]So saying good or bad things only matters more if you reach a large audience?

It is often that whatever is seen as closest to the truth, will be the most difficult to digest - resulting in that truth to be questioned as a way to cope with or deny it. The truth is far too convicting and people do not like changing, even if it meant improving themselves.[/QUOTE]
The larger the audience, the bigger the reaction. If I held similar views to Margaret Court it might alienate my own circle but it's not going to make headlines. Margaret Court is not an idiot and knows her views will reach a global audience. She stands by her views. Fortunately, others call her on it.
Regardless, it's now part of her legacy.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Fair enough if you do not know him. It does not change the fact however, neither does it with other examples like Bob Hewitt or Bill Tilden. Hewitt is still in the HOF and while his crimes are brought up from time to time he is nowhere near put in negative light as often as Court. Tilden is generally held in very high esteem. I did not eben know for a long time that he was a child molester.
As I thought:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...expels-bob-hewitt-convicted-of-rape/82705022/
 

Pheasant

Legend
Martina's peak was incredible. I don't even know how to rate her. She had 5 consecutive years of 78+ wins AND a .940+ winning pct. These records of hers are absurd:

1982 90-3
1983 86-1
1984 78-2
1985 84-5
1986 89-3
Total 427-14, .968

She also won 6 consecutive slam titles. And had a 14 match winning streak against Evert.

Some of her other insane Open Era records are:
18 straight slam semis
4 of the top 6 seasons in history for winning pct(#1, #3, #5, #6)
74 match winning streak. As a matter of fact, she owns 5 of the top 10 longest winning streaks in the Open Era
8 year end titles
18 wins for #1 ranked player

Her 79-8 record vs the top 10 is also absurd, as is her 20 match winning streak vs the top 10

Even now, she is ranked 15th all-time in career prize money at 21,626,089. This amount barely trails #14 Graf at 21,895,277.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Fair enough if you do not know him. It does not change the fact however, neither does it with other examples like Bob Hewitt or Bill Tilden. Hewitt is still in the HOF and while his crimes are brought up from time to time he is nowhere near put in negative light as often as Court. Tilden is generally held in very high esteem. I did not eben know for a long time that he was a child molester.
You raise interesting points.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Please...for way too long BJK has received way too much credit because she is part of "the gang".
BJK IS THE GANG!
I must admit she's irritated me of late: her knee jerk reaction to defend Serena Williams behaviour at the USO, although she gave a more balanced view a few days later.
That said, she is worthy of most honours meted out.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I agree with you and she deserves that mention. My point was narrower. Its just a reminder to myself as much as anyone else, that a pastor - any pastor is much more than an accumulation of what he or she says at a podium. What they do in a hospital, at a graveside, in someone's home, at a soup kitchen, or a youth shelter or at a wedding, is important in measuring how they do 'the job' We can't forget what else she may bring to her flock besides the bigotry, meanness of spirit, and colossal damage she does on this issue. Gays should be careful not to turn her into a two dimensional stereotype in anger, because she turns gays into a two dimensional stereotype in religious zeal. We don't know her as a flesh and blood person.
For me it's simple. You're a decent, accepting human being. Or you're not.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
@thrust thrust it appears our posts have been deleted. I suspect for the subject you raised. But to answer you, l truly believe it's a personal choice, and certainly not for me to judge. Who knows the circumstances that leads to such a decision? And some are horrific.
And, again, l don't judge. You choose to.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
@thrust thrust it appears our posts have been deleted. I suspect for the subject you raised. But to answer you, l truly believe it's a personal choice, and certainly not for me to judge. Who knows the circumstances that leads to such a decision? And some are horrific.
And, again, l don't judge. You choose to.
Again you were deleted. It's not your decision. I'm sorry you think it is.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
I like Nav, but "kind and nice" aren't words that have often been used to describe her. Which is fine by the way. Those aren't necessarily positive qualities for a fierce competitor at the very top of the game.

She's anything other than nice on or off court. She spent years trying to trash Graf for the "crime" of Graf being superior to her in tennis, and she did the same to the Williams sisters until she was (arguably) made to tone down (barely) what was coming off as obsessive hate, particularly against Serena.
 

paolo2143

Professional
She's anything other than nice on or off court. She spent years trying to trash Graf for the "crime" of Graf being superior to her in tennis, and she did the same to the Williams sisters until she was (arguably) made to tone down (barely) what was coming off as obsessive hate, particularly against Serena.

There was also the fact that there was quite a lot of suspicion around Martina's quite noticeable changes in physical appearance between 1982 and by mid 1983.

She also suddenly seemed to be much stronger, fiitter and faster about the court.

If you go on and look as some youtube footage of her matches it is pretty noticeable.

The thing is in 1980 and 81 she was replaced by Chris & Tracy as World No1 and the matches between her and Evert were very equal.

Even in 1982 where Martina won h2h 3-1 most of the matches were very tough battles.

