Felix v. Denis?

prairiegirl · May 24, 2019

Felix has won. In doing so, he reaches his 2nd ATP final at the age of only 18. I said some months ago he would eclipse Denis this year, and for now, he has. So, I wonder how this will affect their friendship. Will it just be another step in their evolution that they more or less expected? Or, will Denis simply be mature and happy for his friend? At the end of the day they're both fierce competitors and want to be the best, so I can't imagine how it won't affect them in some way. I have also come to accept that for now, Felix is better than Denis. How that plays out over the rest of the year is hard to know, but Denis has another tough draw at FO, while Felix has an easy one. So, Denis will likely not pick up points there. Felix probably will. Then we come to grass and it's anybody's guess what happens there.

Yesterday in an interview, Denis said he was okay with how he played. He said he finds it tough to be patient on clay and tough to be patient in general. He said it's something he's working on. Felix, on the other hand, seems to be naturally more patient.

Thoughts?

InvisibleSoul · May 24, 2019

The only thing that's been a real surprise is how fast Felix adapted to the main tour and shot up the rankings. I mean, nobody really questioned that he would become a top ten player eventually... but I don't think anybody expected him to play like a top ten player this fast.

With his win today, he's currently 11th in the 2019 ATP race. If he doesn't falter and wins the Lyon title tomorrow, he'll be up to #9 in the race to London.

If he keeps up this pace, forget about the Next-Gen finals... he can make the real ATP World Finals.

As talented as Denis is, Felix has always been regarded higher. Their styles are completely different.

Felix looks like he will be the steadier player, and his base game will be more consistent than Denis. Overall, he'll win more.

However, Denis has bigger game, and when he's on, he has more potential to knock out great players than Felix.

BeatlesFan · May 24, 2019

InvisibleSoul said:
As talented as Denis is, Felix has always been regarded higher. Their styles are completely different.

Felix looks like he will be the steadier player, and his base game will be more consistent than Denis. Overall, he'll win more.

However, Denis has bigger game, and when he's on, he has more potential to knock out great players than Felix.

This is a great and succinct analysis. They've both come a long way in just a few years.

Sparlingo · May 24, 2019

How lucky we Canadian tennis fans are to be spoiled with two such rich talents and Andreescu too. All three will be greats, Shapo will be a roller coaster ride. It's already very fun to watch them.

InvisibleSoul · May 24, 2019

Sparlingo said:
How lucky we Canadian tennis fans are to be spoiled with two such rich talents and Andreescu too. All three will be greats, Shapo will be a roller coaster ride. It's already very fun to watch them.

Couldn't agree more.

I'm a Federer fan, through and through... and when he went through his rough patch a few years back, I found myself not following tennis nearly as closely.

I folllowed Raonic, sure... but let's be honest, his matches generally aren't that exciting.

I've been following the rise of FAA and Shapo since they were both juniors, watching some of their Junior GS finals live.

It's a blessing to realize that barring any major unexpected issues, we'll probably be able to enjoy watching these two guys for maybe the next 15 years.

They will certainly help keep my interest in tennis after Federer hangs up his racquet.

prairiegirl · May 24, 2019

IS; I have only followed them recently. I lost interest in tennis for many years. I find it completely uninteresting to watch 2-3 players dominate a sport. For me, it takes all the fun and surprise out of the events. There are a few players I enjoy now including these two. I enjoy Thiem and can even tolerate Tsitsipas. In fact, if there is one player who seems to have a secure future it is Tsitsipas. I say this, even though I don't believe in predictions. I wish the best for all of them, but hate when hype goes into over-drive.

Mark-Touch · May 24, 2019

In a fairy tale land sure it would be great if these guys would remain best of friends throughout their careers, but that's not likely to happen nor is it really
that important.
What is important is for both these guys to continue to develop their games and reach the full potential they each have.
I'm going to make a bold prediction and say Felix will lead the charge and also produce more accomplishments overall than Denis.

prairiegirl · May 24, 2019

Maybe. But, the truth is, none of us have a crystal ball into the future. People said the same about Gasquet, Kyrgios, Raonic, and a whole generation of tennis players. As far as Denis is concerned, not only has he had some spectacular results, he's also spear-headed the Canadian Davis Cup team since the age of 18. So, I'm not worried about his future. Rankings go up and down. Right now, Federer is no. 6 I think. Or he was. I don't think he cares. 18 mos ago Edmund was 14 and now he's 28, I think. Raonic was no. 3 and now he's in the top 20 and will likely never go higher. When he was in the Wimbledon final, there were huge predictions for him. He was the next big star. Same has been said about at least a dozen players. Just watch and enjoy without the endless, meaningless predictions.

