Nick777
Semi-Pro
There are many pros that use Very low power pro stock So I dont think the problem is the Phantom line that is low power, they just dont have the money to sponsorship big names
New Phantom Pro (18x20) (320)
- Thread starter 2nd Serve Ace
- Start date
There are many pros that use Very low power pro stock So I dont think the problem is the Phantom line that is low power, they just dont have the money to sponsorship big names
I’d agree with that, there’s probably no point just giving the rackets to players without a serious marketing campaign to go with it, and that probably costs a lot of money, especially when competing with the big three. So they pick a couple of players they can afford to sponsor and live with the sales they can get.
Nick777
Semi-Pro
Yes thats right, we are not talking about top 3,jocko renew his contract with head and will be payed 7.5 million dollars per year, thats a Serius money
time_fly
Hall of Fame
The pros have clean enough mechanics to use power racquets and still hit their targets.
TheOtherBecker
Rookie
So they can afford exactly 2 mid/high range pros, but not 3?
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I meant top 3 brands, not a number of players sorry.
No idea why they sponsor only 2, maybe one for the US market and another for Europe? They’re the 2 biggest markets I’m guessing.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Most pros are not playing tweeners and granny sticks. They are playing weighted up pro stocks painted to look like retail frames.
Which is why its hard to fake a line like the phantom with its thin beam.
The RF97 is probably the closest specs to a men's tour frame and its anything but a granny frame.
Prince markets by word of mouth. As does ProKennex, Dunlop and Technifibre for the most part. A few sponsorships here and there but mostly from users.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
What's the verdict with the new PP100 18x20? I haven't been following this thread lately. Does it truly play like a 55RA racket and has everyone's frames played true to specs or do I need to ask TW to hand pick and verify my PP100 18x20 is really 55RA, HL and 12oz?
TheOtherBecker
Rookie
For sure. I should have said, “endorses”
I guess that’s right. But Fed is literally the only Pro whose retail model resembles what he plays with, right? Rafa endorses the ultimate granny stick, the pure Aero, but actually plays with a... Soft Drive? or something like that? Sorry, I have a Babolat blind spot.
Sorry to sidetrack, let’s talk more about the Pro 100 18 x 20!
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Isn’t the TW spec an average of their stock?
So if they list it at 55RA there’s going to be a spread around that, correct?
Would be interesting to see the range of values and the median value, could be more meaningful, or not.
Kurt0707
Rookie
My 18x20 came in at 336 grams strung (no OG) so that's 11.9 Oz. HL is around 8-9, and for sure more than 16x18 version even without measuring. Not measure, but RA "feels" higher than 55 but lower 58 racquets I have, its surely less plush than 16x18 version.
I think its the feel that's important and its for sure a very comfortable and maneuverable racket... needs some power/pop though with some lead & new strings for me (currently soft-poly at 48). Couldn't really get that net performance everyone is talking about, especially with slower balls/weaker players.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
Interesting. Mine is 344g strung with Wilson Pro OG and O-ring dampener, and is about 11pt HL. I added 2g of lead at 12 to help balance it out and bump the power. Definitely some QC issues at Prince right now.
Kurt0707
Rookie
Actually, weights are very similar, with OG & Dampener & 1 gr lead; mine comes to 343 grams. HL was without OG, so you could more correct. I don't think there are big issues here in my opinion...
I just could not get the precision I was expecting from the net game, but I think I need to more weight or its too HL for me...
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Interesting I was a net monster today with the 100. I wish I could have recorded myself today as I made numerous great volleys off FH and BH wing. Don't think I've felt that in control of the forecourt ever.
Yesterday with my 93P I couldn't hit a BH volley to save my life. Today with the 100 everything at net was like I was toying with my opponents.
I'm in a big quandary right now deciding which racket to use in my upcoming Master's 50+ tournament. I totally hit bigger, more precise FH's and serves with the 93P but I'm far better at the net with the 100. Probably better RoS with the 100. So I'm really not sure which way to go.