Suddenly from 1983 to 1985 Martina beats Chris 15 matches to 2 and with some real batterings in there.

I know some people will say it was down to training and conditioning but as i said there were a lot of rumours and suspicions at the time in the tennis world.

As i said i am not sure if there is any truth to it, but i do agree she didn't come across as particularly likeable once she had retired and seemed quite bitter about Steffi in particular.
 
She's anything other than nice on or off court. She spent years trying to trash Graf for the "crime" of Graf being superior to her in tennis, and she did the same to the Williams sisters until she was (arguably) made to tone down (barely) what was coming off as obsessive hate, particularly against Serena.

You again? :rolleyes: We all get that you hate Navratilova but that doesn't have anything to do with the topic under discussion.
 
Whether Navaratilova was doping or not (and at that time, there was a vocal, running belief that she had been doping, as it was a syndrome among many Eastern European athletes at that time), the bottom line of her ill behavior/personality is all on her. Navratilova's verbal attacks on anyone who surpassed her in the one thing she had in life / reason to be are well known, and documented, and notice how er targets say next to nothing about her. They live their lives and careers, and are not obsessing on anything about Navratilova. Some have a more balanced view of life--apparently, Navratilova does not and is gripped in hate and jealousy.

You seem a tad obsessed with Martina. Don’t you have anything else to say?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
 

BTURNER

Legend
Guys, the title of this thread is ' Navratilova had a better career than Court' The OP reads "It was because she got all her titles in a professional competition, while the Court played among amateurs (and at the beginning of the open era).
And the Court got the Grand Slam calendar? Is Don Budge considered to be a better player than Pete Sampras or Bjorn Borg?
Court numbers are inflated due to the amateur era and do not deserve to be ranked higher than Navratilova in the ATG ranking."

We have allowed ourselves to stray far afield and it has not been especially cordial in this thread . So lets get back to comparing these two women's doubles careers.


Navratilova's doubles record in Majors "She …. was ranked No. 1 in doubles 237 weeks and 191 consecutive. Navratilova’s doubles partnership with Pam Shriver garnered 20 titles; her 31 total women’s doubles titles in 37 finals yet another milestone in a dizzying list of all-time records."https://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/inductees/martina-navratilova
Martina' Doubles
Australian Open: W 1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989
French Open: W 1975, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988
Wimbledon: W 1976, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986
US Open: W 1977, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990

Martina's Mixed Doubles
Australian Open: W 2003
French Open: W 1974, 1985
Wimbledon: W 1985, 1993, 1995, 2003
US Open: W 1985, 1987, 2006


"Court is one of only five players in tennis history, joining Navratilova, Serena Williams, Emerson, and Frank Sedgman, to win a career Grand Slam in two categories, and she stands alone as the only player in history to win three calendar-year Grand Slams (one in singles, two in mixed doubles). Court won singles, doubles, and mixed doubles championships at all four majors (a career boxed-set), and only Navratilova and Doris Hart can claim the same, but Court won all 12 majors at least twice. No one in history has come remotely close to that record.

An astonishing 40 of her major championships came in doubles, the coup de grace coming in 1963 when she teamed with fellow Aussie Ken Fletcher to win the mixed doubles Grand Slam. In 1965 she became the only player in history to win a mixed doubles Grand Slam twice, winning the French and Wimbledon with Fletcher, the Australian with John Newcombe and the U.S. Nationals with Fred Stolle. Court’s 40 doubles and mixed doubles titles were enormous accomplishments, winning 11 at the Australian, eight at the French, seven at Wimbledon, and 12 the U.S. Nationals/US Open (The Australian doubles titles in 1965 and 1969 were shared due to inclement weather postponing the final)."https://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/inductees/margaret-smith-court


Courts Doubles
Australian Championships/Open: W 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973
French Championships/Open: W 1964, 1965, 1966, 1973
Wimbledon: W 1964, 1969
U.S. Nationals/US Open: W 1963, 1968, 1970, 1973, 1975

Court's Mixed Doubles
Australian Championships/Open: W 1963, 1964, 1965*, 1969*
French Championships/Open: W 1963, 1964, 1965, 1969
Wimbledon: W 1963, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1975
U.S. Nationals/US Open: W 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1972
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
She's anything other than nice on or off court. She spent years trying to trash Graf for the "crime" of Graf being superior to her in tennis, and she did the same to the Williams sisters until she was (arguably) made to tone down (barely) what was coming off as obsessive hate, particularly against Serena.
"Obsessive hate".....
Irony is not your friend.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
"Obsessive hate".....
Irony is not your friend.

You would know, since there's not a month that goes by with you posting something undeniably hate-filled about Serena, or liking posts where others are attacking her. Yes, your mirror shattered long ago. Find help.
 