Mark-Touch · May 24, 2019

prairiegirl said:
Maybe. But, the truth is, none of us have a crystal ball into the future. People said the same about Gasquet, Kyrgios, Raonic, and a whole generation of tennis players. As far as Denis is concerned, not only has he had some spectacular results, he's also spear-headed the Canadian Davis Cup team since the age of 18. So, I'm not worried about his future. Rankings go up and down. Right now, Federer is no. 6 I think. Or he was. I don't think he cares. 18 mos ago Edmund was 14 and now he's 28, I think. Raonic was no. 3 and now he's in the top 20 and will likely never go higher. When he was in the Wimbledon final, there were huge predictions for him. He was the next big star. Same has been said about at least a dozen players. Just watch and enjoy without the endless, meaningless predictions.

My crystal ball worked just fine with Sampras and Federer.

vernonbc · May 24, 2019

prairiegirl said:
Just watch and enjoy without the endless, meaningless whining.

FIFY

3fees · May 25, 2019

Felix the cat is No 2 in the Race to Milan being a nextgen player, Shap is No 3 trailing Felix. Tsitsipas is No 1 so far ahead of the pack its almost comical.

Cheers
3Fees

WhiskeyEE · May 25, 2019

We are in the part of the season where FAA should out-perform Denis.

Mark-Touch · May 25, 2019

WhiskeyEE said:
We are in the part of the season where FAA should out-perform Denis.

Barring any injuries, no?

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

WhiskeyEE said:
We are in the part of the season where FAA should out-perform Denis.

I don't know what that means. FAA has no real record on grass that I'm aware of. So, we have no idea what to expect of him. And, Denis is a fast-court player, and as a junior he out-performed FAA on HC and grass. I think you and many people are getting way ahead of yourselves. But, carry on.

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

vernonbc said:
FIFY

no idea what that means

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

Mark-Touch said:
My crystal ball worked just fine with Sampras and Federer.

So you say. Everyone is a psychic in the past.

WhiskeyEE · May 25, 2019

prairiegirl said:
I don't know what that means. FAA has no real record on grass that I'm aware of. So, we have no idea what to expect of him. And, Denis is a fast-court player, and as a junior he out-performed FAA on HC and grass. I think you and many people are getting way ahead of yourselves. But, carry on.

FAA has a style that translates better to slower courts. So it is no surprise that he is doing better than Denis so far this year. That does not necessarily mean he will out-perform Denis in the 2nd half. That was my point.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

One point not made yet is that both Felix and Shapo were taken out by an in form and inspired Paire. It raises the question: "would shapo have made the final if he had Felix's draw? Shapo gave Paire a pretty good match going to a tiebreak in the third set.

WhiskeyEE · May 25, 2019

Sparlingo said:
One point not made yet is that both Felix and Shapo were taken out by an in form and inspired Paire. It raises the question: "would shapo have made the final if he had Felix's draw? Shapo gave Paire a pretty good match going to a tiebreak in the third set.

Well Shapo also lost to Novak at the AO (taking a set) and Federer in Miami - the eventual winners. FAA lost to some sub-par opponents during the winter hard court season.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

WhiskeyEE said:
Well Shapo also lost to Novak at the AO (taking a set) and Federer in Miami - the eventual winners. FAA lost to some sub-par opponents during the winter hard court season.

Shapo lost to the eventual winner 7 times in 2018, 7 is a lot:

PLAYER TITLE BEAT DENIS
Borna Coric Davis Cup R1
Frances Tiafoe Delray Beach SF
Alexander Zverev Madrid SF
Rafael Nadal Rome R3
Mischa Zverev Eastbourne QF
Yoshihito Nishioka Shenzhen R3
Daniil Medvedev Tokyo SF

https://shapostories.wordpress.com/2019/02/22/6-degrees-of-shapo/

Mark-Touch · May 25, 2019

prairiegirl said:
So you say. Everyone is a psychic in the past.