Hypergxtraspin
New User
I would say 100, only because serves and forehands are easier strokes to feel comfortable with, especially with maybe tweaking with strings. Strings can make a serve more powerful or spinny. Anyway sounds like you will make the right choice!
Kurt0707
Rookie
I would have thought that 100 is more forgiving and would player easier than 93p, but 93p would also be quite a precise weapon on the net too. It could be the strings as pointed out...
It was strange for me, when I switched to my singles racket (TT100P) which is more powerful, I was doing much better on the net too.... I wonder if it is also the string choice and currently I am using full soft-poly @ 48lbs and thinking about a hybrid for some more power and my dilemma is whether to go with gut/poly @47/45 or poly/gut hybrid? For power should have the gut/poly but don't want to lose the control of poly/gut especially and I am afraid to it will be too powerful (my 16x19 are strung gut/poly @47/45)... appreciate any suggestions.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I find gut has excellent feel and control for net shots. I'd just string it closer to 55 in the mains. I'm string gut 17g at 54 in my Phantom 100 18x20 and I'll probably do 55 next time out as its still pretty powerful.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Likely the 100 since I'm not going to win any matches going toe to toe trading groundstrokes in the Masters. My only hope is to return the ball low and get into the net and shorten everything up. And with the serves coming faster than my usual crew, a more forgiving RoS racket is probably in my best interest. Just need to get creative holding serve.
Hypergxtraspin
New User
Just got 3 phantom pro 100 18x20s. Amazing racket. So soft when you hit the ball. I don't find it underpowered as I cranked winners off the ground with great control. Flat serve speed was definitely up. With leather grip and overgrip, this balance feels similar to the RF but way softer with more control. Also faster and easier to swing without sacrificing plow through. Touch volleys and drop shots were nice. Great sticks!
Holdfast44ID
Semi-Pro
How close were your sticks in weight and balance? Much variance?
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Hypergxtraspin
New User
Got two in, waiting to get the third. Weighed them stock and they were 322g, took the prince rubber band off and the plastic on the handle. Wieghed stock at 320g each, one flickered a bit between 320 and 319. Then took off the grips and put prince calfskin leather grips on both. Wieghed after and both are about 326g. Both together is 653g so there is a 1 ish gram variance. The balance seems exactly the same. Once I string and put over grips, I will wiegh again. I will also test the swingwieghts with the swingwieght machine at the shop to get exact specs!
These are really great sticks, been dialing in with the demo and I am loving it.
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Kurt0707
Rookie
Yes I switched from full poly @48 to full gut (syngut) at 50lbs and it still plays with good control, doesnt feel too plush, still good feel and connected and has got some power now,. My volleys and serves were very low powered with full poly, and my stroke is generally quite flat and powerful. May switch crosses with poly in the future but more happy with it now, but feel nat gut/poly would really work well as well.I have nat gut / poly in my 16x19 and plays really well.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think gut/poly is a really good hybrid for the Phantoms. I'm using Klip Legend 17 with Ghostwire 19 in my 100 18x20 and its both spin friendly but also touch friendly with enough power to keep the ball deep.
Hypergxtraspin
New User
I just played with a full bed of Weiss Cannon scorpion 1.22mm in my 18x20, felt really nice and solid. I'm looking for different ideas though, testing alot of stuff. The phantoms feel so soft that even poly doesnt hurt as it does in the RF97A. I may be trying pro line evolution 1.25 in a full bed, or hybrid scorpion mains with tier one firewire crosses.
Finally got out with true match play. (I am massively out of form right now, and definitely out of shape.)
That note aside, I just wasn’t feeling it. I try to be wise about what goes on my Murtaugh List these days. And frankly I’m too old for the much lower powered rackets.
Weight seemed fine - didn’t find it to be too much. Loved the flex.
But....
I just have to come to terms with the fact that I love my PP100P. The plow and controllable power is just noticeably there with it. I used to love dense string patterns, but I think the semi-open pattern of the rest of the Phamtom line, have made me feel home.
That note aside, I just wasn’t feeling it. I try to be wise about what goes on my Murtaugh List these days. And frankly I’m too old for the much lower powered rackets.