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PDJ

G.O.A.T.
An
You would know, since there's not a month that goes by with you posting something undeniably hate-filled about Serena, or liking posts where others are attacking her. Yes, your mirror shattered long ago. Find help.
And yet you write "hate" in the majority of your posts.
This I do know.....
 

lobsterrush

New User
I think it is beyond dispute Court had a better career. 24 slams >>>>>>>>>>>> 18 slams, it isnt even close in the most important stat. Court even beats Navratilova in total slams though, 62 > 59, and this is the thing usually brought up by Martina supporters, her best stat and Court beats her even in that stat. Total tournament titles in singles is 199 to 167 for Court. I am not sure if there is a single stat Martina beats Court in except a way better Wimbledon record.

Now who is the better player or should rank higher all time is debateable. Many would say Martina for that, but it isnt because she has better stats, she simply doesnt.

By the way even if everyone had played the Australian Open then Margaret still probably has more slams than Martina. Analyzing it, it seems pretty clear Court still winds up with 20-22 slams and Martina only 18 or 19 (winning 1 of 78 or 79 maybe) even in that scenario. So even in that hypothetical what if scenario Martina doesnt likely have the better career. And if Court had not retired 3 times she probably wins close to 30 slams even with everyone playing every Australian Open anyway.
 
More hypothetical 'what ifs' to consider:
What if Margaret hadn't taken time off to start a family?
What if Margaret had played as a left-hander (she's naturally left-handed)?
What if Martina hadn't defected to the U.S?
What if Martina had played more Grand Slams?
 

lobsterrush

New User
More hypothetical 'what ifs' to consider:
What if Margaret hadn't taken time off to start a family?
What if Margaret had played as a left-hander (she's naturally left-handed)?
What if Martina hadn't defected to the U.S?
What if Martina had played more Grand Slams?

I think Martina was much better off defecting to the U.S. She defected for a reason, she obviously wasnt happy or didnt feel she could fulfill her maximum potential staying where she was. To take such a brave and gigantic personal and political risk, she had to see it as something that was needed.

The others are all good ones though.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
I think it is beyond dispute Court had a better career. 24 slams >>>>>>>>>>>> 18 slams, it isnt even close in the most important stat. Court even beats Navratilova in total slams though, 62 > 59, and this is the thing usually brought up by Martina supporters, her best stat and Court beats her even in that stat. Total tournament titles in singles is 199 to 167 for Court. I am not sure if there is a single stat Martina beats Court in except a way better Wimbledon record.

...and Court winning the Grand Slam will forever place her above Navratilova, just as Graf's status soars above Navratilova's.
 

lobsterrush

New User
...and Court winning the Grand Slam will forever place her above Navratilova, just as Graf's status soars above Navratilova's.

Yes Graf and Court have 24 and 22 slams vs Martina's 18, and both did the Grand Slam which Martina couldnt do. It isnt even really close. Martina knows it too, it is why she dumps all over Graf whenever she commentated on her, and is doing the same to Serena too. Jealous is as jealous does.
 

lobsterrush

New User
This is a thread about tennis. Why don’t you & Thundervolley start your own Martina Hating thread?

I dont hate Martina. It is just an observation (which everyone with a brain would have noticed) that Martina has a visible hate-on for Graf, especialy when she commentated on her. When even people as insanely stupid as Mitch Albom and Mike Lupica notice it and mention noticing it in their writings, then it couldnt be more obvious. And today even for Serena, although that is a bit more restrained (probably for fears or racism accusations, even if in reality it would be born out of jealousy and not racism as I dont believe for a moment Martina is racist or bigoted). There must be a reason for that. Court is the other one she often hates on and downplays, although in their case there could be other things at hand like Court's open homophobia and disdain for lesbians, but not for those other two. Of course it could be sheer and amazing coincidence she seems to hate on only those players who are generally perceived to be better than her in history. It could be, but not likely. She also hated on Seles bigtime before she got stabbed, then became her biggest fan when Seles got stabbed and was no longer a potential threat to her future legacy, again amazing coincidences, LOL!
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
Thunderfart, and you profess to be the epitome of politeness and class, LOL!

If you are denial about Martina's visible anti Graf and anti Serena and anti Court commentary, you are either delusional, uninformed, or flat out stupid. I was only pointing out the facts, if you have a problem with that cry me a river. And I like Martina far more than both Court and Graf (although less than I like Serena), but objectively speaking all 3 women with many more singles slams than Martina, and 2 of the 3 with great doubles careers to boot even for those who give some value to doubles, rank above her. Now you could debate that, Martina is certainly both great and good enough to be open to debate to the contrary; but Martina herself obviously feels that way, as they wouldnt be the only people she visibly hates on from the commentary booth and in her public statements if this werent true. That was TV's only point, and it is a perfectly valid one, and one I had not even thought of much myself until seeing his/her pointing it out and came to realize that tie does make perfect sense, and you rather than attempt to refute that whine and cry, which means you dont even have a rebuttal of any sort for it and know it is true as well.
Not disagreeing as such...but do you have any quotes or statements Martina made in this manner towards others?
 
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