No you didn't understand my post.
I was able to predict each of those two players greatness
before they were great.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

Mark-Touch said:
No you didn't understand my post.
I was able to predict each of those two players greatness
before they were great.

I predict Felix and Shapo's future greatness now, for the record. Please review in 20 years.

Mark-Touch · May 25, 2019

Ah but it won't take 20 years dear, that's the thing!
We will know in a mere five years!
I have made a note though.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

Mark-Touch said:
Ah but it won't take 20 years dear, that's the thing!
We will know in a mere five years!
I have made a note though.

Very good, thanks, that therefore greatly reduces the chance that you will forget to review my prediction.

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

Sparlingo said:
Shapo lost to the eventual winner 7 times in 2018, 7 is a lot:

PLAYER TITLE BEAT DENIS
Borna Coric Davis Cup R1
Frances Tiafoe Delray Beach SF
Alexander Zverev Madrid SF
Rafael Nadal Rome R3
Mischa Zverev Eastbourne QF
Yoshihito Nishioka Shenzhen R3
Daniil Medvedev Tokyo SF

https://shapostories.wordpress.com/2019/02/22/6-degrees-of-shapo/

What is your point? Everyone loses to the eventual winner, Duh!

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

Sparlingo said:
I predict Felix and Shapo's future greatness now, for the record. Please review in 20 years.

Thanks but no thanks. Not interested in anyone's predictions. but carry on.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

prairiegirl said:
What is your point? Everyone loses to the eventual winner, Duh!

That seems like a lot of games for the winner of a tournament to play.

prairiegirl said:
Thanks but no thanks. Not interested in anyone's predictions. but carry on.

Oh dear.
.

prairiegirl · May 25, 2019

Predicting greatness and then criticizing someone for losing to the eventual winner. Hmm; great logic, Spock.

Sparlingo · May 25, 2019

prairiegirl said:
Predicting greatness and then criticizing someone for losing to the eventual winner. Hmm; great logic, Spock.

You get me wrong. Perhaps if you go to the article I posted it would make it clearer. To lose to the eventual winner in an earlier round means that but for the bad luck of hitting the eventual winner so many times, Shapo probably would have made it further those times, maybe to the final. Most recent case in point -> Lyon.

prairiegirl · May 29, 2019

Sparlingo said:
One point not made yet is that both Felix and Shapo were taken out by an in form and inspired Paire. It raises the question: "would shapo have made the final if he had Felix's draw? Shapo gave Paire a pretty good match going to a tiebreak in the third set.

Yes, you're absolutely right about that. All we can hope for now is that he has a good summer. But, things aren't looking good. Even in losing to Struff, he couldn't take a single set from him. He's played much better than that on clay in other matches. Ah well. I hope we won't be having this same conversation weeks from now, when we say "what's the matter with Denis?"

AlexSV · May 29, 2019

I think it's

prairiegirl said:
Felix has won. In doing so, he reaches his 2nd ATP final at the age of only 18. I said some months ago he would eclipse Denis this year, and for now, he has. So, I wonder how this will affect their friendship. Will it just be another step in their evolution that they more or less expected? Or, will Denis simply be mature and happy for his friend? At the end of the day they're both fierce competitors and want to be the best, so I can't imagine how it won't affect them in some way. I have also come to accept that for now, Felix is better than Denis. How that plays out over the rest of the year is hard to know, but Denis has another tough draw at FO, while Felix has an easy one. So, Denis will likely not pick up points there. Felix probably will. Then we come to grass and it's anybody's guess what happens there.

Yesterday in an interview, Denis said he was okay with how he played. He said he finds it tough to be patient on clay and tough to be patient in general. He said it's something he's working on. Felix, on the other hand, seems to be naturally more patient.

Thoughts?

If they were going to dislike each other, it would have happened by now. The amount of times they've been competing in the same tournament or played each other, and they're still friends means they are probably going to stay friends.