Weight seemed fine - didn’t find it to be too much. Loved the flex.
But....
I just have to come to terms with the fact that I love my PP100P. The plow and controllable power is just noticeably there with it. I used to love dense string patterns, but I think the semi-open pattern of the rest of the Phamtom line, have made me feel home.
2nd Serve Ace
Hall of Fame
I don't think it's the string pattern. I would like the phantom pro bumped to 60-62 Ra and it would then be a real force.
Why would they do the 93 at 61 but the 100 at 55?
Prince has got a lot of good features but aren't putting them together well in specific frames so much.
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Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
well I'm going to use the PP100 18x20 for my Masters tournament next week. Been playing practice doubles all week with my partner and it probably is the best overall frame for doubles. Doesn't serve as well as my 93p but I just stay in so many points because of its maneuverability and forgiveness at the net.
If I was entering a tourney where I was better than others, the 93p would be the stick. But when I’m facing 4.0-5.0 players, I’m going to need a little forgiveness.
If I was entering a tourney where I was better than others, the 93p would be the stick. But when I’m facing 4.0-5.0 players, I’m going to need a little forgiveness.
Kurt0707
Rookie
Hi, I had a similar experience, so I decided to have gut strings and also a little tape on the hoop, what is your setup and have you experimented with strings/hoop tape?
It was just a demo, so I left it stock with an overgrip. If it were mine, I’d probably go with a full bed of something at 17; I’d possibly even try Prince Lightening to see about the power (or a multi like Vel., PPC, or Multifeel). I’d go for a little weight at 3 and 9 for plow - but my concern is that the weight is close to the edge.
One (of many things) I like about my PP100p is since it’s polarized, it already feels heavy, but I can add weight without it feeling much heavier. For instance my PP100p setup is minimal with a little additional weight on the throat that adds stability.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
Interestingly, the TWU Racquet Analyzer says this is a relatively powerful racquet. For example it's rated as just slightly more powerful than the Ultra 100. The tool seems to place a lot of emphasis on static weight and swing weight; I've never quite figured out how it corresponds to the real world.
Hypergxtraspin
New User
I've been using a full bed of WC scorpion 1.22 and the power is definitely there. To me about the same as the RF97. I have more mph on serve with this stick probably because its swing speed is much faster. So much I may go back to a shaped low power poly
Would be hard for Prince to pony up the cash to get them to move away from Yonex, plus I’d imagine Yonex have had them stitched up since their junior days.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Spent a little more time with it today. Early impression is that I'm not liking it as much as the Ultra Tour, but I should have another session or two this week before sending them back. Bit more of a loopier trajectory I think..even with my flatter swings. Really soft feel though. I dunno how to describe it, but I barely feel any vibrations from the frame whatsoever. The main thing though... I added weight to the Ultra Tour at 12 which made a huge difference in terms of power. Like I'd feel more confident swinging that than the Phantom. Could add weight to the Phantom also, but I get the feeling that it might start getting a bit too heavy at that point. I'm not sure.
Although one issue is that I started developing a blister today on my heel pad. Have never gotten a blister/callus there, it's always been the knuckle under my middle finger. So I'm not sure if the grip shape + smaller grip size is contributing there. Could have been from the Ultra Tour also, but I dunno.
Although one issue is that I started developing a blister today on my heel pad. Have never gotten a blister/callus there, it's always been the knuckle under my middle finger. So I'm not sure if the grip shape + smaller grip size is contributing there. Could have been from the Ultra Tour also, but I dunno.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I put in some weight at 12 o'clock. Just 3 gms. I'm thinking of a little more at 10 and 2 o'clock but it definitely helps to add some weight near the tip to improve the way it swings. Of course I've played with my friends Ultra Tour stock and I'd add weight to the tip of that thing too.
Anything to get the SW closer to 330-335.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
I'm serious enough about this frame now to have 2 of them. My second checked in at only 315g but exactly 12pt HL unstrung -- clearly the final QC guy prioritized the balance over the weight. Oh well, at this point I'm pretty much used to customizing my frames to match when I buy them separately anyway.
