Deon Sanders
Legend
Most overrated player in history never mind on just clay
He certainly did benefit the most from the weakest era
But most overrated of all time is still 6 real slam Ned
Most overrated player in history never mind on just clay
Doesn't really matter my ass. Nadal has 10 more RG than Djokovic. Why hasn't Djokovic won 4 or 5 RG? Nadal is the superior RG player, so the Djokovic was "mentally weak" is just an excuse. The fact that Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic 6-1 at RG illustrated that superiority of Nadal at RG.
10 extra RG = it doesn't suit my argument so I ignore it.I am considering how they match-up with each other, which requires a little more thought than the brain dead analysis of their title count. You said:
"Djokovic doesn't match up well against Nadal on clay at RG."
This conclusion can only be based on the results of their RG matches in 2013 and 2014.
Novak didn't record a single win on clay against Nadal until 2011. So, yes, their matches before that are meaningless when dissecting your point.
In 2012, Novak got routined by Nadal both times they met in the clay Masters.
The ONLY years Novak under-performed against Nadal at RG compared to his Masters matches with him were 2013 and 2014. 2013 he clearly got tight and in 2014 he won the 1st set. Novak has lost only 3 matches to Nadal after winning the 1st set. The others were:
2009 Madrid: Lost 3-6 7-6(5) 7-6(9) (doesn't get any closer)
2007 Wimbledon: 3-6 6-1 4-1 RET (doesn't even count)
Since hitting his prime, he has lost only ONE match to Nadal after winning the 1st set and the other 2 weren't exactly decisive. Clearly also the result of nerves like 2014.
10 extra RG = it doesn't suit my argument so I ignore it.
2006, 2007 and 2008? = those years don't suit my argument so I ignore them.
i know the answer to that question!Most overrated player in history never mind on just clay
I’d give that title to Michael JordanMost overrated player in history never mind on just clay
Disagree. He smashes racket say a lot about how much he want to win.Dude, the guy just lost a quarters of a masters. He ain't caring that much about that kind of tournament nowadays, just like Novak lost to Bautista in Doha and trashed everyone in Melbourne. Let's wait until Paris to see if this is just a slump or the guy is saving himself for the biggest tournaments.
Is Djokovic's current level overrated on clay?
So you think Federer or Djokovic would be stopped in another era?Both Federer and Djokvoic are overrated on clay by people who constantly harp on the "without Nadal" logic which is flawed in itself, and also overlooks what a horrifically weak clay era with no depth (along with Nadal of course) both played in to begin with.
So you Federer or Djokovic would be stopped in another era?
Juan Carlos Ferrero was the main force in RG in 2002-2003. Was he going to stop Federer and Djokovic? Doubt it.
Gustavo Kuerten was the main force in RG 1999-2001. Was he going to stop Federer and Djokovic? Maybe some year, but not in every single RG match, also his career was pretty short.
Andre Agassi was the main force in RG in 1999. Was he going to stop Federer and Djokovic? Doubt it.
Thomas Muster was the main force in RG in 1995. Was he going to stop Federer and Djokovic? Doubt it.
Muster was absolutely incomparable to Nadal, he was much worse. Thus, I believe Federer and Djokovic would destroy him just like they would destroy Ferrero, who is also in a completely different league than Nadal.Kuerten would definitely beat Federer and probably Djokovic most of the time. Hip crippled Kuerten ripped peak Federer apart their one meeting at RG.
Ferrero would more than hold his own against both. Agassi and Muster would score some wins for sure. Every other era had with this era has none of on clay and grass too for that matter; depth.
Kuerten would definitely beat Federer and probably Djokovic most of the time. Hip crippled Kuerten ripped peak Federer apart their one meeting at RG.
Ferrero would more than hold his own against both. Agassi and Muster would score some wins for sure. Every other era had with this era has none of on clay and grass too for that matter; depth.
In 2004 we can't talk about peak Federer at RG.He was much better in 2005-2012 period at RG and I can say that even 2015 RG Fed was better than 2004 version.Prior to 2005 he was good on clay only in BO3.
Muster was absolutely incomparable to Nadal, he was much worse. Thus, I believe Federer and Djokovic would destroy him just like they would destroy Ferrero, who is also in a completely different league than Nadal.