NaomiKonjuhPotapova · May 29, 2019

prairiegirl said:
Felix has won. In doing so, he reaches his 2nd ATP final at the age of only 18. I said some months ago he would eclipse Denis this year, and for now, he has. So, I wonder how this will affect their friendship. Will it just be another step in their evolution that they more or less expected? Or, will Denis simply be mature and happy for his friend?

I mean, who would have hate sweetie Felix?

It's pretty well known from early Junior days that Felix is more talented than Dennis, he also cuter too so Dennis should be happy even if he ends up as a mainly wing man.

BeatlesFan · May 29, 2019

NaomiKonjuhPotapova said:
I mean, who would have hate sweetie Felix?

It's pretty well known from early Junior days that Felix is more talented than Dennis, he also cuter too so Dennis should be happy even if he ends up as a mainly wing man.

It's "pretty well known" that Felix is cuter than Denis?

I like 'em both, both are cute. But many would put Denis above Felix any day of the week.

helterskelter · May 29, 2019

Mark-Touch said:
Ah but it won't take 20 years dear, that's the thing!
We will know in a mere five years!
I have made a note though.

That is by no means definitely true, and may indeed be rather unlikely. In five years, Shapovalov will have just turned 25, while Auger-Aliassime will be 23 and although his 24th birthday will be approaching, he'll likely still have two Slams in which to make his mark before turning 24. It's rarely true that we have a very good grasp on someone's greatness before they turn 24 - Djokovic had just two Slam titles to his name at that stage. And it's by no means always the case that we have a very strong grasp a month after someone turn's 24 - Murray was still a few weeks away from his first Slam title, Wawrinka was almost four years away from his first. If Shapovalov is a late developer, as most players seem to be these days, we may well not know how good he'll end up being at this point in 2024.

Mark-Touch · May 29, 2019

helterskelter said:
That is by no means definitely true, and may indeed be rather unlikely. In five years, Shapovalov will have just turned 25, while Auger-Aliassime will be 23 and although his 24th birthday will be approaching, he'll likely still have two Slams in which to make his mark before turning 24. It's rarely true that we have a very good grasp on someone's greatness before they turn 24 - Djokovic had just two Slam titles to his name at that stage. And it's by no means always the case that we have a very strong grasp a month after someone turn's 24 - Murray was still a few weeks away from his first Slam title, Wawrinka was almost four years away from his first. If Shapovalov is a late developer, as most players seem to be these days, we may well not know how good he'll end up being at this point in 2024.

OK I'll give you one or two more years if you need them.

I'll be able to tell by five years.

Oh and BTW, we are talking greatness here, not simply multiple slam winners (Murray, Wawrinka).
Someone in another thread rightly coughed when Murray's name was mentioned along with the all-time great players of the past/present.

NaomiKonjuhPotapova · May 29, 2019

BeatlesFan said:
It's "pretty well known" that Felix is cuter than Denis? I like 'em both, both are cute. But many would put Denis above Felix any day of the week.

Pretty well known in the talent wise.

Felix is way cute but I probably need to stop describing his cuteness as it's not age appropriate for me lol.

helterskelter · May 29, 2019

Mark-Touch said:
OK I'll give you one or two more years if you need them.
I'll be able to tell by five years.

Oh and BTW, we are talking greatness here, not simply multiple slam winners (Murray, Wawrinka).
Someone in another thread rightly coughed when Murray's name was mentioned along with the all-time great players of the past/present.

Okay, so what you mean is, "We will know in about five years whether they are going to become all-time greats"? Is that right? If so, I agree that it's likely in Shapovalov's case, may take a year or two longer in Auger-Aliassime's because he's younger, but that it's one thing to know the general tenor of a player's career and another to know "how great they are." When Djokovic was the age FAA will be in five years, we knew he was a great player, but we had no idea how great he'd become.

Mark-Touch · May 29, 2019

helterskelter said:
Okay, so what you mean is, "We will know in about five years whether they are going to become all-time greats"? Is that right? If so, I agree that it's likely in Shapovalov's case, may take a year or two longer in Auger-Aliassime's because he's younger, but that it's one thing to know the general tenor of a player's career and another to know "how great they are." When Djokovic was the age FAA will be in five years, we knew he was a great player, but we had no idea how great he'd become.