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
Hello all I wanted to share my recent experience with 4 demos I got.
I picked (all in poly)
PP100 18x20
PP100 Pro
TT 100P Tour
TT 100 tour 16x18
Few comments first, I am a 4.0 player, mostly doubles with a 2H backhand and enjoy baseline play and rely on my big serve for some free points. For past 4 years I’ve consistently played with a weighted up Prince Graphite 100 with leather grips and weight at 10 and 2 to keep balance same and SW close to 328-330.
My one frustration with TW demo program is lack of grip sizes and the need to use up
A lot of over grips, but even that requires a lot to bring a 4 3/8 closer to 4 5/8 or so
This was my second time demoing the PP100 pro but used poly this time.
I hit with the PP100pro 18x20 for a 75 minute warm up prior to a singles match yesterday. The warmup with my friend we were hitting hard and rallying for points and the feel and control of this racquet were electric. I could hit big with little fear of hitting long. Good mechanics and prep were rewarded even more so. Occasionally we’d break a little and I tried the other racquets which probably for consistency wasn’t the best idea however they all felt too powerful after that with similar strokes. Even the PP100pro felt unstable and almost too powerful. The tour models, especially the 16x18 felt too light and hard to control the power, so back to the PP 18x20.
30 minute break prior to match and decided to use the PP18x20. Warm up felt awesome still and even warmup serves had pace and spin when needed. First set was easily one of my best starts I’ve ever had with great control and the power that was allowing winners but not forcing me to be tentative with swinging full and big. I was up 5-2 against a strong pusher. Ended up getting broken but took set 6-4. As set was winding down I was beginning to fatigue some. Lost the second set handily although good shots were being made but noticed my serve which I rely on was becoming more inconsistent and MPH were down noticably. Ended up losing third set tie breaker and started having confidence issues if i could finish matches with this stick? Perhaps my warmup was too long and intense.
Played again today hitting around and testing the racquets but kept always going back to PP 18x20. It honestly felt for me the only racquet where the power could be controlled on bigger semi western grip rips.
Though I did notice on serve it was a little challenging again for pace. This is where you feel weight of the racquet most.
The TW review that came out today kinda got the serve part right on, though I’d disagree with low power rating and the average ground stroke score.
The TT Tour 100p feels decent too but none compare stability wise in my humble opinion to the PP 100 pro 18x20.
Perhaps the weight in hoop fixes some of this?
I’d be happy to answer questions on these racquets with my few days using. I have a doubles match with some 3.5 and 4.0 guys tomorrow and plan to use the PP 100 pro 18x20. I may add that weight to hoop?
The other thing I’ve been thinking about is coming from 16x18 in my graphite 100s to 18x20 just feels better. Haven’t played with an 18x20 regularly for 5+ years but maybe remember why I used to.
I picked (all in poly)
PP100 18x20
PP100 Pro
TT 100P Tour
TT 100 tour 16x18
Few comments first, I am a 4.0 player, mostly doubles with a 2H backhand and enjoy baseline play and rely on my big serve for some free points. For past 4 years I’ve consistently played with a weighted up Prince Graphite 100 with leather grips and weight at 10 and 2 to keep balance same and SW close to 328-330.
My one frustration with TW demo program is lack of grip sizes and the need to use up
A lot of over grips, but even that requires a lot to bring a 4 3/8 closer to 4 5/8 or so
This was my second time demoing the PP100 pro but used poly this time.
I hit with the PP100pro 18x20 for a 75 minute warm up prior to a singles match yesterday. The warmup with my friend we were hitting hard and rallying for points and the feel and control of this racquet were electric. I could hit big with little fear of hitting long. Good mechanics and prep were rewarded even more so. Occasionally we’d break a little and I tried the other racquets which probably for consistency wasn’t the best idea however they all felt too powerful after that with similar strokes. Even the PP100pro felt unstable and almost too powerful. The tour models, especially the 16x18 felt too light and hard to control the power, so back to the PP 18x20.