Agassi? Maybe some match, but most matches would be won by Fedovic. Remember Agassi only made 3 RG finals, while Federer made 5 RG finals and Djokovic 4.
Kuerten was a very good clay player, but he retired at age 27, so he wouldn't have stopped Federer and Djokovic fromm winning RG.
In sum, other than Kuerten, Lendl and Borg, I don't see any player from any other era able to stop prime Federer and Djokovic at RG.
Is Djokovic's current level overrated on clay? Last year he lost to Checcinato at RG, and people said he has not at his best. Sure? Nadal lost to Müller at WB 2017 and no one said Nadal was not at his best. Checcinato is a clay specialist who played really well and defeated not only Djokovic but also Goffin. So I think Djokovic's current level on clay is that.
When Djokovic was at his absolute prime on clay he could challenge prime Nadal at RG (remember 2013). But Djokovic is (almost) 32 and now the decline should be more noticieable on his worst surface.
He's a hard court player who can do well on clay. It's his worst surface by far, though.
The volley Djokovic missed was not even break point so it is not clear whether Djokovic would have broken Nadal and eventually won the match anyway.
Also, it was not a "mental mistake" but a technical one. Djokovic has never been an excellent volleyer. He also missed an easy volley against Nadal in the Olympics 2008 semifinal, which costed him the match.
I thought he was a break up at the time and lost his serve that game. I feel though he doesnt have great overheads it's often caused by nerves. I think that point broke him mentally as well as game wise.
I mean Nadal is the better clay player but there are a couple of occasions where nole has had the game to beat Nadal on the day but the difference has been mental. Same as AO 2012, Nadal had the game to beat Djokovic but had a mental lapse which caused him to put a forehand wide
Overall though nadal just performs better at RG
Actually they are underratedCompared to the Nadal everyone is overrated on clay, even Fedr and Djoko.
Not in a million yearsAnd now Nadal is about to lose to Pella. .
Djokovic seems to have a bit of a mental thing about Roland Garros. Similarily at the U.S Open for awhile. That is his balanced some by his probably overperforming at Wimbledon. It is still hard to believe he already has more Wimbledon titles than Becker and McEnroe, I really dont believe he is a better grass courter personally; and he likely isnt even done yet.
Yes. 1 straight sets loss in 114 matches.Maybe Nole is the only player who beat Rafa in straight sets in a best of five sets match on clay.
Fixed it for you.Regardless of how much he's overrated by some of his fans, he's still the 2nd best clay court player behind Nadal.
Maybe Nole is the only player who beat Rafa in straight sets in a best of five sets match on clay.
No doubt Nadal is a better clay court player than Novak or Roger, who also has only one FO title. I do thin, however, that mentality is part of the problem, especially in Federer's case. Still, Novak has a better clay court resume than any other player today, except for Rafa.I am sorry but that sounds like an excuse. Nadal has 11 RG, Djokovic only 1 RG, and you are saying Djokovic lost to Nadal the RG finals because of "mental weakness"? Nadal is also 6-1 against Djokovic at RG, so it doesn't make sense to say that Djokovic match up well against Nadal at RG.
Nadal has not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven, not eight, not nine but ten more RG than Djokovic. A difference of 10 RG suggests that Nadal is much better on clay than Djokovic. To say that Djokovic lost the RG finals against Nadal due to "mental weakness" is an excuse.
Yes. 1 straight sets loss in 114 matches.
I consider 1 in 114 an achievement.Let’s put this into perspective though. In 2015, Rafa had a 26-6 clay record with 5 defeats coming in straight sets (Nole 2x, Murray, Stan and Fog). All he won was Buenos Aires (played only against Argentinians) and Hamburg (vs Fognini).
That’s as many losses as he had from 2005 to 2011 Madrid and you need to count in the whole 2011 to get as many straight set losses. That and the following year were really the dark ages for Rafa so I don’t think you can count it as an achievement - even though I am positive many here will
I consider 1 in 114 an achievement.
Can I ask what you think of Agassi who deliberately lost the 1996 Australian Open semifinal against Chang (revealed in his autobiography Open)?People who think that a champion like Novak are losing on purpose understand nothing about sport. These guys just hate the defeat so much.