Well there are degrees for greatness. Yeah you got my drift by and large.

The Shape-shifter · May 29, 2019

helterskelter said:
That is by no means definitely true, and may indeed be rather unlikely. In five years, Shapovalov will have just turned 25, while Auger-Aliassime will be 23 and although his 24th birthday will be approaching, he'll likely still have two Slams in which to make his mark before turning 24. It's rarely true that we have a very good grasp on someone's greatness before they turn 24 - Djokovic had just two Slam titles to his name at that stage. And it's by no means always the case that we have a very strong grasp a month after someone turn's 24 - Murray was still a few weeks away from his first Slam title, Wawrinka was almost four years away from his first. If Shapovalov is a late developer, as most players seem to be these days, we may well not know how good he'll end up being at this point in 2024.

Within the next five years, at least we will be able to identify the next ATGs. Murray and Waw are no ATGs.

helterskelter · May 29, 2019

The Shape-shifter said:
Within the next five years, at least we will be able to identify the next ATGs. Murray and Waw are no ATGs.

Okay, that's what I thought @Mark-Touch meant and he seems to confirm. I'm not sure five years is enough, at least in the case of FAA. It wasn't obvious that Djokovic would be an all-time great until after his 24th birthday, in my view. Yes, in the months leading up to it, he went on that very long run. But at the time of his 24th birthday, he'd only won two Slams, both at the same venue. Only when he followed up with Wimbledon and the US Open to make it a three-Slam year did he fully confirm it. In any case, even if FAA were to exactly match Djokovic, it wouldn't be clear he'd be an all-time great until the very end of the five-year period.

Then again, I don't think any young player on tour is likely to match any of Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic. But, to be fair, FAA is probably the least unlikely to do so.

prairiegirl · May 30, 2019

Some very interesting thoughts so far. I'm not really interested in whether or not Felix or Denis will be an ATG. The likelihood is pretty low in my opinion. I'm more interested in what we might see from them in the next few years. Denis' game seems to be taking a lot longer to develop than I originally thought it would. That seems due to some erratic coaching changes. But, it also seems to be due to two major flaws in his game - the ROS and the ability to adapt in a match. Felix does both of these much better than Denis at this point. Felix is also more consistent. The question is, what's preventing Denis from achieving some of the same results as Felix?

Mark-Touch · May 30, 2019

prairiegirl said:
Felix does both of these much better than Denis at this point. Felix is also more consistent. The question is, what's preventing Denis from achieving some of the same results as Felix?

PG, you seem to look at players (especially Canadian ones who you are partial to) as if they are obliged to be something special.
And if they fail to live up to your expectations, then there MUST be something wrong with their:

a) coach
b) strategy
c) ???

Did it ever occur to you that Shap might not deliver in the end because of OTHER reasons?

prairiegirl · May 30, 2019

No, I don't want them to be something special. I think they already are. No one is failing to live up to my expectations. Maybe I haven't expressed this well. I think a batch of young players are the future of men's tennis - Tsitsipas, Thiem, Medvedev, Coric, and hopefully, Shapovalov and FAA. But, at this stage, Shapovalov is the only one who's never made it into a final. That doesn't mean he won't, but he just hasn't yet. So, to a small degree he is lagging behind. FAA and the others are far more consistent than he. That could be for lots of reasons but his coaching situation and lack of adapting in matches has been mentioned a lot in various discussions and by TV commentators. What other reasons are there?

Mark-Touch · May 30, 2019

prairiegirl said:
That doesn't mean he won't, but he just hasn't yet. So, to a small degree he is lagging behind. FAA and the others are far more consistent than he. That could be for lots of reasons but his coaching situation and lack of adapting in matches has been mentioned a lot in various discussions and by TV commentators. What other reasons are there?

I think you answered your own question. Look at bold.

rushhr · May 30, 2019

this thread is an exercise in splitting pubic hairs

prairiegirl · May 30, 2019

Denis has said himself these are the things he needs to fix:

ROS
More patience on court

If he can master those, I think he can do very well
How about Paul Annacone or Stefan Edberg as coach?

Felix v. Denis?

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