30 minute break prior to match and decided to use the PP18x20. Warm up felt awesome still and even warmup serves had pace and spin when needed. First set was easily one of my best starts I’ve ever had with great control and the power that was allowing winners but not forcing me to be tentative with swinging full and big. I was up 5-2 against a strong pusher. Ended up getting broken but took set 6-4. As set was winding down I was beginning to fatigue some. Lost the second set handily although good shots were being made but noticed my serve which I rely on was becoming more inconsistent and MPH were down noticably. Ended up losing third set tie breaker and started having confidence issues if i could finish matches with this stick? Perhaps my warmup was too long and intense.
Played again today hitting around and testing the racquets but kept always going back to PP 18x20. It honestly felt for me the only racquet where the power could be controlled on bigger semi western grip rips.
Though I did notice on serve it was a little challenging again for pace. This is where you feel weight of the racquet most.
The TW review that came out today kinda got the serve part right on, though I’d disagree with low power rating and the average ground stroke score.
The TT Tour 100p feels decent too but none compare stability wise in my humble opinion to the PP 100 pro 18x20.
Perhaps the weight in hoop fixes some of this?
I’d be happy to answer questions on these racquets with my few days using. I have a doubles match with some 3.5 and 4.0 guys tomorrow and plan to use the PP 100 pro 18x20. I may add that weight to hoop?
The other thing I’ve been thinking about is coming from 16x18 in my graphite 100s to 18x20 just feels better. Haven’t played with an 18x20 regularly for 5+ years but maybe remember why I used to.
Great write-up of your demo experience. I'm keeping close tab of the PP18x20 because I feel at times my 93P18x20 is at my limit of SW/static weight, and the PP18x20 seems like a good sweet spot to aim for.
With regards to service power, I believe a tweak in string set-up is all you need. Either lowering the overall string tensions or change to gut/poly set-up and you should be golden.
Kurt0707
Rookie
Thank you for this, and I though I would also share my experiences... I have now used PP 18x20 for several weeks in singles and doubles, after using TT100P (2015) for several years now after many many years from competitive college tennis.
TT100P was giving me some wrist/arm ache recently also that I recently suffered from TE (but from traveling and carrying heavy carry-ons) and I also wanted something with more control, especially that I am now playing more doubles... so that's the reason I was very excited about PP18x20. I also tried the 16x18 but it was too spiny for my game and not enough stable, despite being lots of fun. I switched the grip on my TT100p to shock grip and added some lead at 10&2 for stability/plow and now they come to around similar specs to PP18x20 - 340g weight and around 330 SW, I also have some tape on PP100. This made TT100P less maneuverable than before but more stable and comfortable.
When I play singles, I find PP18x20 very good in many areas, control/stability/forgiving/comfort/groundstrokes/slices and not that less powerful than TT100p, and it sounds great. I feel more confident not to overshoot balls but still get penetrating top-spin shots. Slices are great. The only time I really miss or come back to TT100P is on serves really, especially for first flat serves, but again I have gut/poly on my TT100P and only syngut on my PP18x20.
Surprisingly, I didn't find PP18x20 very suited to doubles, great drop-shots but my volleys were not precise, and landed in the net when weaker shots came in, and serves not very strong enough. In a recent game, when I switched to TT100p in a doubles match, I played much better and did less unforced mistakes, but still sometimes overshot due to less control too much power.
I actually ordered the 93p for doubles now, having heard so much about it, it is not a light racquet and I will should work on my strength/arm more to handle this. I will still keep the PP18x20 for comfortable/leasure singles plays and for doubles for a more forgiving 93p.
Look forward to your experience on doubles too.. its probably just me than the racquet
Thx
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
Not sure it’s so much a string issue and while I do agree I’d normally hybrid this racquet the sluggish serving later in match could be balance issue maybe or just needs some help at 12’oclock.
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
Thanks for feedback!Thank you for this, and I though I would also share my experiences... I have now used PP 18x20 for several weeks in singles and doubles, after using TT100P (2015) for several years now after many many years from competitive college tennis.
TT100P was giving me some wrist/arm ache recently also that I recently suffered from TE (but from traveling and carrying heavy carry-ons) and I also wanted something with more control, especially that I am now playing more doubles... so that's the reason I was very excited about PP18x20. I also tried the 16x18 but it was too spiny for my game and not enough stable, despite being lots of fun. I switched the grip on my TT100p to shock grip and added some lead at 10&2 for stability/plow and now they come to around similar specs to PP18x20 - 340g weight and around 330 SW, I also have some tape on PP100. This made TT100P less maneuverable than before but more stable and comfortable.
When I play singles, I find PP18x20 very good in many areas, control/stability/forgiving/comfort/groundstrokes/slices and not that less powerful than TT100p, and it sounds great. I feel more confident not to overshoot balls but still get penetrating top-spin shots. Slices are great. The only time I really miss or come back to TT100P is on serves really, especially for first flat serves, but again I have gut/poly on my TT100P and only syngut on my PP18x20.
Surprisingly, I didn't find PP18x20 very suited to doubles, great drop-shots but my volleys were not precise, and landed in the net when weaker shots came in, and serves not very strong enough. In a recent game, when I switched to TT100p in a doubles match, I played much better and did less unforced mistakes, but still sometimes overshot due to less control too much power.
I actually ordered the 93p for doubles now, having heard so much about it, it is not a light racquet and I will should work on my strength/arm more to handle this. I will still keep the PP18x20 for comfortable/leasure singles plays and for doubles for a more forgiving 93p.
Look forward to your experience on doubles too.. its probably just me than the racquet
Thx
I really think my love for the PP18x20 so far is because of the fear of not over hitting. By no means do I claim my technique is perfect but for my bigger swing the 18x20 really takes the cake. The tour models seemed unstable and too powerful in stock form where I’d have to always worry about over hitting.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
maybe try gut/poly in the PP10018x20? That might up your feel and precision for doubles. I can put volleys on a dime with my 18x20. It's easily my best volleying racket.
Kurt0707
Rookie
I totally agree and share the same feeling about this... please also do share your doubles experience..
thx
Kurt0707
Rookie
Thats a good idea and I plan to, yes all reviews/feedbacks were great on volleys.. I had natural gut/poly on my tt100p and it does work really well of volleys too... what would be your thoughts on the lbs/kgs for the 18x20? Thinking of maybe 46-47lbs mains & 49/50 crosses...
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
55/50 is what I'm doing with 17g gut and 19g Ghostwire crosses.
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
Do you feel you are sacrificing some control or ability to hit bigger with the gut in there?
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
The tight stringbed and the low power nature of the frame means I can pretty much hit out and still stay inside the lines. That being said i was sending balls long in a recent tournament match. But it was mostly because I was late swinging (coming from clay to hard courts and playing guys a good 0.5 NTRP higher than me). As I got accustomed to the pace, my form returned and all was good again.
But as i've said this is my doubles racket and I play 2 Up doubles so I'm not hitting a lot of baseline strokes. If I'm stuck at the baseline, I prefer to have the 93P in my hands. The PP100 18x20 is an excellent forecourt racket in my hands. Other results may vary.
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
Played doubles tonight and tried to keep using the PP18x20 and struggled still with serving. Part I know is mental from my fading performance using this on Monday with singles. I’m beginning to wonder perhaps if the PP100P may be the better transition from the Graphite 100 I’ve used last 4 years.
The PP100 Pro just feels too light and unstable after using the 18x20.
The two tour models offer ample power but I’m too tentative to swing out with these as they feel too powerful almost. I still will try to get out once more and hit and hopefully come to some consensus. Really disappointed in my performance today after what was the brief honeymoon period on Monday for few hours with the 18x20. I’ll keep at it.
The PP100 Pro just feels too light and unstable after using the 18x20.
The two tour models offer ample power but I’m too tentative to swing out with these as they feel too powerful almost. I still will try to get out once more and hit and hopefully come to some consensus. Really disappointed in my performance today after what was the brief honeymoon period on Monday for few hours with the 18x20. I’ll keep at it.
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